Fahrenheit 9-11

[OceanDude]

No sucker punch thrown here OD. I made a wager, put it out, and YOU responded. Now you cry as you try to escape the "street fight" you involved yourself in. When you open your mouth and put forth your overvalued opinions OD you should be at the very least able to defend them. I expected no more from you OD really. You are like a pop-song that almost sounds good but doesn't really ever say shit.

My wager still stands ... with no Bush fan able to step up.

BC are you are so full of yourself that you think I was responding to you? Hello? You did not start this thread - so stop trying to hijack it. Robert started this thread and I made general comments to "the thread". Your "wager" or whatever you call it frankly escaped my attention - simply because I don't think you are very relevant to most discussions and I rarely take you seriously. So don't try to make yourself feel important my asserting that I responded to you - I did not. I didn't hardly even notice you in this thread until you started your typical personal attacks on me. You have been doing this with me ever since you disgraced yourself silly in another thread last week when you started the same kiddie crap in with me.

Now run along and go play with someone else and let the big boys have their fun...

OD

 

[maniclion]

Well I appreciate that, and I think we are closer, idealogically, than I first thought. I am not a huge fan of Ralph Nader, although he has his positive qualities. He's not my ideal candidate, but his criticism of Bush has turned my eye toward him.

Without changing the purpose of this thread - let me just say this quickly. I wholeheartedly believe that a Libertarian president would be the best for our nation. He has a great page detailing his position for many types of advocates. http://badnarik.org/whybadnarik.php Just check it out, youll know what I mean. Badnarik hasn't been as loud as I would like, but I do like him and most the libertarian stance.

I am not in a battleground state, CT will undoubtedly go to Kerry. I will be voting Libertarian, and I urge many people in non-battleground states to do the same. When more people vote 3rd party, the Reps&Dems will take notice and slowly but surely change their ways. Hawaii is Super-Democratic, Maui is like the hippie capital of America. I want to believe that after this election people will want more selection than between the lesser of "2 evils". I plan on being very, very active in supporting third parties in local gov. I think once that starts it will shake the foundation of the 2 party system and knock some of those from the top to make room for alternatives.

Youve changed how I see you, Manic. I appreciate the fact that you are watching our government and angered over misguided policies. More importantly, I appreciate the fact that you haven't just kept an eye on Bush, but also Clinton. Ever since I heard Ross Perot at 15 I saw that there are options to Republican and Democrat, watching him in interviews and debates opened my mind to the fact that America was "daydreaming of our past while the rest of the world was building its future." in his words

 

[BoneCrusher]

BC are you are so full of yourself that you think I was responding to you? Hello? You did not start this thread - so stop trying to hijack it. Robert started this thread and I made general comments to "the thread". Your "wager" or whatever you call it frankly escaped my attention - simply because I don't think you are very relevant to most discussions and I rarely take you seriously. So don't try to make yourself feel important my asserting that I responded to you - I did not. I didn't hardly even notice you in this thread until you started your typical personal attacks on me. You have been doing this with me ever since you disgraced yourself silly in another thread last week when you started the same kiddie crap in with me.

Now run along and go play with someone else and let the big boys have their fun...

OD

You have made the mistake of thinking I care about your insults to me and continue to offer more insults yet still no substance OD. You call your self a big boy. Debate the issue like a big boy instead of insulting me and running away. I don???t think you have the width of knowledge to deal with what has come out on the entire Bush crew over the last few months. You don???t avoid me for my lack relevancy in any thread; you avoid me because you lack the skill to involve your self in an actual debate on an issue. A debate where facts are sourced and rhetoric is useless would not be fair for you because for all your verbage your perspectives contain no factual substance only your lofty opinion and the same conceited mockery of your fellow IM members. You have positioned yourself poorly by posting abrasive comments about those of us who follow the events on Bush and are now left with no defense BUT disdain and invective. I expect no better in whatever response is forthcoming from you than another lame attempt at caustic dismissal. I would hope that you have more than that though???

BTW ... you did come in here and post and thus invited people to comment on that post. I merely pointed out the lack of content without insulting you and asked for substance.

 

[Stickboy]

I'll repost this since no-one has taken me up on it. Milli, Busy, Stick, DG, Duncans, any and all Bush fans .... put up or shut up time is at hand. We have been dorking around the issues for several months now. Hundreds of valid sourced reports have been posted here. If you ignored these posts because you were so well informed ... cool. But now you can get me to kiss your ass right here on this thread and vote Bush by taking this bet.

OOpps. I had forgotten about that. You should have PM'd me to remind me.

It's illegal to offer your vote in a bet or whatnot.

You want us to argue against the premise of the movie, correct? Since a premise is basically a conclusion before the facts (an assumption), the fact that he formed his opinion based on half-facts (that he himself [Moore] manuipulated in the film) doesn't warrant a big explanation.

He lied in his movie to present his views (again, his assumptions) on what he THOUGHT was going on - nevermind that film, tape, and first hand written reports (facts) undermine what he presented in the movie.


WTF did I just say?

 

[Stickboy]

Exactly again, and that is one thing that the movie focused on, obviously there is no proof, but all of the stuff about the Carlyle Group was sure interesting! www.thecarlylegroup.com

And I had know idea that the Saudi's have almost 1 trillion dollars invested in America, which if they pulled it all out our economy would certainly cripple.

Actually, it's not that high. Even if you believe Ungers $860 billion figure, the sources he used in his book (House of Bush, House of Saud) don't support that figure.

