Fahrenheit 911...

[Allen]

Agreed Austinite...

Just a Question: If someone had said in February 2003, that by June 2004, Saddam Hussein would have been removed from power and captured; that a diverse new government, including Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, would be installed; that elections would be scheduled for January 2005; and that the liberation of a devastated country of 25 million in which everyone owns an AK-47 had been accomplished with an army of around 140,000 with a total casualty rate (including accidents and friendly fire) of around 800; that no oil fields had been set aflame; no WMDs had been used; no mass refugee crises had emerged; and no civil war had broken out... well, I think you would come to the conclusion that the war had been an extraordinary success. And you'd be right. Yes, there are enormous challenges; and yes, so much more could have been achieved without incompetence, infighting and occasional inhumanity. But it's worth acknowledging that, with a little perspective, our current gloom is over-blown. Stocks in Iraq have been way over-sold. I even regret some minor sells myself. Now watch the media do all it can to accentuate the negative.
- Andrew Sullivan

A little more on-topic:
""To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery." "
- http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

read the whole thing

 

[Rich46yo]

Where was MM moviemaking skills when Bill & Bull Klinton were pulling their hijinks? Where was his film making greatness when Bill & Bull allow Al Queda to operate freely, train their army, and lay the groundwork for 9/11? Where was MM when Bill,Bull, and Li'l Bull at Justice, allowed their FBI to shoot kids out of their mommies hands during an illegal siege, and cook little kids in a Texas standoff useing wartime rules of engagement against American citizens? The again where was MM when Bill,Bull, and Li'l Bulls FBI allowed terrorists to train to fly "not take off or land" at American flight schools while painting yellow arrows at the WTC towers?

What was MM doing when Bill and Bull conferred with other lawyers about the legality of striking back at Al Qaeda after the bombing of the USS Cole. "You know what their Li' Bull-ll "Maddie Albright"said at the time"? She said, "while trying to settle the Israeli/Palistinian conflict it would be unhelpful to bomb muslims at this time"? Bill & Bulls cabinet voted 7 to 1 against striking at Al Qaeda after the Cole attack. I guess MM missed that meeting.

I dont know what MM was during thru all those years but I knew what Bill & Bull were doing. They were destryong the US military, wrecking American LawEnforcement, pandering to that whorehouse United Nations, flimflaming 20 yos to blow him under the COCs desk, dodgeing indictments and impeachments, and failing in their "Bill & Bulls" sworn oath to protect the United States.

To bad that fat swine MM didnt make a movie about it. It would have been entertaining even if he'd stayed factually balanced about it. That is if he knows how. Hes the darling of the great liberal crusade now. They/He have all the answers. I wonder if it ever occured to them that its "they" who are the problem........take care............Rich

 

[rule62]

What I have never understood about the current crop of dems is their answer to the fact that war has been declared on our country. Please help me, all I hear is criticism with no alternatives presented. The barbarians are in the gate, we have a choice here - war or an extended war. What would Moore and his ilk do differently? And please don't say they would bring in the French and form a coalition. The fact of the matter is, the EU (with the exception of Britain) can not contribute to any extended combat operations. They simply do not have the assets.

I believe we as a nation still don't understand what we are really up against. It is sad, but I think true - we will get hit again and we may get serious after the next "9/11". I sort of doubt it though, we have so deluded ourselves that it may take two more major hits. I really hope not, but it may. At that point, when people actually understand and feel a threat, we may begin to understand. Has anyone noticed there has not been a strike on our soil since we took the fight to them?

 

[Hanz29]

Here's a link not many of you may have heard about.....of course the media did not really cover it....it would make Dubya look good

http://nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200406250926.asp

 

[Dale Mabry]

Agreed Austinite...

Just a Question: If someone had said in February 2003, that by June 2004, Saddam Hussein would have been removed from power and captured; that a diverse new government, including Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, would be installed; that elections would be scheduled for January 2005; and that the liberation of a devastated country of 25 million in which everyone owns an AK-47 had been accomplished with an army of around 140,000 with a total casualty rate (including accidents and friendly fire) of around 800; that no oil fields had been set aflame; no WMDs had been used; no mass refugee crises had emerged; and no civil war had broken out... well, I think you would come to the conclusion that the war had been an extraordinary success. And you'd be right. Yes, there are enormous challenges; and yes, so much more could have been achieved without incompetence, infighting and occasional inhumanity. But it's worth acknowledging that, with a little perspective, our current gloom is over-blown. Stocks in Iraq have been way over-sold. I even regret some minor sells myself. Now watch the media do all it can to accentuate the negative.
- Andrew Sullivan

I would say that all of these accomplishments would be considered great if two requiremkents were met

1)GW was president of Iraq.

