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For all of the atheist and agnostics...
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bandaidwoman said:
Microevolution is a far cry from the evolution of species.
"Two of the biggest weaknesses of evolutionary theory are:
There is no adequate explanation for the origin of life from dead chemicals. Even the simplest life form is tremendously complex.
The fossil record, our only documentation of whether evolution actually occurred in the past, lacks any transitional forms, and all types appear fully-formed when first present. The evidence that "pre-men" (ape-men) existed is dubious at best. So called pre-man fossils turn out to be those of apes, extinct apes, fully man, or historical frauds. "
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Wars are fought for economic/political reasons. Even our conflict with Al Qaeda isnt a religious war, at least to us. Funny thought that about eradicating religion, didnt the communists try and do that. Going to mass back then would get you a trip to a gulag, and still will in many countries even today.
Ive looked into the eyes of people who have done horrendous things. One guy had strangled his 76yo mother and then caved her head in with a telephone for good measure. Looking into his eyes you just didnt see a person there, there just wasnt any soul inside him. The problem isnt "to much" religious values ; Its "not enough" of them. We have religious schools and public ones. Just guess which one we "police" have to go to 99% of the time?
Religion teaches kids good values. This country has gone to hell because of the destruction of religious values and the liberals,commies and ACLU are trying to destroy it even more. Now they are trying to remove the Pledge to the Flag in schools. Boy America had better wake up.....take care........Rich
Ive looked into the eyes of people who have done horrendous things. One guy had strangled his 76yo mother and then caved her head in with a telephone for good measure. Looking into his eyes you just didnt see a person there, there just wasnt any soul inside him. The problem isnt "to much" religious values ; Its "not enough" of them. We have religious schools and public ones. Just guess which one we "police" have to go to 99% of the time?
Religion teaches kids good values. This country has gone to hell because of the destruction of religious values and the liberals,commies and ACLU are trying to destroy it even more. Now they are trying to remove the Pledge to the Flag in schools. Boy America had better wake up.....take care........Rich
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Remember, the whole point of science is to provide the "best" working model that explains the world around us. Just because Darwin's theory cannot account for this does not mean it is fallacious. Newton's universal theory of gravitation could not explain curvature of light near large masses (such as the sun), black holes and the elliptical orbits of the planets. . General relativity came along and with it the space time contiuum which finally explained these phenomenom. The Cambrian period, punctated equillibrium etc. is the black hole of the theory of evolution and we need a comprable theory of general relativity.
In other words, we don't throw out Newton's theory because he's wrong about the movement of light. This is because certain aspects of this theory have proven very useful in explaining and predicting some of the phenomena found in data.
Similarly, Darwin's theory was a rudimentary first step. and it predicts certain phenomena in the fossil record with a certain degree of accuracy. does it explain the whole thing? well no. nobody would be working on evolutionary biology if it did.
And for the record, people who adhere to the theory of evolution are not called "darwinists" they are called "evolutionary theorists." that's not pc nitpicking, it's an expression of the fact that it's misleading to call people trying to advance evolutionary biology after a theory that not one scientist will support as complete. It's like calling physicists "newtonists."
The short version: does evolution occur? absolutely - the fossil record simply couldn't be created any other way. does this evolution occur through darwinian mechanisms? no, not exlusively anyway - it's possible that darwinian mechanisms contribute, though.
I'd like to see the bible or exclusive creationism offer a better explanation.
For the record, I do not believe creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive. Evolution and creationism do not have to be mutually exclusive if that is what some people are hinting at.
My belief is that evolution is a blueprint by which God directed his creations, but that is only my belief and no amount of scientific data will prove or disprove his existance. However, the onus of burden of proof falls on proving his existance, not disproving.
Evolutionary biologists are really not as dogmatic as people believe.
As for microevolution vs. macroevolution and transitional fossils (which we have found contrary to urban myth) I'll let Scientific American's article 15 Answers to Creationist's Nonsense speak for itself and it answers them with specific detail. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&chanID=sa008
.
In other words, we don't throw out Newton's theory because he's wrong about the movement of light. This is because certain aspects of this theory have proven very useful in explaining and predicting some of the phenomena found in data.
Similarly, Darwin's theory was a rudimentary first step. and it predicts certain phenomena in the fossil record with a certain degree of accuracy. does it explain the whole thing? well no. nobody would be working on evolutionary biology if it did.
And for the record, people who adhere to the theory of evolution are not called "darwinists" they are called "evolutionary theorists." that's not pc nitpicking, it's an expression of the fact that it's misleading to call people trying to advance evolutionary biology after a theory that not one scientist will support as complete. It's like calling physicists "newtonists."