Moore goes on to claim that the Saudis own "7% of America". It can't be both numbers (Unger and Moore) because the Saudis only own about 7% of total FOREIGN investment. Foreign investment is about 10 tillion dollars right now. Foreigners would have to own all of American for Moore's figures to be correct.

Nevertheless, if the Saudis pulled all their money out, it would be but a burp in the economy. Moore presented this figure as a total amount when it was really only a foreign investment percentage. It's not 7% of the total investment.

Nevermind that folks such as George Soros are investors in the Carlyle Group. (Note: He's a big Anti-Bush guy). Nevermind that the Bin Ladens dropped out before the stock sale. Nevermind the Bush Administration hammered the Carlyle Group by cancelling the Crusader missle. (This was a huge blow to the group).

Not too hard to check this stuff folks.

 

[OceanDude]

You have made the mistake of thinking I care about your insults to me and continue to offer more insults yet still no substance OD. You call your self a big boy. Debate the issue like a big boy instead of insulting me and running away. I don???t think you have the width of knowledge to deal with what has come out on the entire Bush crew over the last few months. You don???t avoid me for my lack relevancy in any thread; you avoid me because you lack the skill to involve your self in an actual debate on an issue. A debate where facts are sourced and rhetoric is useless would not be fair for you because for all your verbage your perspectives contain no factual substance only your lofty opinion and the same conceited mockery of your fellow IM members. You have positioned yourself poorly by posting abrasive comments about those of us who follow the events on Bush and are now left with no defense BUT disdain and invective. I expect no better in whatever response is forthcoming from you than another lame attempt at caustic dismissal. I would hope that you have more than that though???

BTW ... you did come in here and post and thus invited people to comment on that post. I merely pointed out the lack of content without insulting you and asked for substance.

Listen BC, I only peeked into this thread to take a few intellectual swipes at reason on the original thread posting that had the ridiculous notion of spending money to get an ???objective??? insight and fund the propaganda for someone that hates the country. I did not intend to get into a month long debate on the morality and justification for war. That???s what it would take and you and I will not change positions at its conclusion so I am not bothering. If you feel the need to fight go fight terrorists. But after all your conniptions and pontificating I had to go find ???The Wager???, as you put it, and see what profound thing you have said that we are all running from. I hate getting sucked into this kind of nonsense just so you can feel like you made some kind of point.

Here is what I think is the crux of what you are all agitated about:

That Premise is that BushCo (not Bush but the entire crew) is after oil in that region and has shaped our perceptions of world events to aid his crew in accessing that oil.

Is this it? Is this the big debate? Is this the single thing that has you all foaming at the mouth and ready to bet the farm over? Is it this thing about ???oil??? that concerns you and that somehow this war is not justified? I need to understand what it is you are objecting to here because if you think that is all we are really in Iraq for, ???the oil???, I really don???t have the patience to hand hold you through the analysis of this phobia. Use some common sense. Do you think anyone really cares or doubts that oil is not part of our national interest? Are you that naïve? Get over it ??? what do you think Democrats tax to make income on? It???s Oil, Cars, Labor, Prostitutes, Sex, Stupidity, anything they can count and tax. Are you so naive to think that Kerry would not go to war over oil too? Come now ??? please don???t go into conniptions over this. We are not in elementary school here where we all think the world is fair, friendly, and always looking after the good ol??? USA???s interests. You just don???t seem to get it ??? most of the Middle East hates the west at large (not just the USA) and the planet is in a massive world war against competing ideologies and values. Wake up and smell the coffee and take off your rose coloured glasses. This country would be shut down inside of two weeks if we lost mid-east oil and we would be forced to set the whole region on fire if they refused to deal with us. In the old days nations would simply take over countries that got in the way of national interests. But that???s not how Americans play ??? we take out the tyrants and give back countries. Do you know who would be right out in the streets demanding that we do just this if oil was stopped? It would be those lil ol democratic blue collar social security retirees. They would demand Arab blood if they could not get gas for their Chryslers. They would be the first to call for an all out attack. So please let???s be real and adult about what the world is about and what the stakes are.

So why debate something that is irrelevant to anything? Most liberals in this country as well as women support Bush (ref: http://noleftturns.ashbrook.org/comment.asp?blogID=5060) so why don???t you? We are in the Middle East because we failed to be there 30 years ago when all this Arab Terrorism and fundamentalism initially started to form. We are there because they intend to undermine our society and kill us. We are there because they are using oil as an economic weapon. We are there because we need a presence and a friendly country to balance out and moderate the lunatics and the fundamentalists who want to slaughter westerners. We are there because of massive human rights violations. We are there because they treat women and non-Muslims like animals. We are there because we have no other choice and the world as we all know it is going to be changing dramatically soon. We are there because some people would rather self denigrate our country and help the enemy and put money in their own pockets with propaganda films and make it harder to win this war. We are there because of naivety.

Bottom Line: We are in Iraq because it???s in our vital national interest to be there. You have to intuitively see that it???s much bigger than oil. We need more than Kerry???s demagoguery and pandering to everyone???s fears and class prejudices to survive what is on the horizon.

Wager declined because it???s irrelevant to anything important.

OD

 

[busyLivin]

damn! very well said OD.