2)WMDs were found.

Neither were met, so I don't consider it a success.

One more thing, can we please just give up on the Bill Clinton stuff? They both fucked up, BOTH, not just Bill, not just GW. Bill Clinton is not running this time around, so let's just leave him out. Should there have been a movie about him? Prolly. Would a severely left-sided director make it? No, I would expect the GOP to take care of that. If they did, I would have watched it.

 

[MaxMirkin]

Bill Clinton is not running this time around, so let's just leave him out. Should there have been a movie about him? Prolly.

Didn't you ever see Primary Colors?

 

[Larva]

If you have a fast internet connectinon I can send it to you Larva, but it may take some time

thaks but i know where to get it

 

[JOhn100]

Dont Hack on all Californians! Not all of us are Left wing liberal a@@ Holes!!

 

[camarosuper6]

Yea. Im a California Right-wing @$$hole!

 

[Rich46yo]

"""""""""""I would say that all of these accomplishments would be considered great if two requiremkents were met

1)GW was president of Iraq.

2)WMDs were found.

Neither were met, so I don't consider it a success.

One more thing, can we please just give up on the Bill Clinton stuff? They both fucked up, BOTH, not just Bill, not just GW. Bill Clinton is not running this time around, so let's just leave him out. Should there have been a movie about him? Prolly. Would a severely left-sided director make it? No, I would expect the GOP to take care of that. If they did, I would have watched it.""""""""

This is another UN, world liberal collective, sponsored half lie spread to convince the mush heads of the world that we had no reason or right to invade Iraq. What they forget to include is the fact that Saddams Iraq commited thousands of violations of cease fire agreements and UN resolutions, each one of which gave us legal authorization to attack him. He obstructed,lied to, harrassed, and eventually kicked out the UN inspectors who found, and destroyed much of, the most sophisticated WMD weaponry and infrustructure in the Arab world. To this day the Iraqi's cant account for tons of chem/Bio's, and their precursors, they themselves admitted they had.

Then theres the sordid little tale of how Saddams secret police attempted to assasinate a former American President when he was visiting Kuwait. Gee after all this should we have gotten a lawyer and sued him? Or how about passing another UN resolution with the stipulation in it that "this time we really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really mean it!"

And NO! Im not giving up on Bill & Bull Klinton. During his/her tenure, during which they accomplished basically nothing, I warned people about his convoluted/leftist world views and his simpleton trust in the United Nations. The UN is nothing but a bloated insect, fat from the money of Yank taxpayers, and intent on becomeing the ONE world Govt. from which to spread their leftist/commie dogma and force their will on the American people. Everything from Politics, to gun control,abortion, the death penalty...ect , right on down the line. And they have carefully fiananced and supprted their media/political stooges to help them foster a benign image of the UN as an organization. Even many Americans, the mush-heads among us, look at the UN like it was something out of Star Trek. Like the "United Federation of Planets". The truth of the matter is this greedy,backstabbing,whorehouse of an organization has backstabbed us at every opportunity. Indeed it has never accomplished anything without the money of the Yank taxpayers, and the blood of Americas sons, backing it up.

And the final victory the UN will have is the day the keys to the American military are handed over to its Head Pimp, Koffi Annan . And Bill & Bull Klinton were the ones who first did it. They did it in Somalia and they are the ones who have the blood of those boys on their hands. Somalia was just one of their many retreats from terrorists, backstabs of our soldiers, and pandering to the UN.

Thats all we need right now is another bullshit artist, professional leftist politician like John Kerry. Whom is truly in the image of Bill & Bull and no doubt will allow B&B to have great input in his administration. Thats all we need is another fucking liberal lawyer.............take care.................Rich

 

[Dale Mabry]

JOhn Kerry is nothing like Clinton, he is far less charismatic and efinitely not as pimp.

As for everything else, what exactly was a half-lie? You never really got to your point after that 5 paragraphs of rhetorec. I know it wasn't that it was both their fault because it was. I was for the war, but I was realistic as to what that war was about. Syria is a bigger terrorist haven than Iraq as are Saudi Arabia and Iran. N. Korea basically said that they were gonna start building nuclear weapons unless we gave them aid. I would have first attacked the biggest threat, then dished some out to N Korea. We obviously were not going to get Saudia Arabia, but I fail to see why Iraq is a bigger terrorsit threat than Syria or Iran. I know why we went after them first, but it had nothing to do with them being our biggest threat.