The short version: does evolution occur? absolutely - the fossil record simply couldn't be created any other way. does this evolution occur through darwinian mechanisms? no, not exlusively anyway - it's possible that darwinian mechanisms contribute, though.
I'd like to see the bible or exclusive creationism offer a better explanation.
For the record, I do not believe creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive. Evolution and creationism do not have to be mutually exclusive if that is what some people are hinting at.
My belief is that evolution is a blueprint by which God directed his creations, but that is only my belief and no amount of scientific data will prove or disprove his existance. However, the onus of burden of proof falls on proving his existance, not disproving.
Evolutionary biologists are really not as dogmatic as people believe.
As for microevolution vs. macroevolution and transitional fossils (which we have found contrary to urban myth) I'll let Scientific American's article 15 Answers to Creationist's Nonsense speak for itself and it answers them with specific detail. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&chanID=sa008
.
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Keep going guys...... you'll get no where once again..... 
You say you are here. I only see words written stating so.
I don't believe you. Prove you are here.
I don't see you, I can't touch you, I can't smell you, and I cannot hear your voice. Therefore, you aren't really here, are you?
I can see the words you post, but since I don't know that you actually wrote them, then they are of no consequence to me.....because, you don't exist to me.
Again, I say, PROVE you exist.
I don't believe you. Prove you are here.
I don't see you, I can't touch you, I can't smell you, and I cannot hear your voice. Therefore, you aren't really here, are you?
I can see the words you post, but since I don't know that you actually wrote them, then they are of no consequence to me.....because, you don't exist to me.
Again, I say, PROVE you exist.
Wow. Really, wow.busyLivin said:
You need to take a basic college intro course on evolution, and you'll actually get to touch these "mythical fossils" from our evolutionary ancestors. Stick with it long enough and you can dig them out of the ground yourself. To deny this is to assume that the entire world is trying to pull a hoax on you. In other words, that lump of flesh on top of your shoulders is malfunctioning.
The fact that we're even having this discussion in this age is disturbing. You people laugh at the crazy bum on the streets who thinks he can fly, yet the idea that humans were created by some higher power just for shits 'n gigs is perfectly agreeable?
As for calling humanity "life"... well christ, lets not get into a debate about that. Who categorizes something as "alive" or not anyway? We do. We're the most advanced hunk of biology we know of. We're on top. We're ALIVE! But you know what? We also have absolutely no point of reference. What we call "alive" some other being might pass over as mildly creative parasites. After all, for the length of our existence, we've done nothing but live to breed. Every single human is driven to the same thing by our biology. Procreate. Proliferate. Expand. What kind of mind-numbingly dull god would create a species that does the exact same repetitious bullshit for eons? Might as well go watch paint dry.
For that matter, let's assume there is a god. He created the entire universe. He initiated the "big bang." Who's to say we were his intention? After all, the universe is a pretty big place. What if we were just a byproduct of the big bang? Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen... all combining in just the right amounts to give rise to "us." So god exists, but he could care less about us - he's got the whole universe to play with. After all, scientists on earth have already been able to sum up the period from the big bang to the present with a rough equation. Who's to say that in 100 years they'll have refined that equation so as to predict our very existence? That in all that turmoil during the universe's creation, that we were simply a known byproduct. Like passing electric current through water gets you hydrogen, the universe created us. The only reason we see ourselves as somehow more important than that is our own lack of reference. We are the most impressive things we know of... yet we appear to have no purpose, other than to make as many of us as possible.
The quotation marks I had in my statement were showing that it wasn't my quote (Maybe you ought to join my return to school for a basic english class). These are simply problems with the evolutionary THEORY, nothing more. The fact that you disagree with them does not preclude the fact that they are problems with evolution or that my "lump of flesh on top of my shoulders is malfunctionig." I didn't make them up.
I have taken plenty of classes that included evolution, and I simply do not believe it. Not because my religion says so.. but because I will never buy 'something from nothing."
I'm not getting into a debate on whether or not God exists. I can't prove it & you can't disprove it. That's Dumb. wow. really, wow.
I have taken plenty of classes that included evolution, and I simply do not believe it. Not because my religion says so.. but because I will never buy 'something from nothing."
I'm not getting into a debate on whether or not God exists. I can't prove it & you can't disprove it. That's Dumb. wow. really, wow.
Ye shall knoweth God has no ego.
Ye shall knoweth God is a state of mind.
