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Is there such a thing as a healthy breakfast cereal???
- Thread starter Uthinkso
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what studies are you looking at in pre-menopausal women?
again, what is the dosage that they are taking. Not that I am disagreeing with. Like I said, I don't think it is great. But, the research is really looking at upper limit dosages of soy.
The birth control issue i will just throw out the window because i don't think normal healthy people should be fucking with their horomones. I agree with you.
dude, grow the fuck up.
Kurzer MS, Hormonal Effects of Soy Isoflavones: Studies in Premenopausal and Postmenopausal Women, Journal of Nutrition. 2000;130:660S-661S.
INTRODUCTION
It has long been recognized that phytoestrogens exert hormonal effects in cell culture systems and animals, but effects in humans have not been studied until quite recently. The primary hypothesis of most researchers has been that phytoestrogens lower estrogen levels and action in the high estrogen milieu of premenopausal women and act as estrogen agonists in the low estrogen milieu of postmenopausal women. It has been proposed further that antiestrogenic effects of soy isoflavone consumption may lower breast cancer risk in premenopausal women, whereas estrogenic effects may benefit the cardiovascular system, bone and vasomotor systems in peri- and postmenopausal women. Thus, hormonal effects might explain epidemiologic observations of lowered risk of chronic diseases and menopausal symptoms in populations that consume soy.
Despite the growing body of data, effects of soy consumption on endogenous plasma hormones have been inconsistent, probably as a result of methodological differences in subject characteristics, study design and length, determination of menstrual cycle parameters, and isoflavone form and dose. Most reported studies have used randomized crossover or parallel-arm designs, although some studies have had no true control group or diet period. Soy has been provided as isolated soy protein (ISP), soy milk, textured vegetable protein (TVP), soy flour or soy foods; isoflavones have been consumed at levels of 7???200 mg/d, and the lengths of the diet periods have ranged from 2 wk to 6 mo.
The major effects in premenopausal women consuming 45???200 mg/d of isoflavones in ISP, soymilk or TVP include decreased midcycle luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone concentrations (Cassidy et al. 1994Citation and 1995Citation , Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ); increased menstrual cycle length (Lu et al. 1996Citation ); and decreased urinary estrogens, with a preferential decrease in proposed genotoxic estrogen metabolites (Xu et al. 1998Citation ). Increased menstrual cycle length and decreased urinary estrogen excretion may suggest reduced exposure to estrogen, and both have been associated with lowered risk of breast cancer. On the other hand, soy consumption has been observed to both increase (Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ) and decrease (Lu et al. 1996Citation , Nagata et al. 1998Citation ) plasma estrogen concentrations; one study reported increased nipple aspirate volume (Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ), suggesting estrogenic effects on the breast. Other observations include no effects on endometrial biopsy results (Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ) or plasma sex hormone???binding globulin concentrations (Cassidy et al. 1994Citation and 1995Citation , Duncan et al. 1999aCitation , Nagata et al. 1998Citation , Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ). These effects appear to be due at least in part to the soy isoflavones (Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ).
Few hormonal effects have been reported in postmenopausal women consuming soy isoflavones. The major effects reported in postmenopausal women consuming 34???165 mg/d of isoflavones in ISP, soy flour or soy foods include increased sex hormone???binding globulin (Brzezinski et al. 1997Citation , Duncan et al. 1999bCitation ), a modest decrease in the frequency (Murkies et al. 1995Citation , Albertazzi et al. 1998Citation ) and severity (Brzezinski et al. 1997Citation , Washburn et al. 1999Citation ) of hot flushes and vaginal dryness, and a slight increase in vaginal cell maturation (Baird et al. 1995Citation , Wilcox et al. 1990Citation ). One study showed decreased estrogens and no effects on endometrial biopsy results (Duncan et al. 1999bCitation ). These results suggest that soy consumption exerts modest estrogenic effects, likely as a result of the presence of soy isoflavones.
Thus, soy consumption appears to exert modest hormonal effects in both pre- and postmenopausal women. The effects are generally in the direction of providing health benefits, although they are quite small and of uncertain clinical significance. Further research must be performed to clarify the magnitude and significance of the hormonal effects of soy consumption, and, if effects are seen, to establish whether the responsible components are the isoflavones or some other soy constituent.