 

[BigBallaGA]

this is for all of you mother fuckers who support the executive terrorist!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=4&u=/nm/20040629/ts_nm/iraq_britain_berg_dc

 

[tomas101]

1)i cant blelieve all this shit that is being said..wow...lots of ignorance is flowing through this thread..IRAQ in no way is a threat or was a threat or prolly would ever be a threat..even bush and cheny said this right when they came in office if u remeber correctly?

2)
I'm so fucking sick and tired of people bashing Moore because he's biased. Wow? REALLY? YA DON'T FUCKING SAY! That's like saying Anne Coulter and Michelle Malkin are biased. We know. I see nothing in the partisan handbook that says all liberals have to be fair and balanced. If you don't like what you see, IGNORE IT. Americans are pretty good at ignoring the truth anyway.

Yes, Moore exaggerates for dramatic impact. It still doesn't negate the fact that kids are dying in a bullshit war, people are getting heads chopped right off while being filmed, and it doesn't make Bush any LESS of a liar.

What we seem to forget about propaganda is that there's always a kernel of truth in it.

 

[Dale Mabry]

What we seem to forget about propaganda is that there's always a kernel of truth in it.

There's also kernels of corn in me crap.

 

[copen73]

I am so tired of you guys who refuse to serve in your military, but are so quick to bash it. First off, we how serve voluntered to be here. We know the chance and the cost that our job requires. We do this not for ourselves. We do it for our spouses, children, family, friends, neighbors, and yes you. You call this an illeagal war, and bring up the tons of Iraqi's who have died. Yes, unfortunatly we have caused a few civilian casulites (such is the nature of war). However, we have in no way cause as many casulites as the Iraqi "terrorist" have. You say this is an illegal war, that we have no right to be there. Well do you remember Sept 11. Do you remember the smoking New York skyline. Or the side of the Pentegon missing. How about the burnt field in Penn. You say Iraq had nothing to do with this....bullshit. I remember seeing pictures of people celebrating when the WTC was hit. Sadam even had a drawing of the smoking towers on a wall in his palace. We need to let the whole world know that we will never sit back in fear from a terrorist. It is a great tragady that international civilians a being taken hostage and murdered. But they knew the dangers when they went there. End of story.

Lets not sit back an blam the President for some thing he could not even control. Even if he did have some info, there was nothing he could do about it. And we are the one's to blame for that. It had already been addressed that our airports did not have enough security. We were lagging way behind Europe....but the American people did not want the inconvince caused by proper secuity. Keep us safe as long as you don't incovince me. No, don't you dare put cops with automatic weapons in the Airport.

Sorry for going off. I just get so upset by people like Moore, and others who feel that blame has to be place on those in charge. I do not like Moore, I think he is a liar who twist the truth. But he is the reason I do what I do. I know it is because of me and my fellow servicemen and women that he is allowed to sell his lies. So Michael Moore you are welcome....from the United States Military.

 

[kbm8795]

I'm just sorry that Moore's cameras apparently didn't catch the coronation of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon as "king of America" in the U.S. Senate Office Building last March. With a few Republican lawmakers looking on, the self-proclaimed "messiah" managed to wangle a room through Sen. Trent Lott's office to hold an official coronation.

Moon, who owns the Washington Times newspaper, a favorite quoting dock for neo-religious conservatives, apparently had no trouble getting access to the Senate building to hold his official coronation as monarch of America. According to Moonie officials, the event symbolized that America had "surrendered to the True Parents in the king's position" meaning, Moon and his wife.

Such religious right 'truth' peddlers like Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed and Beverly LaHaye have spoken to Moonie gatherings. . .along with ex-Prez Bush I, Jeane Kirkpatrick, and William Bennett.

Since Moon's theology claims that Jesus failed in his mission on earth and that Rev. Moon is the new Messiah, this would have been a humerous addition to a documentary.

 

[Dale Mabry]

No one really brought up the casualties, but aren't most of the terrorists not from Iraq.

I don't know who thinks this war is illegal, I certainly don't, I just think it is way out of order. Iraq should have been at best 3rd on the list.

As I said before, i don't blame GW for the towers, it was many people's fault. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it was people under him that failed, you cannot expect the president to look at every single piece of intelligence, that is retarded. Someone lower on the chain of command failed, IMO. As for Bush, I would say that he intially handled it well, but I think his priorities are fukked for the above mentioned reason.

 

[copen73]

I did not mean to direct the my above rant towards anyone currently using this board. I read the link the BigBalla attached and just kind of let all my thoughts and feeling out. I guess my fingers typed faster than my thougts.

