I finally did it!

[Mudge]

I was reading on another board how one particular guy just started doing them again, and his plan is every other week only. He runs 600 for reps

 

[chris mason]

Oh my lord Chris...the above post was not my opinion, but fact. It is not my opinion that the sun rises and sets each day, its a fact.

Do you accept anything that was not written in a textbook or scientific journal?

And you are not an idiot, but one stubborn muther frucker.

There is a big difference between the fact that the sun rises and sets and what you are stating. I can tell you EXACTLY why the sun does rise and set, it isn't just my opinion.

When someone squats and has relatively strong hip flexors and glutes that does not necessarily mean they are not working their quads hard. It is not a fact that squats are not working their qauds hard.

 

[Tank316]

There is a big difference between the fact that the sun rises and sets and what you are stating. I can tell you EXACTLY why the sun does rise and set, it isn't just my opinion.

When someone squats and has relatively strong hip flexors and glutes that does not necessarily mean they are not working their quads hard. It is not a fact that squats are not working their qauds hard.

Great go get a job as a weather man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Saturday Fever]

Great, offer something useful to the conversation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tank316]

Great, offer something useful to the conversation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did, humor.

 

[Saturday Fever]

Haha, fair enough. I've got no beef with you or this thread, I probly should have just kept my mouth shut.

 

[CowPimp]

I did, humor.

Very dignified response.

 

[chris mason]

Here is the point. It is erroneous to conclude that because someone tends to use more back and hip in their squatting that their quads are not being maximally stressed. The quads may be the limiting factor in the movement and the hips and back are being incorporated more heavily in order to complete the movement.

Obviously it depends on the lifter.

Are squats necessary for large thighs? No. Will they make most people a lot bigger and stronger? Yep.

I am really not disagreeing with you at all Eric, just asking you to prove your point with something other than bodybuilding rhetoric.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Yup. Olympic squats are what you see most bb'ers doing (high bar, narrow stance), and PL squats you see very rarely in gyms unless you go to a hardcore gym where ppl actually know what they are doing. I have been doing PL squats for months now and at my peak i squatted 405 for a single, however yesterday (it was the first workout in 2 weeks so that might be another factor) i squatted olympic style and hit 295 for 4. Due to the huge difference in the two squats i would say ppl should figure out ways to cycle both as i will do in the future. And yes when squatting like a PL you don't feel too much in your quads, whereas Oly squats your quads are getting hit very hard (front squats, rack position not that pussy bb'er shit, are also great for the quads).

thats funny cuz everyone i know does pl squats, i almost never see anyone doing olympic, i myself have always done pl, just started doing olympics yesterday...not b/c i saw this thread...but b/c i needed a change in squat, since i never do it, and need something new to start off my legs

 

[Yanick]

thats funny cuz everyone i know does pl squats, i almost never see anyone doing olympic, i myself have always done pl, just started doing olympics yesterday...not b/c i saw this thread...but b/c i needed a change in squat, since i never do it, and need something new to start off my legs

I was just speaking from personal experience, having spent almost all of my weightlifting career in a Bally's you tend to have to lift with the stupidest people in the world (atleast the city).

 

[gopro]

Here is the point. It is erroneous to conclude that because someone tends to use more back and hip in their squatting that their quads are not being maximally stressed. The quads may be the limiting factor in the movement and the hips and back are being incorporated more heavily in order to complete the movement.

Obviously it depends on the lifter.

Are squats necessary for large thighs? No. Will they make most people a lot bigger and stronger? Yep.

I am really not disagreeing with you at all Eric, just asking you to prove your point with something other than bodybuilding rhetoric.

No its not wrong to conclude that, which is why most powerlifters, who could care less about stressing a muscle (and thus squat in such a way to use glute, back, hip, and quad power in concert), have far less developed quads than the average bodybuilder. And no, its not just b/c bodybuilders tend to be more defined...their thighs are larger (yes, yes, there are exceptions...but these usually occur in the guys that also incorporate bodybuilding strategies into their lifting).

 

[Du]

I do squats and my quads grow.

 

[chris mason]

No its not wrong to conclude that, which is why most powerlifters, who could care less about stressing a muscle (and thus squat in such a way to use glute, back, hip, and quad power in concert), have far less developed quads than the average bodybuilder. And no, its not just b/c bodybuilders tend to be more defined...their thighs are larger (yes, yes, there are exceptions...but these usually occur in the guys that also incorporate bodybuilding strategies into their lifting).