Footnotes
1 Presented at the Third International Symposium on the Role of Soy in Preventing and Treating Chronic Disease, held in Washington, D.C., October 31???November 3, 1999. The symposium was sponsored by Archer Daniels Midland Co., Cargill Inc.-Protein Products, Central Soya, Co., Dr. Chung???s Food Company, Monsanto, Personal Care Products Company, Protein Technologies International, SoGood Int., Solbar Plant Extracts, SoyLife/Schouten, Whitehall-Robins Healthcare, the United Soybean Board and the following State Soybean Associations: Illinois Soybean Board, Indiana Soybean Board, Kentucky Soybean Promotion Board, Michigan Soybean Promotion Committee, Minnesota Soybean Research and Promotion Council, Nebraska Soybean Board, Ohio Soybean Council, South Dakota Soybean Research and Promotion Council. Publication of symposium proceedings was supported by educational grants from the United Soybean Board and the Soyfoods Association of North America. Guest Editor for this symposium was Mark Messina, Nutrition Matters, Inc., Port Townsend, WA. Back
REFERENCES
1. Albertazzi P., Pansini F., Bonaccorsi G., Zanotti L., Forini E., De Aloysio D. The effect of dietary soy supplementation on hot flushes. Obstet. Gynecol. 1998;91:6-11[Abstract]
2. Baird D. D., Umbach D. M., Lansdell L., Hughes C. L., Setchell K.D.R., Weinberg C. R., Haney A. F., Wilcox A. J., McLachlan J. A. Dietary intervention study to assess estrogenicity of dietary soy among postmenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1995;80:1685-1690[Abstract/Free Full Text]
3. Brzezinski A., Adlercreutz H., Shaoul R., Rösler A., Shmueli A., Tanos V., Schenker J. G. Short-term effects of phytoestrogen-rich diet on postmenopausal women. Menopause 1997;4:89-94
4. Cassidy A., Bingham S., Setchell K.D.R. Biological effects of a diet of soy protein rich in isoflavones on the menstrual cycle of premenopausal women. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1994;60:333-340[Abstract/Free Full Text]
5. Cassidy A., Bingham S., Setchell K. Biological effects of isoflavones in young women: importance of the chemical composition of soyabean products. Br. J. Nutr. 1995;74:587-601[Medline]
6. Duncan A. M., Merz B. E., Xu X., Nagel T. C., Phipps W. R., Kurzer M. S. Soy isoflavones exert modest effects in premenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1999a;84:192-197[Abstract/Free Full Text]
7. Duncan A. M., Underhill K. E. W., Xu X., Lavalleur J., Phipps W. R., Kurzer M. S. Modest hormonal effects of soy isoflavones in postmenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1999b;84:3479-3484[Abstract/Free Full Text]
8. Lu L.-J.W., Anderson K. E., Grady J. J., Nagamani M. Effects of soya consumption for one month on steroid hormones in premenopausal women: implications for breast cancer risk reduction. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1996;5:63-70[Abstract]
9. Murkies A. L., Lombard C., Strauss B.J.G., Wilcox G., Burger H. G., Morton M. S. Dietary flour supplementation decreases post-menopausal hot flushes: effect of soy and wheat. Maturitas 1995;21:189-195[Medline]
10. Nagata C., Takatsuka N., Inaba S., Kawakami N., Shimizu H. Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen concentrations in premenopausal Japanese women. J. Natl. Cancer Inst. 1998;90:1830-1835[Abstract/Free Full Text]
11. Petrakis N. L., Barnes S., King E. B., Lowenstein J., Wiencke J., Lee M. M., Miike R., Kirk M., Coward L. Stimulatory influence of soy protein isolate on breast secretion in pre- and postmenopausal women. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1996;5:785-794[Abstract]
12. Washburn S., Burke G. L., Morgan T., Anthony M. Effect of soy protein supplementation on serum lipoproteins, blood pressure, and menopausal symptoms in perimenopausal women. Menopause 1999;6:7-13[Medline]
13. Wilcox G., Wahlqvist M. L., Burger H. G., Medley G. Oestrogenic effects of plant foods in postmenopausal women. Br. Med. J. 1990;301:905-906
14. Xu X., Duncan A. M., Merz B. E., Kurzer M. S. Effects of soy isoflavones on estrogen and phytoestrogen metabolism in premenopausal women. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1998;7:1101-1108[Abstract]
INTRODUCTION
It has long been recognized that phytoestrogens exert hormonal effects in cell culture systems and animals, but effects in humans have not been studied until quite recently. The primary hypothesis of most researchers has been that phytoestrogens lower estrogen levels and action in the high estrogen milieu of premenopausal women and act as estrogen agonists in the low estrogen milieu of postmenopausal women. It has been proposed further that antiestrogenic effects of soy isoflavone consumption may lower breast cancer risk in premenopausal women, whereas estrogenic effects may benefit the cardiovascular system, bone and vasomotor systems in peri- and postmenopausal women. Thus, hormonal effects might explain epidemiologic observations of lowered risk of chronic diseases and menopausal symptoms in populations that consume soy.
