is working each muscle 2x a week overtraining?

[Squaggleboggin]

So in other words it's insufficient work alone for the shoulder. Would the addition of good, old fashioned bench pressing make a difference for shoulder work, or would it still be insufficient altogether? I just figured that with pull ups, chin ups and jerks I would work them enough not to cause an imbalance.

 

[P-funk]

Maybe some overhead DB press. Something to balance out the pressing. incline presses. Also, the extra pressing (if put in properly) will help to increase shoulder and tricep strength which will lead to a more effecient jerk as you can lock out harder and stronger and stabalize better.

 

[Squaggleboggin]

Alright, I'll add in some overhead standing DB presses in place of my second C&J (I'm only going to work the clean and the jerk separately but immediately after one another for now. I know I can go right from the clean to the jerk without a problem and there's no point in limiting my clean to the jerk's weight.) session in my routine. Thanks for the input.

 

[P-funk]

why seperate them? I would defenitly keep them together! Jerking off the rack adn jerking after a clean are not the same. The bar placement and setup is different coming out of the rack and may not prepare you for how you end your cleans. Keep it specific.

What is your routine?

 

[Squaggleboggin]

My progress is in my journal, but here's what the plan was for this microcycle:

Day One: Cleans 3x3 (135), 3x2 (215); Jerks 3x3 (95), 3x2 (160); Farmers Walks 3x2 (140); Chin Ups 2x2; Stretches
Day Two: Off
Day Three: Deadlifts (double overhand grip) 3x3 (185), 3x2 (360); Pull Ups 6x2; Stretches
Day Four: Off
Day Five: C&Js 3x3 (95), 3x2 (160); Farmers Walks 3x1 (210); Chin Ups 2x2; Stretches
Day Six: Off
Day Seven: Front squats w/3s stop at bottom 3x3 (135), 3x2 (225); SLDLs (double overhand grip) 3x3 (185), 3x2 (320); Pull Ups 6x2; Stretches
Day Eight: Off

As you can see, my cleans are quite a bit higher in weight than my jerks. I didn't think it would be a good idea to do them together because that would limit the weight I can use on the clean portion.

I was thinking of changing the C&Js to overhead DB presses and adding in random sandbag and water jug work biweekly for good, functional stuff. I suppose I could even not do the deadlifts if necessary and just do the C&Js, but I don't want to do that quite yet if I do it.

 

[P-funk]

okay, now I see what you mean. Let me try and help you out with this. I will put some stuff in bold inside the program. Some ideas. I didn't realize your jerk is that far off of your maximum clean. Is your technique off?

anyway, one thing you are lacking is some sort of horizontal rowing and maybe even a little horizontal pushing (CG bench press? Possibly even some incline presses, DB or BB, instead of overhead press just to get you a little bit into the horizontal plane, even though I usually consider it a vertical movement because of the angle.

My progress is in my journal, but here's what the plan was for this microcycle:

I know. I read your journal. I just wanted to see the skeleton of the split.

Day One: Cleans 3x3 (135), 3x2 (215); Jerks 3x3 (95), 3x2 (160); Farmers Walks 3x2 (140); Chin Ups 2x2; Stretches

This day looks okay.

Day Two: Off
Day Three: Deadlifts (double overhand grip) 3x3 (185), 3x2 (360); Pull Ups 6x2; Stretches

On this day drop the pull ups in favor of Bent over BB rows, DB rows or something like that. Add a horizontal push, either CG bench press or neutral grip sagital plane DB presses to this day also. For both the rows and the presses keep the reps and sets the same so that they are balanced. I would also drop the deadlifts and move them to another day and put some back squatting in here. Not max effort since you are really hitting the deadlifts hard from what I can see in your journal. Possibly something like a 5x5 or 5x3reps with 80% of 1RM working on power and speed out of the hole.


Day Four: Off

Day Five: C&Js 3x3 (95), 3x2 (160); Farmers Walks 3x1 (210); Chin Ups 2x2; Stretches

I like the Clean and jerks here. I would ditch the farmers walks and put my deadlifts in on this day. Since you are doing overhand grip deadlifts, I would warm up with clean pulls and pyramid up until I hit deadlift weight (over maybe 3-5 sets) and then pull 2-3 sets of deadilfts for triples. Don't max out every time. Work on getting a quick pull. Possibly work up to 3x3 and then every 3rd week try and work up to a max triple or double. Change the chin ups to pullups.

Day Six: Off

Day Seven: Front squats w/3s stop at bottom 3x3 (135), 3x2 (225); SLDLs (double overhand grip) 3x3 (185), 3x2 (320); Pull Ups 6x2; Stretches

I like the idea of a 4th day of training here as it allows you to get in another squat workout. Do the front squats without the 3s pause. Your jerks are probably not as good because you are slow out of the hole. That doesn't mean you aren't strong! But, it means that you lack power (2 different things ....strenght=work.......power=work in the shortest amount of time). If you start working on getting a good concentric and pop out of the hole and really using that stretch shortening cycle. that will help your jerk out big time. Work with doubles and triples. Also, drop the pull ups again. I would hit up something like DB rows (either one arm or both arms together) and an incline press. Again, reps and sets the same. Now on day 3 and 7 you have horizontal work and on day 1 and 3 you have overhead stuff (jerks and pull ups.