You are confusing cause and effect. Those powerlifters with relatively small thighs for their strength levels have said thighs due much more to heredity than training. For example, Phil Harrington, one of our sponsored powerlifters has squatted over 900 lbs at under 200 lbs in bodyweight. His thighs are not very large. Irrespective of how he trains they will just not grow easily. James Searcy is a 330 lb man with absolutely huge thighs from his powerlifting training.

Phil could do leg press, hack squats, you name it and he would not have huge quads. He is just not predispositioned to it.

It is a proven fact that blitzing the musculature is not necessary to stimulate growth. When someone is squatting, even if their style does not place the greatest emphasis on their quads they the quads are still being worked sufficiently to stimulate growth. If they do not respond with great hypertrophy it is heredity.

 

[Robboe]

I'm not quite with it here, what exactly is the arguement here?

 

[CowPimp]

I'm not quite with it here, what exactly is the arguement here?

Whether or not squats can induce maximal levels of hypertrophy in the quadriceps, I believe... I say sure, why not. From what I understand, progressive overload has a greater effect on hypertrophy than the level of isolation or the plane of motion.

 

[Tank316]

I believe Eric is at the Mr Olympia

 

[Arnold]

I'm not quite with it here, what exactly is the arguement here?

who knows anymore, basically eric and chris will argue and disagree on just about everything.

 

[Tank316]

who knows anymore, basically eric and chris will argue and disagree on just about everything.

LOL, look what you started when you do squats Rob!!!!

 

[DOMS]

I do squats and my quads grow.

Same here. From the lactic burn and subsequent pain from inflammation, I feel that my quads take a beating from doing squats.

 

[CowPimp]

I do squats and my quads grow.

I couldn't get significant quad growth until I started doing squats and deadlifts. However, I do not have access to a leg press or hack squat machine, so my results could have been considerably different.

 

[Robboe]

who knows anymore, basically eric and chris will argue and disagree on just about everything.

Good good, thought i'd lost the plot.

I enjoy a good arguement with Eric as much as anyone here, but from what i can gather, Chris is arguing about something that does or doesn't work for Eric?

 

[Arnold]

I thought the argument was the "mind/muscle" connection, chris wanted eric to explain exactly how this works and to prove it or something?

 

[Robboe]

I give up. Just gonna watch this little fella for a bit

 

[chris mason]

Ok, allow me to exmplain. I wasn't really arguing with the man, I just asked him to explain himself with something other than his opinion.

I suppose part of the reason is that he sounds just like Flex magazine (or the like). You know, all of the mind-muscle, bodybuilders need isolation, squats won't work the quads as hard for some as for others and so on.

I asked this because the majority of the time when he posts his thoughts he presents them as absolute fact yet he has no rational argument other than "because I said so".

I am not saying his ideas don't work, what I am trying to point out to him is that it might be better to explain his thoughts in order to give them more validity.

 

[Robboe]

Ok, allow me to exmplain. I wasn't really arguing with the man, I just asked him to explain himself with something other than his opinion.

I suppose part of the reason is that he sounds just like Flex magazine (or the like). You know, all of the mind-muscle, bodybuilders need isolation, squats won't work the quads as hard for some as for others and so on.

I asked this because the majority of the time when he posts his thoughts he presents them as absolute fact yet he has no rational argument other than "because I said so".

I am not saying his ideas don't work, what I am trying to point out to him is that it might be better to explain his thoughts in order to give them more validity.

Ahhhh! Reeto. Got it now.

Couldn't see the forest for the trees and all that jazz. Fair point actually.

 

[gopro]

The facts are simple, but Chris just wants me to go into a scientific diatribe as to why squats will not cause maximum growth for everyone, and/or why not "feeling" squats, having squats cause pain in the lower back, or being a hip/glute or lower back squatter should take anything away from the movement. He doesn't like me to speak from vast experience, anectodal evidence or state my opinion, when most of the people he most admires in this game are doing just that (all top coaches in all areas of lifting). I can speak in text book science if I wish to, and sometimes it is necessary. However, for the sake of this argument, it is not.

