hi! new boy here - bicep problem

[dantheman144]

hi everyone , just joined so go easy with me

done weight training on and off for quite a few years now. however, in the last 3 months ive decided after a break to go for it. i realise i may not be doing it the proper way but i go to the gym 3 times a week and do an all body workout which takes about 2 hours. Have been doign this for about 2 months and have seen quite good increases in weight and strength.

one problem though is that my biceps are getting weaker and have shown no signs of bulking up at all, whereas the rest of my body is doing fine.

why do you think this is? i was thinking i may be overworking them as obviously your biceps are involved in a lot of exercises

any help? cheers in advance

 

[JonnyStead]

Welcome!

Its possible if you're doing compound movements using the bicep (rows, pull-ups etc) and then loading isolation work in on top (curls etc) that you're over training them, particularly if you do exactly the same work out each day of your 3 days a week. To help the guys on here advise you better - post some details of your routine?

 

[dantheman144]

ok this is my routine

youll have to excuse my lack of knowledge on the jargon so ill just describe it as best i can

i wont always do it in the same order and try to do it 3 times a week
will do 3 sets between 4-8 reps to failure
fw - free weights

chest
either bench press (fw) or machine
incline bench press with barbells (fw) or on machine
that machine where you grab the handles with pulleys
fly machine

back
lat pulldown machine
row machine
dumbell row with knee on bench facing floor (fw)
bent over flys arms back

arms
biceps
dumbell curls
barbell curls or preacher bar curls
curls on pulleys

triceps
with pulleys push down
dips
one where you have arm in air and bend up from behind head

shoulders
barbells raised in front
barbells raised to sides
shrugs
machine press up in air

legs
squats on machine
front leg extension
hamstring extension

right thas it

as i said sorry about the lack of knowledge
i wont always do all those things and will often try other exercises to vary it.

i would say that previously to this last session of working out my chest and arms were my strngest point. however since doing this workout i have noticed less improvement in those areas than elsewhere. for example my biceps are almost getting smaller and also getting pain, my chest is getting a very small bit stronger and not much size difference , particularly in the last month. whereas other areas are going much better than i thought they would

cheers everyone

 

[Irons77]

I think you should do a push/pull/leg programme on mon, Wed, Fri.

 

[Triple Threat]

Two months of that routine three times a week? You're probably overtrained and you need to back off a bit. Try Irons suggestion for a week or two, and then try going back to what you were doing.

BTW, 12 sets for bis, 3 times a week is overkill.

 

[tomuchgear]

definetly back of on the iso movements. two or three exercises for your biceps is really all you need. they get plenty of work through compound movements.

 

[Protheus]

Take a full week off to begin with.

Reduce the volume so that you can get through your whole body routine in an hour or less. Maybe just 2 exercises per bodypart eg. Back do pulldowns and BB or DB row, Chest - Dips and Incline BB or DB press. etc

Try cutting direct arm work out altogether.

Cut down sessions to twice weekly.

Thats what I'd do in your situation.

 

[lucifuge]

wow, holy overtraining dantheman!
for starters, listen to the advice above (take a week off, and drop some of the volume)
then read these:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/60738-training-101-a.html

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/training/60741-designing-training-routines-cowpimp.html

 

[dantheman144]

cheers for the advice chaps

it just feels like to drop down to 1 hour twice a week from 2 hours 3 times a week i wouldnt be doing any good. i wanna lose a bit of fat too.

i trained yesterday and did biceps first which seemed today to have worked them in a better way.

was thinking that if i do a full body three times a week then that should be fine as long as i vary the exercises, and what i was gonna do was take out the pure bicep exercises in one of the sessions so would only be working the biceps twice a week on their own. then i would just hope that they could recover and gain bulk even though id be using them in the compound exercises on the other workout day

if that makes sense

 

[tomuchgear]

ok the only thing you should do for biceps first is a warm up. taxing them from the get is only going to reduce your strentgh for compound movements.

 

[lucifuge]

cheers for the advice chaps

it just feels like to drop down to 1 hour twice a week from 2 hours 3 times a week i wouldnt be doing any good. i wanna lose a bit of fat too.

i trained yesterday and did biceps first which seemed today to have worked them in a better way.

was thinking that if i do a full body three times a week then that should be fine as long as i vary the exercises, and what i was gonna do was take out the pure bicep exercises in one of the sessions so would only be working the biceps twice a week on their own. then i would just hope that they could recover and gain bulk even though id be using them in the compound exercises on the other workout day

if that makes sense

bad idea, allow me to re-iterate:
wow, holy overtraining dantheman!
for starters, listen to the advice above (take a week off, and drop some of the volume)
then read these:
IronMagazine Bodybuilding Forum - discuss bodybuilding & fitness (Training 101)

IronMagazine Bodybuilding Forum - discuss bodybuilding & fitness (Designing training routines by Cowpimp)

believe me, you'll body will thank you

 

[dantheman144]

yeh i know youre all right
thing is ive read those articles and now all of a sudden things have got very complicated..
i think i need to try to design a program that is scaled down and properly structured , eat properly and if i wanna work out more then throw in some cardio , as i need to lose some fat.

i think half the problem is in my mind , i just dont think doing an hour workout 3 times a week would give me what i want , which is basically to build up

 

[lucifuge]

now you're getting it!
you don't grow in the gym...