Day Eight: Off

As you can see, my cleans are quite a bit higher in weight than my jerks. I didn't think it would be a good idea to do them together because that would limit the weight I can use on the clean portion.

I was thinking of changing the C&Js to overhead DB presses and adding in random sandbag and water jug work biweekly for good, functional stuff. I suppose I could even not do the deadlifts if necessary and just do the C&Js, but I don't want to do that quite yet if I do it.

So my template would look like this:

day1
Cleans
Jerks off the rack
farmers walks
chin ups

day2
back squat
CG bench press
Bent over row


day3
clean and jerk
clean pulls
deadlift
pull ups

day4
front squat
SLDL
incline press
DB row


Hope that helps.

 

[Squaggleboggin]

okay, now I see what you mean. Let me try and help you out with this. I will put some stuff in bold inside the program. Some ideas. I didn't realize your jerk is that far off of your maximum clean. Is your technique off?

anyway, one thing you are lacking is some sort of horizontal rowing and maybe even a little horizontal pushing (CG bench press? Possibly even some incline presses, DB or BB, instead of overhead press just to get you a little bit into the horizontal plane, even though I usually consider it a vertical movement because of the angle.




So my template would look like this:

day1
Cleans
Jerks off the rack
farmers walks
chin ups

day2
back squat
CG bench press
Bent over row


day3
clean and jerk
clean pulls
deadlift
pull ups

day4
front squat
SLDL
incline press
DB row


Hope that helps.

Well I made a lot more mistakes than I planned on, haha.

It could very well be my technique holding back my jerks. Combine that possibility (actually it's a likelihood) with the fact that my shoulders are fairly weak from taking time off them due to an injury a while ago, and my jerks are a lot lower than my cleans.

I'm just curious - why CG bench and not regular (as in PL style for shoulder safety), and how close do you consider CG? And is it okay to start this movement from the bottom to make it more difficult? I like doing that... Also, should I be working my way up to higher weights and lower volumes as with most of my other lifts in the CG bench and rows?

Clean pulls may be a problem only because I don't have bumper plates or a platform. If I'm correct in what I think this exercise is, you essentially clean the bar but let it drop instead of catching it. I also have tried to decelerate the weight. I learned the hard way it's a bad idea even with light weight.

Let's see if I can draw up the appropriate intensities and reps.

Day One:
Cleans 3x3 (135), 3x2 (220)
Jerks 3x3 (95), 3x2 (165)
Farmers Walks 3x1 (210)
Chin Ups 2x2

Day Two:
ATG Back Squats 2x6 (135), 5x3 (225) - weight will be adjusted to proper level while still concentrating on explosiveness once I'm used to the exercise again
CG Bottom Benches 2x6 (95), 5x3 (155) - weight adjusted again; reps adjusted for strength after I break in exercise
BB Rows 2x6 (95), 5x3 (155) - adjustments made as necessary again

Day Three:
C&Js 3x3 (95), 3x2 (165)
Deadlifts 1x3 (135), 1x3 (225), 3x3 (315) - concentrate on speed and pace the high intensity lifting
Pull Ups 6x2

Day Four:
Front Squats 2x6 (95), 5x3 (195) - concentrate on speed and using the stretch shortening cycle
SLDLs 3x3 (185), 3x2 (320)
Incline Bottom Benches 2x6 (95), 5x3 (155) - adjustments made as necessary again
DB Rows 2x6 (40), 5x3 (80)

I don't think I messed up too badly on anything with the sets/reps and intensities. I've been reading Dinosaur Training lately, however, so that's why I want to start movements from the bottom so often.

Are there any other exercises that need to be explosive besides posterior chain movements (except SLDLs I'm assuming)? I'd like to go heavy on most things, and it seems like I'll be able to for the most part, so I'm happy.

Thanks for taking the time to come up with all this. I really appreciate it, P.

 

[P-funk]

Looks good.

For the clean pulls....You don't have to drop the weight. You don't even have to pull it uber fast. Some people do it different ways. I do my clean pulls more under control and slower then my actual clean. I just make sure I hit all my positions (shoulders over the bar) and get a solid shrug and I sometimes don't even bother going up onto my toes (since that isn't were I have my problem). It is more just to drive the form home.

 

[Squaggleboggin]

I see. I'll probably give those a try then. Thanks again, P.

 

[P-funk]

I see. I'll probably give those a try then. Thanks again, P.

just be mindful of training intensity over the course of the week because if you push it on every day you might burn out pretty quick. I may do something like:

day1- strength
day2- power
day3- strength
day4- power

 

[Squaggleboggin]

I actually did set it up that way with the 5x3 scheme, which I plan on keeping. Perhaps I could even switch each week. Power, strength, power, strength; strength, power, strength, power. That way each movement will be trained in both areas of development.