First cycle... What do u think?

[darklight]

Hi Guys!!

Think i need some answers and opinions here!

Thought at first in this cycle:


Nolvadex(20 mg each dayfrom all cycle till end of clomid)
1.....SUSTANON/250 mg..........................
2.....SUSTANON/250 mg.........................
3.....SUSTANON/250 mg..........................
4.....SUSTANON/250 mg..........................
5.....SUSTANON/250 mg..........................
6.....SUSTANON/250 mg..........................
7.........WINSTROL..100mg........DECA..200mg
8.........................100mg.................300mg.
9.........................100mg.................300mg.
10........................100mg................300mg.
11........................100mg................200mg.
12........................100mg................200mg.
...........(3 weeks after last Deca shot)......
15.......clomid day 1 Clomid 300mg(day one)
day 2 to 11 Clomid 100mg
day 12 to 30 Clomid 50mg


But since it's my first and it would be too long and maybe strong
thought in deca/Win basic cycle:


Nolvadex(20 mg each dayfrom all cycle till end of clomid)
1.........WINSTROL..50mg.......DECA..100mg
2.........................100mg...............200mg.
3.........................100mg...............300mg.
4........................100mg................400mg.
5........................100mg................400mg.
6........................100mg................300mg.
7........................100mg................200mg.
8........................500mg................100mg.
...........(3 weeks after last Deca shot)......
11.......clomid day 1 Clomid 300mg
day 2 to 11 Clomid 100mg
day 12 to 30 Clomid 50mg



What do you think about both?


Two question:

-Shall i shoot deca every 6 days? Since i is 100mg/ml in the 400 days do i split them in 2 of 200each and shot one at later morning and other at evening?

-winstrol shoot ever two days? Should i rotate each shot for egxmple the arm?






thks-

 

[darklight]

there is a mistake... ate the end of the deca/winny cycle in the last winny shot, that would be 50mg

 

[Mudge]

I would strongly suggest throwing that plan away bro

Test for 10 weeks, nolvadex on hand. If you wish to keep estrogen down I would use an Anti-aromatase instead, letrozol (femera) or arimidex etc, low doses especially with femera.

I dont plan to ever run Winstrol, but if I did I would have started with 50mg a day, 100 sounds insane personally. I've already felt winstrol-like pain and it is NOT a fun place to be when you hurt so bad you can barely drive home much less go to the gym, that crap belongs in the garbage

 

[darklight]

The Test E at 200 a week sounds nice about for 12 weeks!

The only stuff that makes me look by side to arimidex is the price... (i don't think that my supp can get me femara) but i think i could save for that! So arimidex would be running along with the cycle, right? stop for about 2 weeks after the last shot ?


Do you think that winstrols don't worth?
S**hit making a lot of circles here and probably a plain basic Test E is fine.

 

[Mudge]

With cycle and stop immediately after, or maybe 2 days after. With a meager 200mg of test you dont even have to worry about estrogen, if you are young you are barely going to be above normal (probably double maybe 250%).

My thoughts on winstrol, its degenerative to connective tissue (so is accutane which I do use for acne), and I dont need my biceps seperating on deads or rows. Next up, removes water from the joints and muscle tissue making for some nasty cramps and excellent joint pains, I love it when it hurts to move my knees or elbows, I just live for pain like that because I hate going to the gym. This way I can sit on the couch, watch Oprah, and scream every time I move anything.

If I competed I would probably "have to" find a way to use it, otherwise people should stop dreaming about carrying the model look all year long and just pull in some damn water and make some real gains.