 

[Protheus]

In this review, comparing and drawing together the results from many studies, the general conclusion is that training a bodypart three times a week is no better than twice:

http://www.hh.se/download/18.3322f6e4119352085628000241/J-Wernbom-The-Influence-of-Frequency.pdf

If you are looking for a structured routine HST applies the principles of progressive overload in a systematic and logical fashion - plus you can train 3 times a week - but with much more MODERATE volume than you do at present.

Hypertrophy-Specific Training : : Official Home of HST

Just a suggestion.

- but whatever you do remember more doesn't neccessarily equal better.

 

[dantheman144]

ok im listening here fellas i think

hows this for my plan
day 1 chest /triceps/shoulders
day 2 back / biceps / legs ( i dont really car about having big legs and have quite a bit of lower back pain
day 3 sort of a bit of a mix of the above but keeping the volume down , or how about just using the machines to isolate?, reason i say that is cos some of the exercises im a bit worried about them causing injury as have probs with my shoulders (rotator cuffs) so if i move them in a bad way it could put me out for months. i have no training partner either to step in.

ive done day 1, what do you think.

im aiming for building bulk (hypertrophy? see ive been reading) but i would also want some strength increases, but the main reason is to build.
so because of that for all the exercises im gonna aim for 3 sets and reps between 4 - 8. so if i can do more than 8 the weights goes up and if less than 4 the weight gets dropped off

ok here goes

chest
flat bb bench press
incline db press
flat db flys
machine press

triceps
dips *3
tricep push downs on machine
one handed tricep kickbacks

shoulders
arnold press or military press
shrugs db
lateral raises
bent over raises


thats my day 1, working on other days

 

[dantheman144]

ok im gonna change this to workout a and b. gonna aim to have one days rest inbetween and alternate between the 2.

so day 1 as above will have added stuff

this is
abs, various crunches , situps etc
legs
squats (machine)
leg xtension for quads (machine)
leg xtension for hamstrings (machine)

as i said befopre not interested in big legs and have lower back pain

ok
day 2
biceps
ez bar preacher curl
alternate dumbell curls
barbell curls

back
wide grip lat pull down (machine)
pull ups
one arm dumbell rows
horizontal rows (machine)

legs and abs as above

the way i look at it im doing the main body parts quite heavily twice a week instead of 3 now..

am i learning?

 

[Protheus]

Much better Dantheman but here are a few points:

-If you build size strength will come - a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle

-Train your back before your biceps (maybe just an order mistake in typing above but just in case!)

-I would classify dips as primarily a chest exercise - not an isolation exercise for your triceps though they are very strongly involved

If you must train your biceps directly keep it to just one isolation exercise and 1-2 sets at the most after working your back. The same goes for triceps after doing chest/shoulders. Personally though I wouldn't do any direct arm work at all to begin with and see how you get on - the biceps and triceps get good stimulation from back/chest/shoulder work. Also, I wouldn't bother doing any isolation exercises (eg lateral/bent over raises, flyes etc) I'd just concentrate on the compounds.

Good Luck !

 

[dantheman144]

cheers for the response mate

i had another idea of how may be this problem came about. before when i wasnt taking it seriously i would just do some bench press and bicep curls to keep my chest and arms in shape. because of this these parts of my body i suppose are over devoloped to the rest of me. do you think because im seeing big gains in areas other than my chest and biceps that the rest of my body is sort of 'catching up' with my chest and biceps?

 

[Protheus]

Yes definitely

If you are now training parts that haven't been trained before you will experience initial rapid gains in those areas.

 

[dantheman144]

so when my body deems im in proportion (not that im some sort of freak lol) i will start to make gains on biceps and chest?

 

[Protheus]

Thats a difficult one...

Ideally you should be making progress in all your bodyparts, but for those areas you haven't trained very hard before the gains will be more rapid.

It could be you are experiencing a localised overtraining effect in your chest and biceps, and reducing the volume will alleviate this.

If in doubt I would take a week off. I know this is hard to do mentally because you feel it will hinder your progress or your muscles might atrophy - they wont ! In fact I bet if you took a week off you would return stronger than you are now - It's only 7 days and may be just what the doctor ordered.

Take a close look at the HST site again - particularly the way the loading is manipulated - and follow the pattern of progressive overload/peaking/backing off then progressing and peaking again at a higher loading (the 15s, 10s, and 5s). This will give you structure and you know each workout just how may sets and reps you will be doing.

 

[dantheman144]

cheers protheus, well im off on holiday in 3 weeks for 2 weeks so will use that as my break .

i think i need to get my head round this HST program as it just doesnt seem enough . i think i have it in my head that more is better and i need to absolutely kill my muscles . i also need to get my head round increasing reps as i was always under the impression that 4-6 was good for hrpertrophy, here its going as high as 12-15

 

[Protheus]

Not enough you say ? I'd better not tell you then that I used to do a whole body routine that consisted of as little as 8 working sets for the entire body - thats right - not 8 per muscle group - 8 in TOTAL. And I grew big (for my build) and strong beyond what I thought I was capable of.

The 15's are mainly to condition joints and tendons, but certain types of muscle fibre respond better to higher rep ranges too.

You don't have to follow it to the letter - more the general principles espoused.

Try visiting the forums there and ask advice - they seem like a good bunch of very knowledgeable chaps !

Hope you have a nice Hol !

 

[lucifuge]

in addition, you gotta make sure your nutrition's squared away or you won't grow regardless of your routine