Despite the growing body of data, effects of soy consumption on endogenous plasma hormones have been inconsistent, probably as a result of methodological differences in subject characteristics, study design and length, determination of menstrual cycle parameters, and isoflavone form and dose. Most reported studies have used randomized crossover or parallel-arm designs, although some studies have had no true control group or diet period. Soy has been provided as isolated soy protein (ISP), soy milk, textured vegetable protein (TVP), soy flour or soy foods; isoflavones have been consumed at levels of 7???200 mg/d, and the lengths of the diet periods have ranged from 2 wk to 6 mo.
The major effects in premenopausal women consuming 45???200 mg/d of isoflavones in ISP, soymilk or TVP include decreased midcycle luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone concentrations (Cassidy et al. 1994Citation and 1995Citation , Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ); increased menstrual cycle length (Lu et al. 1996Citation ); and decreased urinary estrogens, with a preferential decrease in proposed genotoxic estrogen metabolites (Xu et al. 1998Citation ). Increased menstrual cycle length and decreased urinary estrogen excretion may suggest reduced exposure to estrogen, and both have been associated with lowered risk of breast cancer. On the other hand, soy consumption has been observed to both increase (Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ) and decrease (Lu et al. 1996Citation , Nagata et al. 1998Citation ) plasma estrogen concentrations; one study reported increased nipple aspirate volume (Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ), suggesting estrogenic effects on the breast. Other observations include no effects on endometrial biopsy results (Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ) or plasma sex hormone???binding globulin concentrations (Cassidy et al. 1994Citation and 1995Citation , Duncan et al. 1999aCitation , Nagata et al. 1998Citation , Petrakis et al. 1996Citation ). These effects appear to be due at least in part to the soy isoflavones (Duncan et al. 1999aCitation ).
Few hormonal effects have been reported in postmenopausal women consuming soy isoflavones. The major effects reported in postmenopausal women consuming 34???165 mg/d of isoflavones in ISP, soy flour or soy foods include increased sex hormone???binding globulin (Brzezinski et al. 1997Citation , Duncan et al. 1999bCitation ), a modest decrease in the frequency (Murkies et al. 1995Citation , Albertazzi et al. 1998Citation ) and severity (Brzezinski et al. 1997Citation , Washburn et al. 1999Citation ) of hot flushes and vaginal dryness, and a slight increase in vaginal cell maturation (Baird et al. 1995Citation , Wilcox et al. 1990Citation ). One study showed decreased estrogens and no effects on endometrial biopsy results (Duncan et al. 1999bCitation ). These results suggest that soy consumption exerts modest estrogenic effects, likely as a result of the presence of soy isoflavones.
Thus, soy consumption appears to exert modest hormonal effects in both pre- and postmenopausal women. The effects are generally in the direction of providing health benefits, although they are quite small and of uncertain clinical significance. Further research must be performed to clarify the magnitude and significance of the hormonal effects of soy consumption, and, if effects are seen, to establish whether the responsible components are the isoflavones or some other soy constituent.