SOME PEOPLE CANNOT SQUAT IN A WAY WHERE MAXIMUM TENSION IS BEING PUT ON THE QUADS!! SOME PEOPLE WILL IN FACT ACHIEVE MORE HYPERTROPHY FROM HACK SQUATS AND/OR LEG PRESSES, THAN FROM SQUATS. HOW THE EXERCISE IS PERFORMED...HOW YOU FEEL DURING THE EXERCISE...THE ABILITY TO MENTALLY "LOCATE" THE MUSCLE YOU ARE TRYING TO WORK...AS WELL AS A FEW OTHER FACTORS WILL HAVE A DIRECT EFFECT ON HOW MUCH CAN BE ACHIEVED FROM SQUATS, JUST LIKE BENCHES, OR DEADLIFTS. SIMPLY BENDING THE KNEES, GETTING YOUR THIGHS TO PARALLEL OR JUST BELOW, THEN GETTING BACK UP, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MAKE FOR A MAXIMALLY EFFECTIVE QUAD EXERCISE.

 

[CowPimp]

The facts are simple, but Chris just wants me to go into a scientific diatribe as to why squats will not cause maximum growth for everyone, and/or why not "feeling" squats, having squats cause pain in the lower back, or being a hip/glute or lower back squatter should take anything away from the movement. He doesn't like me to speak from vast experience, anectodal evidence or state my opinion, when most of the people he most admires in this game are doing just that (all top coaches in all areas of lifting). I can speak in text book science if I wish to, and sometimes it is necessary. However, for the sake of this argument, it is not.

SOME PEOPLE CANNOT SQUAT IN A WAY WHERE MAXIMUM TENSION IS BEING PUT ON THE QUADS!! SOME PEOPLE WILL IN FACT ACHIEVE MORE HYPERTROPHY FROM HACK SQUATS AND/OR LEG PRESSES, THAN FROM SQUATS. HOW THE EXERCISE IS PERFORMED...HOW YOU FEEL DURING THE EXERCISE...THE ABILITY TO MENTALLY "LOCATE" THE MUSCLE YOU ARE TRYING TO WORK...AS WELL AS A FEW OTHER FACTORS WILL HAVE A DIRECT EFFECT ON HOW MUCH CAN BE ACHIEVED FROM SQUATS, JUST LIKE BENCHES, OR DEADLIFTS. SIMPLY BENDING THE KNEES, GETTING YOUR THIGHS TO PARALLEL OR JUST BELOW, THEN GETTING BACK UP, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MAKE FOR A MAXIMALLY EFFECTIVE QUAD EXERCISE.

Fair enough. However, I do feel that squatting olympic style is more effective at placing tension on the quad muscles than squatting with a powerlifting stance. I'm not disregarding your statements, but I just feel that considering all other variables to be equal the olympic stance is more effective at hitting the quads.

 

[chris mason]

The facts are simple, but Chris just wants me to go into a scientific diatribe as to why squats will not cause maximum growth for everyone, and/or why not "feeling" squats, having squats cause pain in the lower back, or being a hip/glute or lower back squatter should take anything away from the movement. He doesn't like me to speak from vast experience, anectodal evidence or state my opinion, when most of the people he most admires in this game are doing just that (all top coaches in all areas of lifting). I can speak in text book science if I wish to, and sometimes it is necessary. However, for the sake of this argument, it is not.

SOME PEOPLE CANNOT SQUAT IN A WAY WHERE MAXIMUM TENSION IS BEING PUT ON THE QUADS!! SOME PEOPLE WILL IN FACT ACHIEVE MORE HYPERTROPHY FROM HACK SQUATS AND/OR LEG PRESSES, THAN FROM SQUATS. HOW THE EXERCISE IS PERFORMED...HOW YOU FEEL DURING THE EXERCISE...THE ABILITY TO MENTALLY "LOCATE" THE MUSCLE YOU ARE TRYING TO WORK...AS WELL AS A FEW OTHER FACTORS WILL HAVE A DIRECT EFFECT ON HOW MUCH CAN BE ACHIEVED FROM SQUATS, JUST LIKE BENCHES, OR DEADLIFTS. SIMPLY BENDING THE KNEES, GETTING YOUR THIGHS TO PARALLEL OR JUST BELOW, THEN GETTING BACK UP, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MAKE FOR A MAXIMALLY EFFECTIVE QUAD EXERCISE.

Hmmm, I hate to drag this point on but you realize the above explanation is nothing other than "I said so".

Fair enough, no need to continue. I will say no more.

 

[Robboe]

Hmmm, I hate to drag this point on but you realize the above explanation is nothing other than "I said so".

Honestly though, Chris, judging from history and previous experiences...Were you expecting anything else?

 

[ALBOB]

I have really small muscles and I'm out of my mind, how do I make a connection?

P.S. to chris mason: When Eric and I were talking at the Mr. Olympia Expo he really was saying what a great guy he thinks you are.