Look at the base of religions, they involve prayer, rituals or meditation. A point where we put our ego behind us and get lost in a "spiritual" realm away from reality. I think that is what is important for anyone trying to be a better person you have to empty your ego and then you realize that you aren't the only one here. The problem comes when people start feeling good and want others to feel like them kind of like the drunk friend at a party that wants you to drink with him and gets violent when you refuse.
Drunk on religion! Hey copyright 2004 I'm gonna write a book on it.
It's too sad that for some FEAR is their only God.
Ye shall knoweth God is a state of mind.
Look at the base of religions, they involve prayer, rituals or meditation. A point where we put our ego behind us and get lost in a "spiritual" realm away from reality. I think that is what is important for anyone trying to be a better person you have to empty your ego and then you realize that you aren't the only one here. The problem comes when people start feeling good and want others to feel like them kind of like the drunk friend at a party that wants you to drink with him and gets violent when you refuse.
Drunk on religion! Hey copyright 2004 I'm gonna write a book on it.
It's too sad that for some FEAR is their only God.
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maniclion said:
Your decscription reminds me of buddist philosophy. I agree with how sad that fear can be the only driving force for some as their main relationship with a god, as you mentioned.
As for using straw man argument to beat down evolution, well, that's just it.
In addition, I want to reinforce that a healthy skepticism towards itself is what distinguishes science from religion.
One of the problems with creationism is that it's not scientifically falsifiable. It's easy to create ad hoc explanations for every observation in a system that does not require completeness -- that is, any observation can be explained by 'god made it that way'. This means that creationism is worthless as a scientific theory and that it cannot be debunked. Even as a scientist who believes in a God, I have to admit this.
This suggests that the appropriate tactic for debunking creationism is not to demonstrate that it is incorrect, but to demonstrate that it is superfluous.
As for complexity being the argument for intelligent design I won't go into how in an infinite period of time randomness can become complex. Experimentally we have produced complex proteins and amino acids from raw molecules in a trivial amount of time (we have even found non-racemic amino acids on meteorites). Also, I would look at the the examples mentioned in the scientific american article I posted..... don't want to plagarize.
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I like to beleive the story that for the missing years of Jesus' life he had traveled to Tibet and picked up Buddhist ideas. For example;
The following issues may support the view that Jesus is a Buddhist:
1. Jesus had expounded his doctrine of patience, non-violence and compassion which was seemingly an opposite view to that of the God according to the Old Testament. Jesus preached and asked his followers to turn the other cheek when somebody slapped you, whist an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth in the Mosaic Law clearly denoted retaliation and vengeance which were regarded as justice.
2. In the Revelation of St John, a Christian scripture written down in Greek in the Eastern Mediterranean (v. 1) it refers to a book closely sealed with seven seals. St John weeps bitterly (v. 4) because he sees no one worthy to open the book and to break its seals. This can be done by the Lamb alone, slaughtered in sacrifice (v. 9). There is a similar book in Mahayana Buddhism, The Perfection of Wisdom sealed with seven seals, written in Sanskrit in South India. The book has 8000 lines and in chapters 30 and 31 it describes in detail how Everweeping Bodhisattva slaughtered himself in sacrifice, and how he thereby became worthy of the Perfection of Wisdom. This parallel is remarkable not only for the similarities of the religious logic, but also for the fact that both have seven seals. (1)
3. A parable from the Gospels, the teachings or revelations of Christ, (Matthew 13, 1-23; Mark 4, 1-20; Luke 8, 4-15) has a similarity to that of the Buddha???s teachings. ???People hear my words: a farmer goes to sow his fields. The birds come and eat the seeds. Other seed falls on the path. And behold, some seed falls on the rock where there is no earth, and withers away. Some falls under the thorns and cannot grow. The seed that falls on good earth, however, sprouts and brings forth fruit. The farmer is Jesus and the seeds are his words of wisdom. The seeds which are eaten by the birds means people who do not understand the words. The seeds that falls onto the rocks are the words of wisdom that go in one ear and come out of the other. The seeds that land under the thorns means those who hear and see, but do not act accordingly. The seeds which land on the good earth means those that hear the words of wisdom and act accordingly. (2)
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/jesus.htm
The following issues may support the view that Jesus is a Buddhist:
1. Jesus had expounded his doctrine of patience, non-violence and compassion which was seemingly an opposite view to that of the God according to the Old Testament. Jesus preached and asked his followers to turn the other cheek when somebody slapped you, whist an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth in the Mosaic Law clearly denoted retaliation and vengeance which were regarded as justice.