Footnotes
1 Presented at the Third International Symposium on the Role of Soy in Preventing and Treating Chronic Disease, held in Washington, D.C., October 31???November 3, 1999. The symposium was sponsored by Archer Daniels Midland Co., Cargill Inc.-Protein Products, Central Soya, Co., Dr. Chung???s Food Company, Monsanto, Personal Care Products Company, Protein Technologies International, SoGood Int., Solbar Plant Extracts, SoyLife/Schouten, Whitehall-Robins Healthcare, the United Soybean Board and the following State Soybean Associations: Illinois Soybean Board, Indiana Soybean Board, Kentucky Soybean Promotion Board, Michigan Soybean Promotion Committee, Minnesota Soybean Research and Promotion Council, Nebraska Soybean Board, Ohio Soybean Council, South Dakota Soybean Research and Promotion Council. Publication of symposium proceedings was supported by educational grants from the United Soybean Board and the Soyfoods Association of North America. Guest Editor for this symposium was Mark Messina, Nutrition Matters, Inc., Port Townsend, WA. Back
REFERENCES
1. Albertazzi P., Pansini F., Bonaccorsi G., Zanotti L., Forini E., De Aloysio D. The effect of dietary soy supplementation on hot flushes. Obstet. Gynecol. 1998;91:6-11[Abstract]
2. Baird D. D., Umbach D. M., Lansdell L., Hughes C. L., Setchell K.D.R., Weinberg C. R., Haney A. F., Wilcox A. J., McLachlan J. A. Dietary intervention study to assess estrogenicity of dietary soy among postmenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1995;80:1685-1690[Abstract/Free Full Text]
3. Brzezinski A., Adlercreutz H., Shaoul R., Rösler A., Shmueli A., Tanos V., Schenker J. G. Short-term effects of phytoestrogen-rich diet on postmenopausal women. Menopause 1997;4:89-94
4. Cassidy A., Bingham S., Setchell K.D.R. Biological effects of a diet of soy protein rich in isoflavones on the menstrual cycle of premenopausal women. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1994;60:333-340[Abstract/Free Full Text]
5. Cassidy A., Bingham S., Setchell K. Biological effects of isoflavones in young women: importance of the chemical composition of soyabean products. Br. J. Nutr. 1995;74:587-601[Medline]
6. Duncan A. M., Merz B. E., Xu X., Nagel T. C., Phipps W. R., Kurzer M. S. Soy isoflavones exert modest effects in premenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1999a;84:192-197[Abstract/Free Full Text]
7. Duncan A. M., Underhill K. E. W., Xu X., Lavalleur J., Phipps W. R., Kurzer M. S. Modest hormonal effects of soy isoflavones in postmenopausal women. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 1999b;84:3479-3484[Abstract/Free Full Text]
8. Lu L.-J.W., Anderson K. E., Grady J. J., Nagamani M. Effects of soya consumption for one month on steroid hormones in premenopausal women: implications for breast cancer risk reduction. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1996;5:63-70[Abstract]
9. Murkies A. L., Lombard C., Strauss B.J.G., Wilcox G., Burger H. G., Morton M. S. Dietary flour supplementation decreases post-menopausal hot flushes: effect of soy and wheat. Maturitas 1995;21:189-195[Medline]
10. Nagata C., Takatsuka N., Inaba S., Kawakami N., Shimizu H. Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen concentrations in premenopausal Japanese women. J. Natl. Cancer Inst. 1998;90:1830-1835[Abstract/Free Full Text]
11. Petrakis N. L., Barnes S., King E. B., Lowenstein J., Wiencke J., Lee M. M., Miike R., Kirk M., Coward L. Stimulatory influence of soy protein isolate on breast secretion in pre- and postmenopausal women. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1996;5:785-794[Abstract]
12. Washburn S., Burke G. L., Morgan T., Anthony M. Effect of soy protein supplementation on serum lipoproteins, blood pressure, and menopausal symptoms in perimenopausal women. Menopause 1999;6:7-13[Medline]
13. Wilcox G., Wahlqvist M. L., Burger H. G., Medley G. Oestrogenic effects of plant foods in postmenopausal women. Br. Med. J. 1990;301:905-906
14. Xu X., Duncan A. M., Merz B. E., Kurzer M. S. Effects of soy isoflavones on estrogen and phytoestrogen metabolism in premenopausal women. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev. 1998;7:1101-1108[Abstract]
How much does ezekiel bread cost you guys in the US/Canada etc? I've never seen it in the UK, only healthy food stores sell small 'blocks' of rye bread and thats quite costly.