 

[gr81]

ha ha, 200mgs/week. fuck that shit my man. Waste of money to run a dose that low. I know that mudge and I disagree bout this but I IMO you need to be up at arounf 800-1000mgs/week. at least 600, 200 is a theraputic dose and you will see no gains to speak of froim a dose that low. Plu it is a very VERY bad idea to run the arimdex fro 12 weeks bro. You do not want your estrogen level to be nothing. estrogen is important for several reasons, the fact that you will see more gains in strength and size with an estrogen level, your body wants to be in homeostasis and with a test level that high and estrogen production cut off, that is not a good thing. plus your cholestrol level will be through the roof. Start your test and see how your body reacts before you load up on the anti-Es. Keep them on hand just incase you respond to androgens sensitively, but if not, there si no reason to run them like that. That just means less gains 4 you. I would also run another less androgenic drugs along with your test, I wouldn't just run it by itself. You originall yhad teh deca in there, run that along with test and you will be set for a first cycle.
As for the Winny, some people like it, some people don't. I think its a good drug if the entire package is worth it to you. I certainly don't think its garbage. anyways hope that helps

 

[Mudge]

Dude, he is going to grow boobs at that dose for a first time. I am just stepping into the gram arena and I'm 248 pounds, and seriously I know guys who do fine with less.

My opinion, 400mg a week unless you are already heavy.

I put about 65 pounds on my bench with test itself as my first cycle, and kept 17 pounds.

 

[gr81]

why wait to up the dose? why not just begin at a high dose. If he is gonna grow boobs, he is gonna grow them at a lower dose. The gyno is mostly genetic. I just don't believe in casually taking steroids. I think thats foolish to spend the money and take the risks if you don't want to blow up. If you don't then your goals are probably attainable naturally and you are takin the easy way out. Do you agree with me there?

 

[Mudge]

I completely disagree with any reasoning you have to back up the idea use more now.

* No increased gains
* Increased sides, blood pressure, gyno extremly likely
* Poor lipid profiles
* Money
* No increased gains
* No increased gains

Seriously I think its irresponsible to tell someone they need to have an 800% test level to make gains, thats bullshit.

Did you put on 60 pounds in 8 weeks and live to tell about it via your higher doses?

That is high enough to put someone in complete shutdown, he doesn't need that experience for a first cycle, especially without HCG.

 

[gr81]

how can you say no increased gains?? You are telling me that a person running 400mgs/week is gonna see teh same gains as aperson running a gram/week? I would love to hear an explanation. By teh way there are lots of people who agree with my line of thinking to go high.

 

[Mudge]

A human being can only put on so much weight by eating, and can only put on so much so fast before simply dropping dead.

Thats your explanation bro, its not healthy to shoot for 50 or 60 pounds in 2 months, thats completely and utterly assinine.

 

[darklight]

whey... i'm 21! think i have good test yet... well 400 would be my limit for the first try! 1 g a week would be tuff...
and i'm 75 kg--abou 160 pnds

 

[darklight]

"incase you respond to androgens sensitively" how would i know this?

 

[darklight]

disagree with you gr at the state of spending money without gains...
I'll have to try in little stes (i think).

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by Mudge
A human being can only put on so much weight by eating, and can only put on so much so fast before simply dropping dead.

Thats your explanation bro, its not healthy to shoot for 50 or 60 pounds in 2 months, thats completely and utterly assinine.

be that as it may, the statement that a peron running a low dose will put on as much weight as a person mega dosing is assinine. 800mgs of test is not that much man. It certainly is noot unheard of. You know how many people are out there running that kind of dose or higher. Why is it ok for some and not others? You certainly are not going to drop dead from that dose either, that is ridiculous.

 

[darklight]

humm, probably not.... but it is probably more safer and healthier.

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by darklight
"incase you respond to androgens sensitively" how would i know this?

that means whether you are predestined to eth side effects such as gyno & acne and all that type of shit. Some people struggle alot with these side effects, even at low doses, and some can run mega doses and be fine. each perosn is different. you will be able to tell prett quick if you are really getting hit hard with the sides or not. make sense?

 

[Mudge]

High bodyfat, and experience which is yet another reason you dont:

#1 Use a shitload of drugs for a first cycle
#2 Use high doses for a first cycle

Using test by itself helps tell you how you respond to it, and seriously gaining 20 or 30 pounds by increased food intake is CAKE. Beyond that point it starts getting hard IMO, this is where gains become a problem, not the dose - the food.