 

[maniclion]

Three reasons for the Iraq Invasion:
- The Cheney energy strategy required Iraqi oil
- American Israel Public Affairs Committee and the Christian right wanted to weaken the Arab world to strengthen Israel
- Donald Rumsfeld wanted to expedite the transformation of the U.S. military.

All in accordance with The Project for a New American Century.

 

[milliman]

Dang,

I take a little old Saturday off to watch my kids play tennis and look what I missed. I would like to build on the OD summary for you BC, but I have to get to bed.

Lion above seems to be on drugs or live in some fantasy world to even make those comments.

I will try to do some of my ranting and big picture pontificating on monday.

And with that I am off . . .

 

[Stickboy]

Three reasons for the Iraq Invasion:
- The Cheney energy strategy required Iraqi oil
- American Israel Public Affairs Committee and the Christian right wanted to weaken the Arab world to strengthen Israel
- Donald Rumsfeld wanted to expedite the transformation of the U.S. military.

All in accordance with The Project for a New American Century.

LOL. Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[min0 lee]

LOL. Where do you come up with this stuff?

even I know it's true



I see

 

[OceanDude]

Three reasons for the Iraq Invasion:
- The Cheney energy strategy required Iraqi oil
- American Israel Public Affairs Committee and the Christian right wanted to weaken the Arab world to strengthen Israel
- Donald Rumsfeld wanted to expedite the transformation of the U.S. military.

All in accordance with The Project for a New American Century.

Hmm, sounds like you are into conspiracy theory. Could it be more simply that this country has a legitimate long term natinal interest over there? You are soundling like there is some super secret agenda and inner club intent on manipulating the world. It's really much much simpler. We need to prevent the Muslims from setting the world on fire so we can live and exist. It really is that simple.

OD

 

[redspy]

Hmm, sounds like you are into conspiracy theory. Could it be more simply that this country has a legitimate long term natinal interest over there? You are soundling like there is some super secret agenda and inner club intent on manipulating the world. It's really much much simpler. We need to prevent the Muslims from setting the world on fire so we can live and exist. It really is that simple.

OD

Manics view isn't conspiracy theory

President Bush formed the energy task force in early 2001 to develop a national energy policy, with Vice President Cheney at the helm. Even though the government heavily censored the documents before supplying them to the public they reveal that Bush administration officials sought extensive advice from utility companies and the oil, gas, coal and nuclear energy industries, and incorporated their recommendations, often word for word, into the energy plan. Essentially industry created our energy policy with their own profit motives in mind. America's demand for oil necessitates domination of at least one country in the region.

Israel and America are almost indistinguishable these days. America goes to great lengths to protect Israel politically and militarily. As an example there have been 40 Security Council resolutions and hundreds of General Assembly resolutions demanding that Israel withdraw from the Palestinian territories as a step toward a Middle East peace but America consistently vetoes anything critical of Israel.

Israel receives $3Bn of aid from the US every year. ???The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion??? is a summary of economic research done by Thomas R. Stauffer. Stauffer???s summary of the research was published in the June 2003 issue of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

A number of the intellectual architects of the Iraq war are not surprising Jewish Neocons. Protecting Israel is of prime importance to this administration. You can trace back Israel's need to remove Saddam back to 1996 with the The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies report entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm. Here are a couple of snippets:-

Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq ??? an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right ??? as a means of foiling Syria???s regional ambitions. Jordan has challenged Syria's regional ambitions recently by suggesting the restoration of the Hashemites in Iraq. This has triggered a Jordanian-Syrian rivalry to which Asad has responded by stepping up efforts to destabilize the Hashemite Kingdom, including using infiltrations. Syria recently signaled that it and Iran might prefer a weak, but barely surviving Saddam, if only to undermine and humiliate Jordan in its efforts to remove Saddam.....

Since Iraq's future could affect the strategic balance in the Middle East profoundly, it would be understandable that Israel has an interest in supporting the Hashemites in their efforts to redefine Iraq, including such measures as: visiting Jordan as the first official state visit, even before a visit to the United States, of the new Netanyahu government; supporting King Hussein by providing him with some tangible security measures to protect his regime against Syrian subversion; encouraging ??? through influence in the U.S. business community ??? investment in Jordan to structurally shift Jordan???s economy away from dependence on Iraq; and diverting Syria???s attention by using Lebanese opposition elements to destabilize Syrian control of Lebanon.

The WMD argument was based on dodgy intelligence, polititical pressure on the CIA and a blatant disregard of intelligence that didn't support the administration's objectives.

The assertion that Saddam was linked to 9/11 has been disproved by our own 9/11 Commission and general links between Iraq and terrorism are weak. Any arguments about freeing the Iraqi people are bogus and an excuse after the original justification was found to be untrue. This is a war Israel, oil, and a sign to the world that America's military will take you out if you dissent.

 

[BoneCrusher]

Well OD I am glad you finally stepped up. You could have done so without all the childish insults, but that is your way of doing things ... whatever. I omited the insulting parts and responded to the actuall parts of substance.

We are in the Middle East because we failed to be there 30 years ago when all this Arab Terrorism and fundamentalism initially started to form.

