Five Wal-Mart workers arrested while protesting

[troubador]

The dynamics in the job market have changed.
It started when companies for profit moved manufacturing jobs offshore that provided middle call wages and benefits to Americans.

It has little to do with Wal-Mart. Manufacturing as percentage of GDP and manufacturing jobs as a percentage of workforce have been steadily decreasing for 60 years.

Because all the jobs were shipped overseas? Not exactly.

Technology might have something do with decrease in manufacturing jobs.

Real median income was increasing until the recession.

Even home ownership looks pretty good

The lefties are lucky we had a recession so they can pretend the U.S. has gone to shit and everyone is a slave now. Unfortunately if the current trend continues median wages will go back up and weaken their argument.

 

[oufinny]

It has little to do with Wal-Mart. Manufacturing as percentage of GDP and manufacturing jobs as a percentage of workforce have been steadily decreasing for 60 years.

Because all the jobs were shipped overseas? Not exactly.

Technology might have something do with decrease in manufacturing jobs.

Real median income was increasing until the recession.

Even home ownership looks pretty good

The lefties are lucky we had a recession so they can pretend the U.S. has gone to shit and everyone is a slave now. Unfortunately if the current trend continues median wages will go back up and weaken their argument.

You're idea of growth is laughable compared to real inflation man and real recorded prices. Home ownership increased because of federal programs designed to do
That not because of real wealth creation. Household debt after the 1990s has sky rocketed; go back and find some real facts that remove the government money and programs; it's not all you say it is at all.

 

[troubador]

it's not all you say it is at all.

You're right I shouldn't have painted a portrait of paradise with such wild exaggerations as "Real median income was increasing until the recession." and "Even home ownership looks pretty good".

 

[troubador]

Also, your post is an obvious strawman since mine was about the supposed changing dynamic of the workplace not how great everything is. I showed how manufacturing was steadily decreasing before Wal-Mart came around and how it's paralleled the rest of the world fairly close. So in conclusion (so you don't miss it again) it's a myth that the job dynamic has had a black and white change from manufacturing to low wage retail recently and that Wal-Mart has had much to do with it. The shift we've seen has two components 1) the steady decline in manufacturing that's been occurring over 60 years and 2) the typical dip in manufacturing during a recession.

 

[LAM]

It has little to do with Wal-Mart. Manufacturing as percentage of GDP and manufacturing jobs as a percentage of workforce have been steadily decreasing for 60 years.

Because all the jobs were shipped overseas? Not exactly.

Technology might have something do with decrease in manufacturing jobs.

Real median income was increasing until the recession.

Even home ownership looks pretty good

The lefties are lucky we had a recession so they can pretend the U.S. has gone to shit and everyone is a slave now. Unfortunately if the current trend continues median wages will go back up and weaken their argument.

why are you trying to understate the cumulative effect of these events when the current status of the US economy and sluggish real GDP growth is proof positive of the effects?

manufacturing is what boosted US wealth and allowed the country to rise to Superpower status from WWII until that boos ran out in the 60's when the rest of the world caught up to the US manufacturing capabilities. remember that real wealth is only created in the manufacturing and or production of commodities. the US is the first major country in the world to enter the post industrial era but the first country to really do so is Mexico. when the Peso collapsed the Mexican economy was restructured to service the US. the majority of manufacturing there are exports to the US or actually intra-firm transfers from the US to Mexico for light assembly then "imported" back in the US tariff free. but for the most part in Mexico what do you have a large low paid service sector that can not support it's population. there are far more people looking for work than it can employ. exactly like the US is today.

50,000 us manufacturing plants have been lost since China joined the WTO and what is the end result? higher paying union jobs with benefits and pensions lost and replaced with part-time low wage service sector jobs.

Home ownership doesn't mean squat anymore, not even nobel prize winning economist Robert Shiller thinks it is, the most knowledge person on the planet when it comes to US housing.