The first time I upped my prop dose from 700 to 1050 weekly, I started feeling crappy within 2 days, I didn't last long like that, not worth it.

Who makes the test enanthate you are looking at?

 

[darklight]

can't tell you now! But i'm almost sure that is Testoviron-Depot from Schering

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by Mudge
High bodyfat, and experience which is yet another reason you dont:

#1 Use a shitload of drugs for a first cycle
#2 Use high doses for a first cycle

Using test by itself helps tell you how you respond to it, and seriously gaining 20 or 30 pounds by increased food intake is CAKE. Beyond that point it starts getting hard IMO, this is where gains become a problem, not the dose - the food.

The first time I upped my prop dose from 700 to 1050 weekly, I started feeling crappy within 2 days, I didn't last long like that, not worth it.

Who makes the test enanthate you are looking at?

just b/c you felt crappy while you upped the dose, which deosn't necessarily mean that was b/c of the dosage change, doesn't mean anything. That is how you personally responded. Doesn't mean others cant do it. Besides, that is prop, which induces symptoms like that at higher doses. Everytime I have seen anyone run high propl doses they have felt like shit. That excludes longer acting esters. What does experience have to do with it too, if you can run that dose later, you can run it sooner.

 

[Mudge]

Originally posted by gr81
be that as it may, the statement that a peron running a low dose will put on as much weight as a person mega dosing is assinine.

No it isn't, bodyweight gains come from food, not from 100 calories of oil you stuck in your ass last week.

You certainly are not going to drop dead from that dose either, that is ridiculous.

A 160 pound male does not need 800mg of test a week to make gains, this is beyond comical. I put on about 20 pounds keeping most of it, and still in that amount of time my heart rate was up especially when I moved. I sweated like a freaking whale, going much above this is not healthy and even my level of weight gain is pushing it.

600mg of test put someones blood test at 3600ng for total testosterone, if someone can't make gains off that much test then they should take up chess because they obviously dont have the stomach for it.

If a person is willing to put thier health at risk to gain 20% faster that is thier own business, but I would never push someone into doing that, or steroids for that matter. Let someone take their own life into thier hands.

How many boards do you go on and tell everyone to run such high doses for first cycles? How many people agree with you? I've never seen you anywhere else.

 

[Mudge]

Originally posted by gr81
What does experience have to do with it too, if you can run that dose later, you can run it sooner.

So in your expert, I've been running gear since May 2003 opinion, you would suggest someone jump right onto 300mg of anadrol along with 100mg of dbol and 5 grams of test and EQ weekly? How does 16iu of GH sound with that?

Is that about where you are coming from?

 

[Mudge]

Unless you can prove to me that you have put on huge, explosive gains beyond your 200 pound starting point, I will never, ever buy that you need massive doses for a starting cycle.

Steroids dont make many gains to speak of without food, and without food you will always be limited at some point, period.

Mike Francois was about your height, he could bulk off of 8000 calories and still maintain a relatively low bodyfat, that is more than I can eat but he is alot heavier than I am as well. I would also say that he obviously needs more gear, along with that food, to maintain where he is (was). Thats a given, not for a person who weighs have as much.

 

[darklight]

So then in your opinion that 200 of test would be fine by 12 weeks, right?
And about GR opinion of the use only of the anti-estr in case i'll have any androgens sensivity (how would i know this)?

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by Mudge
No it isn't, bodyweight gains come from food, not from 100 calories of oil you stuck in your ass last week.

Thanks, I thought that the weight comes out of thin air too. what was I thinking. but hey you are right, a 160 lb male doesn't need that much test, in fact he needt to drop the steroids and work his weight up naturally, not rely on eth drugs to get him there.