Actually Arab terrorism started to form in the late 1800???s when various world leaders were looking at Palestine as a homeland for people of Jewish descent. Palestine was part of Ottoman Empire until 1917 when conquered by the British. Palestine was then administered by Britain under the League of Nations Mandate from 1920-1948. British forces were withdrawn in 1948. The UN partition plan into Jewish and Arab autonomous regions was prevented by declaration of a state of Israel in 1948 and the first Arab-Israeli war. Arab areas of Palestine were annexed by Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank). Gaza and West Bank were then captured and annexed by Israel in the 1967 war. As we then began to increase our military and financial aid to Israel we earned the hatred of the Arab nations. Our money and power have called a few of these countries to our side of the fence while doing nothing more than keeping others such as Iran and Syria at arms length. No-one argues that had we not developed relations with Isreal we would be in an even more vulnerable posistion, but to allow them to run rampant over the area has earned us the trouble we are now in.

We are there because they intend to undermine our society and kill us.

Saddam was an A-Hole by any gauge of the word. He was not the person who attacked us, nor the leader of those who attacked us. No one in his country posed a threat that justifies this level of death and sacrifice. There are many countries that hate us with equal or greater vigor but possess a much greater risk of being able to act out on that hatred. Their risk of potential damage to our country has increased lately too I might add.

We are there because they are using oil as an economic weapon.

Supply and demand dictate price while consumption dictates need. As we run out of oil those countries that still have a large reserve will surely see its value and price their resource at market value. BushCo has set the standard in this, and improves on that standard as we speak, but do so with oil they are stealing at the cost of our youth. Not acceptable. The old saying ???A lack of preparation on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part??? comes to mind. Our coming peak oil crisis does not justify the way our leadership led us to this point. The price of the lives of our youth is too high to pay for the solution. The profiteering from those at the top is not what those who are there went there to die to for; they were misled. I am a proactive thinker and do not have an issue with getting their oil out of that sand ??? but we should have found a way that did not cost the country our integrity and self respect. Stealing another country???s resources while killing their families is not acceptable. Being lied to about the entire thing and forced to volunteer up our young to kill these people as we steal their oil is not acceptable. My son will not be counted among the dead although he will have to pay off the price tag while companies like Halliburton reap the rewards.

We are there because we need a presence and a friendly country to balance out the lunatics and the fundamentalists who want to slaughter westerners.

Iraq was our ally until we changed partners and broke relations with Saddam. His human rights violations were nothing new while we were funding his war against Iran. We have Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia as allies in the mid-east. We are there for the oil ??? period.

We are there because of massive human rights violations.
We are there because they treat women and non-Muslims like animals.

I grouped these two together because these are duplicative. Sorry but their cultural choices are not a problem our country???s youth need to bleed and die for. Unlike some people???s sig???s might say we ARE NOT THE WORLD POLICE. We are members of a world community with a responsibility, but that responsibility does not include killing 15,000 (that figure will more than double by the end of spring) Iraqi people to install change. If we as a nation were given the chance to decide whether we wanted to install a change, then we could have found a way with less carnage. As the war on terror developed we should have continued to attack those that harbored the Al-Qaeda who brought us 9/11 instead of taking a right turn into Iraq.

We are there because we have no other choice and the world as we all know it is going to be changing dramatically soon.

Indeed the world is going to change in a very dramatic way very soon. With the peak oil crisis looming we need alternative fuel sources now not 10 years from now. Five years from now our oil prices will have tripled as the crisis begins a sharp spike upwards. Biofuel, Generators, Hydro, PV, Solar, and Wind Electricity are only a few of our options that we need to put our money into. $250,000,000,000 would have gotten us over any of the obstacles that prevent us from moving away from a petroleum based energy deployment system.

We are there because some people would rather self denigrate our country and help the enemy and put money in their own pockets with propaganda films and make it harder to win this war.

Whenever one leadership???s ???truth??? becomes so objectionable to such a large populace, then that ???truth??? must come under scrutiny. In this case we as a nation should have been given the truth from the outset of this war instead of the half-baked WMD???s /Al-Qaeda scam so that we as a nation could have been involved in the choices and made a collective decision. Since our leadership is certainly not going to tell us the truth someone else had too. All of the corporations in this country that are able to make a profit from this venture should have been involved instead of legislated out. In place of competitive bidding a small group of people has ruled out the major corporations from their fair share and restricted involvement to a select few increasing the costs passed on to our youth exponentially. Speaking out against a corrupt governmental policy of isolationism and profiteering is not ???self denigration??? nor is it helping the enemy. That is how we keep our leaders honest or nail them in the ass when caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.

Thanks for the response OD

 

[maniclion]

Thanks Red and BC, I can't figure out why we have to expound upon the obvious when their own heroes have provided the evidence. History will not treat this administration too kindly.

Project for a New American Century:
America must:
* Reposition permanently based forces to Southern Europe, Southeast Asia
and the Middle East;
* Modernize U.S. forces, including enhancing our fighter aircraft,
submarine and surface fleet capabilities;
* Develop and deploy a global missile defense system, and develop a
strategic dominance of space;
* Control the "International Commons" of cyberspace;
* Increase defense spending to a minimum of 3.8 percent of gross domestic
product, up from the 3 percent currently spent.

Above all else, PNAC desires and demands one
thing: The establishment of a global American empire to bend the will of
all nations. They chafe at the idea that the United States, the last
remaining superpower, does not do more by way of economic and military
force to bring the rest of the world under the umbrella of a new
socio-economic Pax Americana.

Vice President Dick Cheney is a founding member of PNAC, along with Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle.
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz is the ideological father of the
group.

Why don't you guy's just come out and say it?
"I don't see nothing wrong with the U.S. conquering the Globe, no matter how many soldiers must die."