Shiller's Lesson: Housing Was Never a Great Investment - Bloomberg

since 2008 investment houses have been buying up homes, causing housing supply's to decrease and homes to again "artificially appreciate".

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/behind-the-rise-in-house-prices-wall-street-buyers/?_r=0

you say median wages would go up, why exactly? when the US currently has a large reserve workforce. there is no data to support that median wages will go up. right now babyboomers still hold the majority of high paying "middle-class" jobs at around the $68-70K a year mark. which once adjusted for inflation are equal to $34-35K in spending power of 1990 dollars. 2000-2010 was a decades of lost wages for the working class with 99% of the gains going to the top 1%. the current process of de-leveraging will take an additional 6-8 years before debt levels fall to historical levels and US homeowners can start borrowing again.

wages for males in the US have stagnated. wages for women were rising but have also stagnated, there is only so much money RN's etc. are going to get paid, even wages in healthcare max out except at the administrator levels and above.

there is zero data to support that wages will increase when they have been falling since the 80's with only the boost during the tech sector boom years in the 90's which increases them across most of the income quintiles.

as inequality continually increases and "investment" capital continues to gain more and more it will drive wages down lower not higher.

 

[troubador]

manufacturing is what boosted US wealth and allowed the country to rise to Superpower status from WWII ...

No shit. I can't believe you wasted all that time arguing against a point I didn't make.

wages for males in the US have stagnated. wages for women were rising but have also stagnated...

there is zero data to support that wages will increase when they have been falling since the 80's

Is there a third gender I don't know about?

Rather than bubbling around contradicting yourself...I already posted the graph for median wages.

Here's men and women separately.

 

[troubador]

Poor trannies, their income must have plummeted.

 

[LAM]

No shit. I can't believe you wasted all that time arguing against a point I didn't make.



Is there a third gender I don't know about?

Rather than bubbling around contradicting yourself...I already posted the graph for median wages.

Here's men and women separately.

I contradicted myself nowhere in that post. your assertation that wages will increase is based on what?

 

[LAM]

The shift we've seen has two components 1) the steady decline in manufacturing that's been occurring over 60 years and 2) the typical dip in manufacturing during a recession.

more than two;

the decrease in both public and private sector density rates which lessen worker protections and benefits for all workers

one sided free trade agreements and the liberalization of labor and capital outflows to other country's

ever expanding US financial sector which smothers the real economy via various methods of financial engineering (libor scandal, betting against various markets, derivatives, rent seeking activities, etc.)

 

[troubador]

I contradicted myself nowhere in that post. your assertation that wages will increase is based on what?

Yes you did. Wages can't stagnate and decrease at the same time. Pretty simple. I posted a time series graph of manufacturing jobs; which have been increasing since 2010 which will likely result in an increase in median wages over the same time period. In fact median wages have increased since 2009. Historical Income Tables - People - U.S Census Bureau

 

[LAM]

Yes you did. Wages can't stagnate and decrease at the same time. Pretty simple. I posted a time series graph of manufacturing jobs; which have been increasing since 2010 which will likely result in an increase in median wages over the same time period. In fact median wages have increased since 2009. Historical Income Tables - People - U.S Census Bureau

sure can, wages can they stagnate in nominal dollars and decrease in purchasing power which would be real dollars. it's exactly why the old income benchmarks of say 50K and 100K (I want to make 6 figures, etc.) doesn't mean jack anymore as 50K today buys you want 25K does and you have to make almost 150K today to have the same purchasing power as 100K did in 2000.

the small amount of manufacturing jobs doesn't mean jack squat either, not with the velocity of money tanking since the end of the 1990's. the velocity of money is a direct indicator of demand. demand has been decreasing since the late 90's with only a small boost during a couple of years in the 2000's during the manufactured housing boom, which we know was all based on the expansion of debt and not real income growth.