Is there anything I can use instead? is Wholemeal/Granary ok or is nearly as bad as white bread? Thought white bread is ok post workout isnt it? as its a fast digesting carb.
This reeks estrogen dominance right there. Why would anyone want to fuck with that. So many women have too low progesterone already! When you have decreased progesterone you have increase higher estrogen. Low progesterone can cause PCOS, amenorrhea, dysmenorrhea, fertility issues........the list goes on.
Low progesterone is not something any women should deal with. Here are a studies on premenopausal women and all them show these effects.
It can also lower T3 levels as well, as shown in the studies.
Hormonal Effects of Soy in Premenopausal Women and Men -- Kurzer 132 (3): 570S -- Journal of Nutrition
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/84/11/4017.pdf
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/84/1/192.pdf
The first study which used 32g - 100g.
They all showed some decreased of progesterone and or T3.
Also the study said 60g but only provided 45g of soy isoflavones. Just because it says 60G doesn't mean it's 60G of soy isoflavones.
They all showed some decreased of progesterone and or T3.
Also the study said 60g but only provided 45g of soy isoflavones. Just because it says 60G doesn't mean it's 60G of soy isoflavones.
yea, that is a literature review...again, it is hard to take information from it becasue it is comparing a bunch of shit that is simliar but not the same. Also, because it is a review, it doesn't have an inclusion criteria for which studies they are looking at.
are the effects because of the soy? or because of the isoflavones?
there are still a lot of questions to be asked.
I don't think that soy is all that great. I think there is better shit to eat.
From the colclusion section of that research review:
are the effects because of the soy? or because of the isoflavones?
there are still a lot of questions to be asked.
I don't think that soy is all that great. I think there is better shit to eat.
From the colclusion section of that research review:
From what my ND told me, is that it's the isoflavones. Some of this is anecdotal evidence but, to me, still shows enough negative to stay away from it.
I don't care what the studies show for amounts. If something has ill effects it shouldn't be used at all. To me, that's like saying 1 cigarette a day is fine.
That makes no sense at all.
That is how statistical significance works.....everything we do has impact on our overall health. We take the good with the bad. If eating steak is good, but 1 out of 50 people that eat it die, then the statistical significance is small. People will eat steak and that is the risk they take (unless their name is mercola). If while eating steak 45/50 people die, then the statisical significance is greater....chances are most people wont be eating much steak.
Driking alcohol causes changes to the body....yet people do it.....in moderation...that is the key. just like anything, to much of one thing is never good.
No study has ever been developed showing that vitamins are abosibultly necessary to our diet. In fact, researchers would tell you that a healthy/well-balance diet does not need to be supplemented with vitamins as the individual would be getting their needed amounts of nutrients. But, we know there are benefits of taking certain vitamins. Statistical evidence shows that. So we take our vitamins.
Yeah I know what you mean, but after all the shit I've had to deal with and the estrogen dominance etc...to me, it's that bad. The last thing anyone needs with pre-existing estrogen dominance is to make it worse
Some people it can have pronoun effects and other it will cause no problems at all. Everyone is different but those at risk, shouldn't chance it.
Some people it can have pronoun effects and other it will cause no problems at all. Everyone is different but those at risk, shouldn't chance it.
that's fine.
you can formulate opinions on conjecture. people do it all the time. look at the diet books that are written each year. Some of them grossly over-simplify the human diet and the author reports on what they believe to be true.
I agree with your ND. I don't feel that soy is a great overall protein. I think there are some negative impacts and the research shows that (although it is in higher doses than I would consume daily....so, it may apply more to those that eat soy as their only protein or those that eat high amounts of soy).
Still though, as the research says, more research is needed, to really formulate evidenced based prescriptions of soy protein.