 

[redspy]

Here's a good example of Keeping America Scared:- http://www.abum.com/?show_media=1668 (video footage from the Republican convention)

 

[kbm8795]

My. . .how times change - I stumbled on this gem:

" And now the liberals want to stop President Reagan from selling chemical warfare agents and military equipment to Saddam Hussein and why? Because Saddam 'allegedly' gassed a few Kurds in his own country. Mark my words, all this talk of Saddam Hussein being a 'war criminal' or 'committing crimes against humanity' is the same old thing. LIBERAL HATE SPEECH! and speaking of poison gas. I SAY WE ROUND UP ALL THE DRUG ADDICTS AND GAS THEM TOO"

Rush Limbaugh, November 3, 1988 - on the eve of the last Bush election for President.

 

[Du]

Here's a good example of Keeping America Scared:- http://www.abum.com/?show_media=1668 (video footage from the Republican convention)

Where do you find these things, Red? I have never met anyone with as many obscure websites as you.

A pretty funny video though, couldnt help but laugh. Is that Tom Green at the end?

 

[busyLivin]

Democratic National Convention Schedule

Boston, Massachusetts

6:00 PM - Opening Flag Burning Ceremony
6:05 PM - Pledge of Allegiance to the U.N.
6:15 PM - Secular Prayers by Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton
6:30 PM - Antiwar Concert by Barbara Streisand
6:40 PM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
7:00 PM - Tribute to France
7:10 PM - Collect Offerings for al-Zawahri Defense Fund
7:25 PM - Tribute to Germany
7:45 PM - Antiwar Rally (Moderated by Michael Moore)
8:25 PM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
8:30 PM - Terrorist Appeasement Workshop
9:00 PM - Roundtable Discussion of Taxes: "Calling for Higher Taxes on Others While You Pay None"
9:15 PM - Bill & Hillary Clinton Host a Seminar on "The Successful Selling of White House & Air Force One Mementos on eBay"
9:20 PM - Gay Marriage Ceremony (Both Male and Female Couples)
9:30 PM - * Intermission * Special Guest Soloist Jane Fonda
10:00 PM - Posting the Iraqi Colors by Sean Penn and Tim Robbins
10:10 PM - Reenactment of Kerry's Fake Medal Toss
10:20 PM - Howard Dean Screamfest 'Yeeearrrrrrrg!'
10:30 PM - Seminar: "The Boy Scouts and Other Paramilitary threats to National Security"
10:40 PM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
10:45 PM - Abortion Demonstration (NARAL)
11:00 PM - Multiple Gay Marriage Ceremony (Threesomes, Mixed and Same-Sex)
11:15 PM - 'Maximizing Welfare' Workshop
11:30 PM - 'Free Saddam' Pep Rally
11:50 PM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
12:00 AM - Kerry-Edwards 2004 Sealed With A Kiss
12:01 AM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
12:02 AM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

 

[busyLivin]

ok, i shouldn't do this, but it is pretty funny.
---------------------------------------------
Republican National Convention Schedule

New York, NY

6:00 PM Opening Prayer, led by the Rev. Jerry Falwell
6:30 PM Pledge of Allegiance
6:35 PM Burning of Bill of Rights (excluding 2nd amendment)
6:45 PM Salute to the Coalition of the Willing
6:46 PM Seminar #1: Getting your kid a military deferment
7:30 PM First Presidential Beer Bong
7:35 PM Serve Freedom Fries
7:40 PM EPA Address #1: Mercury, it's what's for dinner
8:00 PM Vote on which country to invade next
8:10 PM Call EMTs to revive Rush Limbaugh
8:15 PM John Ashcroft Lecture: The Homos are after your children
8:30 PM Roundtable discussion on reproductive rights (MEN only)
8:50 PM Seminar #2: Corporations: the government of the future
9:00 PM Condi Rice sings "I Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man"
9:05 PM Second Presidential Beer Bong
9:10 PM EPA Address #2 Trees: the real cause of forest fires
9:30 PM Break for secret meetings
10:00 PM Second prayer, led by Cal Thomas
10:15 PM Lecture by Karl Rove: Doublespeak made easy
10:30 PM Rumsfeld demonstration: How to squint and talk macho
10:35 PM Bush demonstration of trademark deer-in-headlights stare
10:40 PM John Ashcroft demonstrates new mandatory Kevlar chastity belt
10:45 PM Clarence Thomas reads list of black Republicans
10:46 PM Third Presidential Beer Bong
10:50 PM Seminar #3: Education: a drain on our nation's economy
11:10 PM Hilary Clinton Pinata
11:20 PM Second John Ashcroft Lecture: Evolutionists: the dangerous new cult
11:30 PM Call EMTs to revive Rush Limbaugh again
11:35 PM Blame Clinton
11:40 PM Laura serves milk and cookies
11:50 PM Closing Prayer, led by Jesus Himself
12:00 AM Nomination of George W. Bush as Holy Supreme Planetary Overlord

 

[redspy]

LOL. Nice one Busy.