Yes many of terrorist are Iraqi's from the old regime. However, there have been a number of insurgents from Iran and other Arab countries. I will not say that GW has done wrong with the Iraqi situation. But, I do believe we should get our people out as soon as posible. Unfortantly I do not feel we can just abandon Iraq either. There would be civil war if we were to pull out right now. We owe it to the Iraqi people to provide them as much protection as possibe.

kbm8795, where did you get the Sun Myung Moon story?

 

[ALBOB]

I do believe we should get our people out as soon as posible. Unfortantly I do not feel we can just abandon Iraq either. There would be civil war if we were to pull out right now. We owe it to the Iraqi people to provide them as much protection as possibe.

We also owe it to ourselves. If we pull out before the country is settled down and running smoothly under it's own government, it'll just fall back into it's old way with a tyranical dictator who supports terrorism. Mostly the type that likes to fly jumbo jets into U.S. buildings.

 

[Hanz29]

2)
I'm so fucking sick and tired of people bashing Moore because he's biased. Wow? REALLY? YA DON'T FUCKING SAY! That's like saying Anne Coulter and Michelle Malkin are biased. We know. I see nothing in the partisan handbook that says all liberals have to be fair and balanced. If you don't like what you see, IGNORE IT. Americans are pretty good at ignoring the truth anyway.

mmm.....okay, Michelle Malkin is hot, Micheal Moore isn't.....is that good enough explanation.....

 

[ALBOB]

I see nothing in the partisan handbook that says all liberals have to be fair and balanced.

This is where you blow your own arguement, and the Micheal Moore's of the world, right out of the water. You're right, there's nothing that says you HAVE to be "fair and balanced". What gets you in trouble is when you pass your slanted half-truths off as being facts. Even Mr. Moore has had to back off his earlier statements about his own movie. Originally he touted it as a fact based documentary. Then he began stating that it was only his opinion put on film. Now he's back pedaled to the point he's saying it's just satire. Yes, facts are facts. The problem is, Michael Moore wouldn't know a fact if it hit him in the face.

 

[Sean0621]

this is for all of you mother fuckers who support the executive terrorist!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=4&u=/nm/20040629/ts_nm/iraq_britain_berg_dc

What are you talking about man? I hate that this is a big deal as well. It almost makes it sound like Nick Berg's life is worth more than mine, because he went there as a contractor and I'm going as a Marine. It's like some of these people think we signed up to die and our lives aren't worth as much. Maybe I'm a little touchy on some of these issues ( I know I am). But it seems like when they talk about deaths in Iraq, they say 800 have died in Iraq along with Nick Berg. See my problem is that he has a name, and I am a number. I don't feel his life is worth anymore than any of the guys I know who didn't make it home alive. But my point is why don't we get to hear from the father's who have lost Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen in Iraq, why does Nick Berg's father's opinion matter more than Lcpl Garcia's father's opinion. Obviously I am biased and very protective of my fellow Marines, and brothers in other branches of the service. But sometimes that's the way things look to me when I see crap like this get blown out of proportion. Hopefully if something happens to me while I'm over there, my father will say, well my son fought and died doing something he believed in and I'm proud of him. I know that's what my dad would say too. His father obviously feels upset and betrayed, he lost a son in and had to watch it on TV, I really feel for him. But that does not make what he says right, but I'd just let him vent, let him have his camera time to vent his anger, I just wish they gave it to all the father's who have lost their son's in this war.

 

[austinite]

Agreed Austinite...

Just a Question: If someone had said in February 2003, that by June 2004, Saddam Hussein would have been removed from power and captured; that a diverse new government, including Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, would be installed; that elections would be scheduled for January 2005; and that the liberation of a devastated country of 25 million in which everyone owns an AK-47 had been accomplished with an army of around 140,000 with a total casualty rate (including accidents and friendly fire) of around 800; that no oil fields had been set aflame; no WMDs had been used; no mass refugee crises had emerged; and no civil war had broken out... well, I think you would come to the conclusion that the war had been an extraordinary success.

Most excellent post from a fellow Texan. Glad to have you here. Let me add to your thought, remember, we had just finished eliminating the Taliban from Afghanistan. A lot has been accomplished in implementing the Bush doctrine and fighting the war on global terrorism in a short time.

Once we get past this election, I wonder what our next move will be? We need to grow our military by about 50% and undergo some serious R&R and training first though.

 

[Dale Mabry]

This is where you blow your own arguement, and the Micheal Moore's of the world, right out of the water. You're right, there's nothing that says you HAVE to be "fair and balanced". What gets you in trouble is when you pass your slanted half-truths off as being facts. Even Mr. Moore has had to back off his earlier statements about his own movie. Originally he touted it as a fact based documentary. Then he began stating that it was only his opinion put on film. Now he's back pedaled to the point he's saying it's just satire. Yes, facts are facts. The problem is, Michael Moore wouldn't know a fact if it hit him in the face.