2. In the Revelation of St John, a Christian scripture written down in Greek in the Eastern Mediterranean (v. 1) it refers to a book closely sealed with seven seals. St John weeps bitterly (v. 4) because he sees no one worthy to open the book and to break its seals. This can be done by the Lamb alone, slaughtered in sacrifice (v. 9). There is a similar book in Mahayana Buddhism, The Perfection of Wisdom sealed with seven seals, written in Sanskrit in South India. The book has 8000 lines and in chapters 30 and 31 it describes in detail how Everweeping Bodhisattva slaughtered himself in sacrifice, and how he thereby became worthy of the Perfection of Wisdom. This parallel is remarkable not only for the similarities of the religious logic, but also for the fact that both have seven seals. (1)
3. A parable from the Gospels, the teachings or revelations of Christ, (Matthew 13, 1-23; Mark 4, 1-20; Luke 8, 4-15) has a similarity to that of the Buddha???s teachings. ???People hear my words: a farmer goes to sow his fields. The birds come and eat the seeds. Other seed falls on the path. And behold, some seed falls on the rock where there is no earth, and withers away. Some falls under the thorns and cannot grow. The seed that falls on good earth, however, sprouts and brings forth fruit. The farmer is Jesus and the seeds are his words of wisdom. The seeds which are eaten by the birds means people who do not understand the words. The seeds that falls onto the rocks are the words of wisdom that go in one ear and come out of the other. The seeds that land under the thorns means those who hear and see, but do not act accordingly. The seeds which land on the good earth means those that hear the words of wisdom and act accordingly. (2)
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/jesus.htm
Mahayana Buddhism is a belief spoiled by gods-worshipping Chinese. It is nth more than invented by people. The true words of Buddhism were lost by those f**king idiots who forged Theravada Buddhism to suit their taste, and sounding like theirs is better. Whenever the Westerns look at practices of Buddhists, they only see those of Mahayana, Tao and others mal-adjustedly evolved from what Buddha has taught.
Buddha has predicted that his Dhamma era will last only for about 5000 years and it has been more than 2500 since the day he went to Nirvana. There will be more religions associated with Buddhism later on...but this is what expected long ago. Better not criticise any religion. However, there are a lot of stupidity in many religious contents....like anyone who doesn't believe in what will go to hell...like a what animal should be sacrificed cruelly, instead of in more humane way...
Look there are a lot of religions we inherited from past. There is only one truth...and this is just a matter of choice cos we don't know what it is.
Actually this is a f**king sick world even if I am a billionaire living in a peaceful country with very good health (and don't need viagra). Millions of people are in poverty and sin, struggling just to survive...while a handful of ppl living well. Do u think u can be happy if u see millions of wretched ppl? What taught us to feel for others? Did God told us to do so? This is what human are. And I don't wanna give a credit to God for this. We will be doing for ourselves and others as much as we can. This is worth living. I don't need a God for all I do good. There are many ways to live without God.
Anyway this is a sick world. I hate it. I don't wanna see anyone killing, torturing, hating, despising each other on this tiny world.
Nvm it is just a maximum of 100 yr u can live here.
Buddha has predicted that his Dhamma era will last only for about 5000 years and it has been more than 2500 since the day he went to Nirvana. There will be more religions associated with Buddhism later on...but this is what expected long ago. Better not criticise any religion. However, there are a lot of stupidity in many religious contents....like anyone who doesn't believe in what will go to hell...like a what animal should be sacrificed cruelly, instead of in more humane way...
Look there are a lot of religions we inherited from past. There is only one truth...and this is just a matter of choice cos we don't know what it is.
Actually this is a f**king sick world even if I am a billionaire living in a peaceful country with very good health (and don't need viagra). Millions of people are in poverty and sin, struggling just to survive...while a handful of ppl living well. Do u think u can be happy if u see millions of wretched ppl? What taught us to feel for others? Did God told us to do so? This is what human are. And I don't wanna give a credit to God for this. We will be doing for ourselves and others as much as we can. This is worth living. I don't need a God for all I do good. There are many ways to live without God.
Anyway this is a sick world. I hate it. I don't wanna see anyone killing, torturing, hating, despising each other on this tiny world.
Nvm it is just a maximum of 100 yr u can live here.
pmech
Registered
bah lack of religion and religous morals isnt what is making our kids punks that are getting into trouble, it is the lack of parenting done by the generation before mine that decided to let kids do their thing. We should be friends with our kids they say, this I agree with, but I tell yoiu what, if I told my mom to f off, then my "friend" woulda been beating my ass. So say what you will about lack of religion there, it is lack of parents being parents that cause the kids and crap we deal with today.
So to that end, I would like to quote Chris Rock from Head Of State when I say. Knock your kids out
So to that end, I would like to quote Chris Rock from Head Of State when I say. Knock your kids out