 

[OceanDude]

Democratic National Convention Schedule

Boston, Massachusetts

6:00 PM - Opening Flag Burning Ceremony
6:05 PM - Pledge of Allegiance to the U.N.
6:15 PM - Secular Prayers by Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton
6:30 PM - Antiwar Concert by Barbara Streisand
6:40 PM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
7:00 PM - Tribute to France
7:10 PM - Collect Offerings for al-Zawahri Defense Fund
7:25 PM - Tribute to Germany
7:45 PM - Antiwar Rally (Moderated by Michael Moore)
8:25 PM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
8:30 PM - Terrorist Appeasement Workshop
9:00 PM - Roundtable Discussion of Taxes: "Calling for Higher Taxes on Others While You Pay None"
9:15 PM - Bill & Hillary Clinton Host a Seminar on "The Successful Selling of White House & Air Force One Mementos on eBay"
9:20 PM - Gay Marriage Ceremony (Both Male and Female Couples)
9:30 PM - * Intermission * Special Guest Soloist Jane Fonda
10:00 PM - Posting the Iraqi Colors by Sean Penn and Tim Robbins
10:10 PM - Reenactment of Kerry's Fake Medal Toss
10:20 PM - Howard Dean Screamfest 'Yeeearrrrrrrg!'
10:30 PM - Seminar: "The Boy Scouts and Other Paramilitary threats to National Security"
10:40 PM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
10:45 PM - Abortion Demonstration (NARAL)
11:00 PM - Multiple Gay Marriage Ceremony (Threesomes, Mixed and Same-Sex)
11:15 PM - 'Maximizing Welfare' Workshop
11:30 PM - 'Free Saddam' Pep Rally
11:50 PM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
12:00 AM - Kerry-Edwards 2004 Sealed With A Kiss
12:01 AM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast
12:02 AM - Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

Classic! Kennedy's toasts are right on the mark too.
OD

 

[redspy]

Where do you find these things, Red? I have never met anyone with as many obscure websites as you.

A pretty funny video though, couldnt help but laugh. Is that Tom Green at the end?

I pick most of them up from various blog sites I frequent. I also share links with likeminded friends.

 

[OceanDude]

Here's a good example of Keeping America Scared:- http://www.abum.com/?show_media=1668 (video footage from the Republican convention)

Oh my, the Democrats have finally figured out a way to get people feeling good about themselves again and laughing and feeling good about 9/11 as a misunderstood but deserved punishment for supporting the Zionists. Next thing we know someone in the Democratic party we will make a motion for a national holiday memorializing the "big mistake" of Iraq as a national day of moarning and insist on renaming all the streets that run through Arabic neighborhoods "Saddam".

OD
p.s. If the stakes were not so high it would be humorous.

 

[OceanDude]

.

Manics view isn't conspiracy theory
OK You have some points here ??? ???but so what???. Comments embedded.[OD]

President Bush formed the energy task force in early 2001 to develop a national energy policy, with Vice President Cheney at the helm. Even though the government heavily censored the documents before supplying them to the public they reveal that Bush administration officials sought extensive advice from utility companies and the oil, gas, coal and nuclear energy industries, and incorporated their recommendations, often word for word, into the energy plan. Essentially industry created our energy policy with their own profit motives in mind. America's demand for oil necessitates domination of at least one country in the region.

This is nothing new. Everyone knows that Government lacks the expertise in almost every meaningful thing in our country. This is why we want smaller government ??? to expose ourselves to less incompetence and rely on experts in the commercial market place. Gov. can???t even administer the post office properly why should we expect them to be good at developing comprehensive energy plans for the world? This is the nature of government so it must seek experts to advise. All administrations do this. Governments are made up of bureaucrats (all administrations are composed of teams of both democrats, republicans and various special interest mavericks). Who do you think advised Clinton on his health care programs (besides his wife) ??? yep, special interest industry representatives who stacked the deck on a way that they would make some money. I don???t have a problem with paying money for competent services as long as a plan is rational and works.[OD]

Israel and America are almost indistinguishable these days. America goes to great lengths to protect Israel politically and militarily. As an example there have been 40 Security Council resolutions and hundreds of General Assembly resolutions demanding that Israel withdraw from the Palestinian territories as a step toward a Middle East peace but America consistently vetoes anything critical of Israel.

Israel receives $3Bn of aid from the US every year. ???The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion??? is a summary of economic research done by Thomas R. Stauffer. Stauffer???s summary of the research was published in the June 2003 issue of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

A number of the intellectual architects of the Iraq war are not surprising Jewish Neocons. Protecting Israel is of prime importance to this administration. You can trace back Israel's need to remove Saddam back to 1996 with the The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies report entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm. Here are a couple of snippets:-

I have never felt comfortable with the influence Israel has in this country???s internal affairs either. Throughout al of history it seems to be the pattern with this people to somehow manage to effectively lobby all the great world powers to do things that are disastrous for the host country but good for the Jews. Except it usually end up backfiring on them at some point in history with broken peace deals, attempts at genocide etc. It seems to be their lot in history to be in the fray of conflict and they have become masters at surviving. We support them because we have (had) a common moral philosophy and they have mostly been reasonable and friendly (but I am still pissed at them sinking our naval vessel and killing our sailors for monitoring the Egyptian war). But they are not unique in this regard. I have also never felt uncomfortable with us spending so much of our taxpayer dollars to buy the temporary peace in blatantly corrupt governments all over the world. We can no longer afford to buy the peace anywhere and I am afraid we are now systemically forced to dominate in the same way as the Romans were. A growing economy and continuing prosperity requires an incursion into someone???s turf at some point and that means conflict. I didn???t invent this system and I have no idea how to change it. [OD]

The WMD argument was based on dodgy intelligence, political pressure on the CIA and a blatant disregard of intelligence that didn't support the administration's objectives.