A 160 pound male does not need 800mg of test a week to make gains, this is beyond comical. I put on about 20 pounds keeping most of it, and still in that amount of time my heart rate was up especially when I moved. I sweated like a freaking whale, going much above this is not healthy and even my level of weight gain is pushing it.
Once again you seem to think that b/c your body responds a certain way, that everys does.
600mg of test put someones blood test at 3600ng for total testosterone, if someone can't make gains off that much test then they should take up chess because they obviously dont have the stomach for it.

If a person is willing to put thier health at risk to gain 20% faster that is thier own business, but I would never push someone into doing that, or steroids for that matter. Let someone take their own life into thier hands.
I am not pushing anyone to do anything, I am merely offering a different opinion to the subject, which you obviously can't handle someone doing. I didn't realize that what mudge says goes and your way of doing things is the absolut way of doing it.
How many boards do you go on and tell everyone to run such high doses for first cycles? How many people agree with you? I've never seen you anywhere else.
What is your point here? I don't go on baoards and tell people anything. There are lots and lots of poeple that agree with me man. i don't see why you are getting all worked up about it for, like no one has ever disagreed with you before. You have never heard of people endorsing high doses, give me a break.

 

[Mudge]

Anti estrogens are mild estrogens, which can cause a rebound, but they work fine during cycle. I prefer anti aromatase, personal choice.

200 is ok, its just not much. If you can eat though you will make gains, I made my posted gains off of 250mg of sustanon. To say that you have to have a 10x normal testosterone level to make good gains that give you a heart attack, is just irresponsible. Nobody your age needs BPH, poor lipid profiles or manboobs.

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by Mudge
So in your expert, I've been running gear since May 2003 opinion, you would suggest someone jump right onto 300mg of anadrol along with 100mg of dbol and 5 grams of test and EQ weekly? How does 16iu of GH sound with that?

Is that about where you are coming from?

now you are just putting words into my mouth. I wouldnt' advise anyone to run orals at that high a dose. I never said 5 grams of test, I said 800mgs, which is a gross exaggeration. Nor did I say 100mgs dbol or 300 abomb. That is not where I am coming from at all. I suggest that people start off high instead fo working up for some silly reason. Not extreme mega doses like you posted, but higher doses than 400 mesely mgs of test.

 

[darklight]

i've meant anti-estrog!!

 

[darklight]

how would i see that i'll need to use anti-arom? in oher words, how would i know that it's running fine?

 

[Mudge]

Originally posted by gr81
Once again you seem to think that b/c your body responds a certain way, that everys does.

You know what I feel about my genetics? I'm half way ashamed and dissapointed I use as much as I do! I am currently running 875mg cypionate, and have lowered the deca dose to joint-only levels, 150mg a week.

I in no way, shape of form feel that I have twice the receptor count of anyone else, not at all. I think my genetics lean somewhere towards the land of SUCK. I love gear and what it does for me, but it is not a fix all and it is not a one stop shop for building the package. If a newbie needs 800mg then it wouldn't be long before some lamer benching 450 is running 5 grams a week, thats ridiculous.

We obviously continue to disagree.

I am not pushing anyone to do anything, I am merely offering a different opinion to the subject, which you obviously can't handle someone doing. I didn't realize that what mudge says goes and your way of doing things is the absolut way of doing it.

My way? It was the way long long before I even heard of steroids. Nobody with a mentor worth his weight in jock straps told anyone to start out with 4 amps a week If we look at John Defendis its the same story:

It was an era when most bodybuilders relied on ballistic and animalistic training to Get Big and Grow Strong! Bodybuilders utilized nutrition and vitamins to make progress and supplemented with minimal Steroids in order to survive the torturous workouts. Now, with drugs like Growth Hormone and IGF-1 accessible, the bodybuilders of today are crying "OVERTRAINING" consistently. With steroid use and abuse running rampant, I feel that the complaints of overtraining by a young, strong, juiced up "Champion" is unwarranted.

John Defendis

This guy was lifting while I was still shitting my pants, and I invented this new protocol of drugs are not the answer?