Until then, I agree with your ND.....even if it is my own conjecture.
Yeah I know what you mean, but after all the shit I've had to deal with and the estrogen dominance etc...to me, it's that bad. The last thing anyone needs with pre-existing estrogen dominance is to make it worse
I understand what you are saying.
But not everyone will have the same hormonal problems as you. Not everyone will have the same metabolism as you. You have to take things in stride, as they come, when working with people.
I can't take all my clients and have them back squat because I back squat....it would be insanity.
I can't have some of my clients eat a diet that is similiar to mine (higher in carbs) because they don't metabolism CHO as well as I do and they don't have the same metabolism as me.
One of the hardest things to do is seperate yourself from those you are working with....does that make sense?
agree 100%
Yeah, I agree, no doubt more research is needed. Look how many products and medications out there that they claimed safe and then overtime the negative effects showed face. Kinda scary with how much trust we put into the people making these statements. 
Yup, makes complete sense. It's your responsibility as a professional to be subjective and open to all things. My career is not in this field so most research I do is mainly for myself. Most of my advice is based off that research as well as my own personal experiences. As I said in the beginning of all of this to dontstop - it may cause problems as she ages.
Yeah, I agree, no doubt more research is needed. Look how many products and medications out there that they claimed safe and then overtime the negative effects showed face. Kinda scary with how much trust we put into the people making these statements.
sometimes it is hard for them to predict what is going to happen.
also, changes in metabolism overtime as well as environmental changes, make things very hard to predict.
anyway.....
the reason i took such a long road to getting to the point that I agree was to just show everyone how critical you have to be when you read research and develop evidenced based practice (be it in training, nutrition, physical therapy). Sometimes, we browse an abstract and we take it as truth....again, none of this is truth. It proves nothing. It suggest statistical evidence. Much like the products claimed to be safe (at first they were shown to be helpful) and then after time are shown to be dangerous.....much like eggs would give you a heart attack if you ate more than 2 a week, like they did back in the 70's and 80's...only to find out how healthy they are for you.
If you are going to read research and analyze the statistics, you have to be critical of what you are reading. Don't jsut go fishing for things that support your beliefs and don't take what you read to be an absolute....it isn't. It just means at that time, this is what was found.
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yessir. sorry sir. It wont happen again.
seriously! I realize some of my comments at time are a bit, errr sophomoric.
Agreed. It has been mentioned that some "bad things" are okay in moderation, however, even though I agree (because life should be enjoyed), these things may (and likely) have negative affects on the body which we do not immediately realize. This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend who is aspiring to become a professional kickboxer. He used to smoke weed on and off, but quit once he noticed the affects of it on his body after reaching the level of training/athleticism that he has. I don't think you can ever be too nitpicky on this forum. It is a health/bodybuilding forum after all; I thought that was the point. Some great information posted so far. I have been wanting to learn more about the soy protein debate.
Milk consumption in childhood is associated with the greatest peak adult bone density, but milk consumption in adulthood is associated with increased prevalence of fractures, and with accelerated bone demineralization.
Dynamic Chiropractic Jan 1 said:
I like rice milk. There are many more choices.
Delicious Organics: Hemp Bliss, Hemp Milk, Vanilla, 32 oz, MANITOBA HARVEST
Delicious Organics: Hemp Bliss, Hemp Milk, Vanilla, 32 oz, MANITOBA HARVEST
I used to sit and eat a half box of fruity pebbles every morning. Now, I did a 180; i always eat OF oats and fiber one, with egg whites and/or 30g of whey.I can easily do 3 medium/large bowls not even being hungry.
I was a cereal fanatic, to the point where my mother would buy abnormally large bowls just for me to use.
It wouldn't be outrageous for me to eat an entire box of Trix or Cinnamon Toast Crunch in a sitting. Of course I was using Skim Milk, so my dumbass mind thought I was eating something really healthy.
It wouldn't be outrageous for me to eat an entire box of Trix or Cinnamon Toast Crunch in a sitting. Of course I was using Skim Milk, so my dumbass mind thought I was eating something really healthy.
same here.