The assertion that Saddam was linked to 9/11 has been disproved by our own 9/11 Commission and general links between Iraq and terrorism are weak. Any arguments about freeing the Iraqi people are bogus and an excuse after the original justification was found to be untrue. This is a war Israel, oil, and a sign to the world that America's military will take you out if you dissent.

Again so what? No one is so naïve to think Saddam was our friend. He was a criminally minded individual (who???s mouth was a weapon of mass destruction) who would not have hesitated to pass oil money (from his billions cheated from the corrupt UN oil for food deal) to terrorists and malcontents who would do his bidding anywhere. The history of this country has many cases of the government inventing a moral cause for going to war as a veneer to the real underlying cause to win approval from a moralistic oriented people (which by the way is becoming less so ??? and very dangerous for the whole world). The civil war in this country on the surface was about the moral indignation of slavery. In reality it was all backed by big northern banks and industries that could not compete with the rising southern economic power fueled by cheap labor. Lincoln attempted to win an election numerous failed times on a moral platform. He only became elected when the northern banks and big money backed him. The rest is history.

All in all its high time America takes some responsibility and starts looking after its own national interest and foreign policy. If it???s any condolence the Arabs and yourself should like the idea of having an alternative to Israel in the middle east as our only current ???friend???. A democratic Iraq would strategically give us a world of options. We could have permanent air bases and control the entire air space in the Persian Gulf, the Red Sea and the Mediterranean and we would be in a posture to immediately stop any lunacy that might develop from Iran, Syria or Saudi Arabia. This is why the radical suicide bombers are hell bent on blowing themselves to holy hamburger since they know life as they know it is very close to being over anyway and the western culture is emerging as the dominant culture and they can not accept this inevitability.[OD]

 

[OceanDude]

Comments embedded.

Well OD I am glad you finally stepped up. Actually Arab terrorism started to form in the late 1800???s when various world leaders were looking at Palestine as a homeland for people of Jewish descent. Palestine was part of Ottoman Empire until 1917 when conquered by the British. Palestine was then administered by Britain under the League of Nations Mandate from 1920-1948. British forces were withdrawn in 1948. The UN partition plan into Jewish and Arab autonomous regions was prevented by declaration of a state of Israel in 1948 and the first Arab-Israeli war. Arab areas of Palestine were annexed by Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank). Gaza and West Bank were then captured and annexed by Israel in the 1967 war. As we then began to increase our military and financial aid to Israel we earned the hatred of the Arab nations. Our money and power have called a few of these countries to our side of the fence while doing nothing more than keeping others such as Iran and Syria at arms length. No-one argues that had we not developed relations with Israel we would be in an even more vulnerable position, but to allow them to run rampant over the area has earned us the trouble we are now in.
I did not feel it important to go all the way back in history to precisely identify when all this crap started. Go back a wee bit further and one could draw the logical conclusion that putting the Jews in modern Israel was what in fact what united a bunch of goat herders and nomadic tribes through a unwritten constitution of contempt and hatred for the Jews. This is not a very stable philosophy for greatness and in fact it???s a recipe for world disaster. The Arabs need to grow up and move beyond their petty human emotions and character flaws and evolve like most of the rest of the world has. The USA had little to do with any of this.

I find some of your philosophy about cause and effect distressing. You are using the same psychology as the Arabs ??? ???we earned??? this response for supporting the Zionist? That sounds like it came right off the lips of UBL. There is no way to justify the inhumanity and utter contempt that these animals have for the rest of the world. I don???t know how you feel about it but when someone tries to presume that they can punish a country as powerful as the USA for behavior that they don???t like they should not be surprised at the utter wrath that will come down on them. In that sense, as far as I am concerned they have ???earned??? our complete contempt and will justly suffer complete obliteration for the presumption of superiority and arrogance. The Arabs have always had a lofty opinion of themselves and their hubris and hatred is why they will never be able to ever emerge as a world power that can survive its own character flaws long. They are inherently suicidal. For lack of a common enemy they would go back to killing each other and Clerics will put out contracts on other Clerics. [OD]


Saddam was an A-Hole by any gauge of the word. He was not the person who attacked us, nor the leader of those who attacked us. No one in his country posed a threat that justifies this level of death and sacrifice. There are many countries that hate us with equal or greater vigor but possess a much greater risk of being able to act out on that hatred. Their risk of potential damage to our country has increased lately too I might add.



Supply and demand dictate price while consumption dictates need. As we run out of oil those countries that still have a large reserve will surely see its value and price their resource at market value. BushCo has set the standard in this, and improves on that standard as we speak, but do so with oil they are stealing at the cost of our youth. Not acceptable. The old saying ???A lack of preparation on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part??? comes to mind. Our coming peak oil crisis does not justify the way our leadership led us to this point. The price of the lives of our youth is too high to pay for the solution. The profiteering from those at the top is not what those who are there went there to die to for; they were misled. I am a proactive thinker and do not have an issue with getting their oil out of that sand ??? but we should have found a way that did not cost the country our integrity and self respect. Stealing another country???s resources while killing their families is not acceptable. Being lied to about the entire thing and forced to volunteer up our young to kill these people as we steal their oil is not acceptable. My son will not be counted among the dead although he will have to pay off the price tag while companies like Halliburton reap the rewards.