Velocity of M2 Money Stock (M2V) - FRED - St. Louis Fed

Bruce Barlett explains it all here in plan english.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/its-the-aggregate-demand-stupid/?_r=0

 

[LAM]

you also see another small increase in the velocity of money from the limited effect of the 2009 stimulus, which as several nobel prize winning economists stated was far too small to counter the negative effects of the economic downturn.

 

[Swiper]

you also see another small increase in the velocity of money from the limited effect of the 2009 stimulus, which as several nobel prize winning economists stated was far too small to counter the negative effects of the economic downturn.

Obama admin has access to the worlds best economists. yet no one told him it was too small and wouldn't work? Or because it failed miserably and this is just an excuse that it was too small? Or the Obama admin is so incompetent they just don't know any better?

 

[oufinny]

you also see another small increase in the velocity of money from the limited effect of the 2009 stimulus, which as several nobel prize winning economists stated was far too small to counter the negative effects of the economic downturn.

It was not needed in the first place; I will never swallow that Keynesian pill. It was a hodgepodge put together based on a number, 800 billion, Nancy and Harry wrote on a damn napkin. Don't act like it was done smartly or even remotely targeted as it was just a massive hand out to K street lobbyist and pork barrel shit projects in representatives districts. You have to be smart enough to see the obvious filth that it was.

 

[troubador]

sure can, wages can they stagnate in nominal dollars and decrease in purchasing power which would be real dollars.

You didn't specify the first time and now act like you're handing down an education. This is why talking to you is such a waste of time.

 

[LAM]

Obama admin has access to the worlds best economists. yet no one told him it was too small and wouldn't work? Or because it failed miserably and this is just an excuse that it was too small? Or the Obama admin is so incompetent they just don't know any better?

I guess you don't remember what happened. the right didn't want any stimulus at all because of the deficit hawks and the left wanted much more so they added in a bunch of useless tax cuts (about 30% of the stimulus) in an attempt to gather some support from the right. this was the first failed attempt by the Obama admin to pass some bi-partisan legislation.

Boehner to GOP: Vote against stimulus - Patrick O'Connor and Jonathan Martin - POLITICO.com

Breakdown of Funding @ Recovery.gov

Tax cuts historically having the least bang for the buck in regards to stimulus as seen in page 5 of the EPI report.

http://www.epi.org/files/page/-/old/briefingpapers/BriefingPaper304 (4).pdf

 

[jay_steel]

I have no sympathy for people who feel they are underpaid... If you are stuck in a pay situation then you need to rethink your day of production and see where you can start a better education. There are enough online and night classes that people can take advantage of to better their education or training. My old friends dad was this worked fast food and did auto repairs out of his garage. Decided to go to night school for 4 years and ended up working for the county under CPS and makes 80k a year. YES those 4 years were HARD and hard on his family but it was something he had to do. His entire education was paid for as well because he was low income. This is a guy that went back to school at 40 years old. So i am sorry but if you have the energy to protest for wages then you should also have the energy to find a way to better your self. I am not taking away from their freedom of speech, but if i did not like an organizations values i would never work for them, even if it was my only option. The amount of programs there are for low income they should be taken advantage more of. The problem is most people only want to take advantage of the programs that require the less amount of effort on their part.

As for the people getting arrested, that is their fault and they can not bitch about it. They were asked to leave, if you feel like your rights are being taken away then get the badge number of the officer and file a complaint of civil rights and move your protest to the corner. There are tactful and diplomatic ways to handle a situation. Also protesting in an error that is not marked off in a public street is not smart. You say they have the right because its a public street, but i also have a right because its a public street to use it for transportation. Also what if an emergency vehicle needed to cross and they have lights and sirens on flying down the street, that could be your child in danger that needs to get a to a hospital while these guys are protesting in the road blocking traffic.

There are many other ways to handle a situation and it may be their right to protest, but at the same time if your willing to exercise that right then you also have to be willing to accept the fact that does not give you the right to do it and any way you desire. If this was the case then there would be no problem chaining my self protesting the fire station and not allowing fire trucks to leave the station.