I agree with this 100%. This is what I completely dislike about the extremes of either wing. The extremists always act like theirs is the only way when the fact of the matter is that the middle is generally the more truthful path.

As for this war on terror. It is ridiculous that more countries have not supported us. The reason for this is Iraq. Now all these bitch countries are going to resist any country that we go after. To be truthful, I don't think Bush is going after any country once Iraq is done. This is a dumbass move IMO.

 

[austinite]

To be truthful, I don't think Bush is going after any country once Iraq is done. This is a dumbass move IMO.

Only if there is overwhelming evidence of supporting overt terrorism directed against the United States. Maybe in 2006. Maybe Syria.

A much better scenario would be if Saudi Arabia starts going after cells within it's own borders and we provide assistance at their request.

 

[tomas101]

I am so tired of you guys who refuse to serve in your military, but are so quick to bash it. First off, we how serve voluntered to be here. We know the chance and the cost that our job requires. We do this not for ourselves. We do it for our spouses, children, family, friends, neighbors, and yes you. You call this an illeagal war, and bring up the tons of Iraqi's who have died. Yes, unfortunatly we have caused a few civilian casulites (such is the nature of war). However, we have in no way cause as many casulites as the Iraqi "terrorist" have. You say this is an illegal war, that we have no right to be there. Well do you remember Sept 11. Do you remember the smoking New York skyline. Or the side of the Pentegon missing. How about the burnt field in Penn. You say Iraq had nothing to do with this....bullshit. I remember seeing pictures of people celebrating when the WTC was hit. Sadam even had a drawing of the smoking towers on a wall in his palace. We need to let the whole world know that we will never sit back in fear from a terrorist. It is a great tragady that international civilians a being taken hostage and murdered. But they knew the dangers when they went there. End of story.

Lets not sit back an blam the President for some thing he could not even control. Even if he did have some info, there was nothing he could do about it. And we are the one's to blame for that. It had already been addressed that our airports did not have enough security. We were lagging way behind Europe....but the American people did not want the inconvince caused by proper secuity. Keep us safe as long as you don't incovince me. No, don't you dare put cops with automatic weapons in the Airport.

Sorry for going off. I just get so upset by people like Moore, and others who feel that blame has to be place on those in charge. I do not like Moore, I think he is a liar who twist the truth. But he is the reason I do what I do. I know it is because of me and my fellow servicemen and women that he is allowed to sell his lies. So Michael Moore you are welcome....from the United States Military.

wow...you are one of the most niave and ignorant pple i have ever witnessed..seriously...first get your fatcs right b/c u are wrong...wow pple celebrated the attacks in iraq...so they must be connected ...u do know about the other half of the world that was celebrating also right?and your mad at moore?? ahahaha...so your mad at a man's personal views? ahahahaha...your whole statement was incorrect and had no truth to it what so ever...please read up on the facts first please b/c i'm not trying to be mean, but this was a terrible statement and full of blasphemy!

 

[tomas101]

This is where you blow your own arguement, and the Micheal Moore's of the world, right out of the water. You're right, there's nothing that says you HAVE to be "fair and balanced". What gets you in trouble is when you pass your slanted half-truths off as being facts. Even Mr. Moore has had to back off his earlier statements about his own movie. Originally he touted it as a fact based documentary. Then he began stating that it was only his opinion put on film. Now he's back pedaled to the point he's saying it's just satire. Yes, facts are facts. The problem is, Michael Moore wouldn't know a fact if it hit him in the face.

i hear ya, but everything that moore pointed out in the movie is true, it all has happened..so that would make it factual right? of course it is slanted but that is the whole point of the movie...to show the other side to what has been seen as only good on t.v....but you are correct also

 

[Sean0621]

wow...you are one of the most niave and ignorant pple i have ever witnessed.

Right back at ya man, you don't sound very intelligent or well studied yourself. Course it's just my opinion, but you wouldn't get mad at one man's personal views anyways, that would make you an idiot of course.

 

[ALBOB]

i hear ya, but everything that moore pointed out in the movie is true, it all has happened..so that would make it factual right? of course it is slanted but that is the whole point of the movie...to show the other side to what has been seen as only good on t.v....but you are correct also

You keep using the words "fact" and "slanted" as though they mean the same thing. Yes, the things in the movie happened, they are facts. What are NOT facts are Michael Moore's accusations as to WHY they happened. That's where his SLANT comes into play and what makes this moive NON-FACTUAL.

 

[BigBallaGA]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/