From the very start of Bush???s presidency he has been in a reactive posture due to 9/11 and not in a position to be proactive on domestic energy policy. This is more an issue of focus and priorities. Why did not Clinton have us an energy policy in the 8 years he was in office that the new administration could have taken as a starting point? It is lunacy to assert that we are stealing their resources when we are pouring billions into Iraq and suffering our own loss of innocent blood. We have not made one nickel off of Iraq and are making the sacrifice now so that our youth have a chance at a future world peace. There is no tomorrow for your son to enjoy if we do not stop the lunacy in that region. There is no future for any of us. We are in condition of great peril and survival ??? the rules are different when at war. I think this is the crux of your inner conflict ??? you do not believe how dire it really is. I think it is much worse than most people can fathom and this is a clash of cultures, values and ideals that has been brewing for centuries.[OD]

Iraq was our ally until we changed partners and broke relations with Saddam. His human rights violations were nothing new while we were funding his war against Iran. We have Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia as allies in the mid-east. We are there for the oil ??? period.
Algeria, Jordan, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia are irrelevant and are havens for terrorists. Ever waked the filthy Muslim slums of Morocco? I have been there and seen it first hand recently. I ate lavishly in the King???s luxurious port and dined on fine wines and dinners. I met fine people who were friendly. But under it all there is a jealousy for the west and contempt that ???infidels??? can enjoy comforts and world power while God???s people suffer. At almost every turn in the slums there is a Mosque. I see beautiful young boys and girls who are happy dutifully going to prayer or school. But the Mullahs fuel the frenzy with a sermon of hate and contempt. Egypt is relevant but alone insufficient. Israel is there but is completely isolated diplomatically. For diplomacy to work we need more options and more friends. Personally I think it is now beyond diplomacy and it will take the direct invasion into places like Iran to stop it all. History has show repeatedly that the only thing the Arabs respect (other than someone that blows themselves up to kill Jews) is the application and humility of swift power. It???s not our way but its probably our only option.[OD]



I grouped these two together because these are duplicative. Sorry but their cultural choices are not a problem our country???s youth need to bleed and die for. Unlike some people???s sig???s might say we ARE NOT THE WORLD POLICE. We are members of a world community with a responsibility, but that responsibility does not include killing 15,000 (that figure will more than double by the end of spring) Iraqi people to install change. If we as a nation were given the chance to decide whether we wanted to install a change, then we could have found a way with less carnage. As the war on terror developed we should have continued to attack those that harbored the Al-Qaeda who brought us 9/11 instead of taking a right turn into Iraq.
There is no world community. There is a tenuous balance of competing interests knit together through common economic benefit and motivation. Absent that it all unravels and we have living hell. We are on the precipice of that now. We can???t second guess tactics and strategy ??? there are much wiser in this who have committed their entire lives to it. Al-Qaeda were the most foolish ever in history since their lunacy they brought upon the Arabs their worst single fear ??? Western Domination. What were they thinking? The great showdown is in motion and the innocents that the cowards hide behind have only to blame their own thugs and criminals for bringing death to them. They have no honor and fight behind women and children. Innocents will be killed but through no desire of ours. It???s tragic and part of their strategy to foment even more contempt for the West for loss of human life. To retreat is to lose and to play directly into their strategy. [OD]


Indeed the world is going to change in a very dramatic way very soon. With the peak oil crisis looming we need alternative fuel sources now not 10 years from now. Five years from now our oil prices will have tripled as the crisis begins a sharp spike upwards. Biofuel, Generators, Hydro, PV, Solar, and Wind Electricity are only a few of our options that we need to put our money into. $250,000,000,000 would have gotten us over any of the obstacles that prevent us from moving away from a petroleum based energy deployment system.
The best think that can happen for the USA is for gas prices to slowly creep upward to about $2.50 per gallon. At that price our abundant coal reserves and shale oil become economically viable alternative fuels and the Arabs lose a big part of their economic base to fund their own international expansion. They have been playing with the prices for years and have tried to skim maximum profits while keeping it below a triggering threshold so we do not radically change our foreign oil policy and wean ourselves off their oil. I am all for cutting that oil dependency. Solar and Wind are miniscule alternatives ??? our only current alternatives are coal, shale, nuclear and hopefully in our life time ??? fusion power.[OD]



Whenever one leadership???s ???truth??? becomes so objectionable to such a large populace, then that ???truth??? must come under scrutiny. In this case we as a nation should have been given the truth from the outset of this war instead of the half-baked WMD???s /Al-Qaeda scam so that we as a nation could have been involved in the choices and made a collective decision. Since our leadership is certainly not going to tell us the truth someone else had too. All of the corporations in this country that are able to make a profit from this venture should have been involved instead of legislated out. In place of competitive bidding a small group of people has ruled out the major corporations from their fair share and restricted involvement to a select few increasing the costs passed on to our youth exponentially. Speaking out against a corrupt governmental policy of isolationism and profiteering is not ???self denigration??? nor is it helping the enemy. That is how we keep our leaders honest or nail them in the ass when caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.
I really don't think when we got into the 911 response we had any cluse how big this thing was. I am less concerned about who makes a profit as I am about how are we all going to survive this. Hell, I can plauy into the profit game if I want by buying their company stock - as we all can. Do the same, take the profits and donate them to your favorite charity or political organization. I fundamentally disagree about Michael Moors speaking out. He is a self serving ego maniac who is only interested in making him self appear relevant to his peers in the entertainment industry. He is a con man.[OD]

Thanks for the response OD