looooong post, please help friend in danger of starving himself

[DanSterone]

kay so my friend has a question for you guys.

he is 19 years old and he has been lifting for about a year.. and made all right gains..

he, like myself wants to get rid of some stubborn fat areas on his mid section. he is about 21% bodyfat.

he has never followed a real diet, and when we added up his usual food intake, it was around 2100 calories! which would explain is somewhat less then impressive gains in the past year.

okay so he should be eatin about 3600 calories a day, but then he wants to get a lower bf, so he wants to eat like 3100. but then with the gel you have to lower it again by about 500 calories or so.

he was just gonna cut his normal intake of 2100 by 500 for a few weeks, try and lose that fat around his mid section, and then raise it higher and get on a good diet to build muscle.. which i thought was a really bad idea cuz puttin your calries below 2000 would be bad.. so i wanna give him some other ideas but he is bent on using the gel.

i thought maybe if he took 3100 (what he should use to burn fat) - 500 it would put him around 2600 and that would be good for when he is using the gel.

will this work, cuz i dont wanna see him starving himself.

he wants to use the gel to burn the fat around his mid section (abs, love handles..) but after he loses the handles he believes he will be content with his physice. i told him to try and lose it with a good diet, but he said that all he wants to lose was the love handles, anywhere else would make him too skinny, he thinks.

the reason im askin this is because the gel says you have to lower your calories to make it work, but since he allready doesnt eat enough, will the gel still work for him if he is actually raising his calories.. or does he really have to take it below 2000 since thats the only way to actually lower his calorie intake.

he isnt lookin for a quick fix, but he is 210 lbs, 6' 2'' and by the time he actually gets his love handles gone, he thinks he will have lost so much weight everywhere else he will look like a skinny little twig! so he wants to spot train his love handles/abs/ass.. he is weird its like the only place he really has that much fat...

sorry about the lenghty post, i just needed to make sure that it was explained correctly.

 

[QuestionGuy]

lol, yeah tell your "friend" (wink-wonk) to work on his diet. LOL. You know what, let him learn, most of us in here learned the hard way so he will too.....if he wont liesten then oh well....DIET IS KEY.

 

[Rocco32]

Well what gel are you talking about?

 

[Twigz]

Maybe its just me, but I don't get this....

1. You are saying that he should increase his calories to lose weight? I always thought that you had to have a calorie deficiency to lose weight (or burn more that you intake)?

2. This magical "gel" sounds like horse shit to me. He can rub this gel where ever he want, but it will do nothing for him, the calorie cut is what will make the fat go away.

3. You friend thinks that he can spot reduce his weight, but you can not. This is impossible you either gain or lose weight in all areas, not just one.

4. Your friend and you should sign up for a nutrition and fitness class, or get some books to read about nutrition and weight managment. Also try using the search feature on this site, you should be able to find lots of infromation on how to manage weight.

I hope that didn't come of as mean, It was not ment to be.
Good luke to you and your friend.

 

[Rocco32]

Maybe its just me, but I don't get this....

1. You are saying that he should increase his calories to lose weight? I always thought that you had to have a calorie deficiency to lose weight (or burn more that you intake)?

2. This magical "gel" sounds like horse shit to me. He can rub this gel where ever he want, but it will do nothing for him, the calorie cut is what will make the fat go away.

3. You friend thinks that he can spot reduce his weight, but you can not. This is impossible you either gain or lose weight in all areas, not just one.

4. Your friend and you should sign up for a nutrition and fitness class, or get some books to read about nutrition and weight managment. Also try using the search feature on this site, you should be able to find lots of infromation on how to manage weight.

I hope that didn't come of as mean, It was not ment to be.
Good luke to you and your friend.

Your mostly right here in what your saying. But if the cals are too low he will not lose fat, he'll be losing muscle so he needs to actually up his cals a bit. And while you cannot spot reduce fat, you can to a point with Avants Ab-solved and Lipoderm. That's why I asked what gel they are using. Everything else is crap.

 

[Twigz]

Well, I stand corrected, I did not know that a gel, or any product for that matter was capable of doing this (even in a limited capacity).

I would think that he would need to probably clean his diet up, maybe not increase the calories, but on the other hand we have no idea what or how he eats, so you could be right to.

 

[Rocco32]

If he wants a solid cut, his cals should be about 2500 clean. No less than that and maybe a bit more depending on how active he is. I agree with you 100 % on cleaning up the diet!!!

 

[CowPimp]

Your mostly right here in what your saying. But if the cals are too low he will not lose fat, he'll be losing muscle so he needs to actually up his cals a bit.

This isn't true. Your body almost never purely burns muscle or fat. However, fat will usually be the first choice. Your body is very comfortable using fat stores for energy, and it does so often throughout the day.

The problem with calories being too low is that one's metabolism goes to Hell. As well, at a certain point your body will not have sufficient energy for maintenance operations like thinking, a heartbeat, proper thyroid function, etc. If he lowers calories more and more, he will continue to lose fat. However, if he ever starts eating closer to a normal amount of food again, he will yo-yo back to his previous weight, or beyond.

Beyond this, calories are not the only thing to consider when looking to lose body fat. The types of foods he eats are very important. An excessive amount of refined sugars and high GI carbohydrates can lower one's insulin sensitivity and cause excess fat storage. Eating infrequently throughout the day causes the body to go into starvation mode and store fat for potential famine. Insufficient water intake can lead to a high amount of water retention. The list goes on. Outline this fellow's diet for us.

 

[Rocco32]

Eating infrequently throughout the day causes the body to go into starvation mode and store fat for potential famine.

I think we pretty much agree on this, I'm just giving the fast simple version. But the quote above also holds true to not having enough cals during the day. His maintenance Cals are just above 3000 provided he's eating the right foods. At under 2,000 cals a day the body will still go into starvation mode, preserving the fat and eating the muscle, especially if he is exercising on top of this.

 

[CowPimp]

At under 2,000 cals a day the body will still go into starvation mode, preserving the fat and eating the muscle, especially if he is exercising on top of this.

Actually, resistance training makes retaining muscle far more likely. Your body isn't going to give up the muscle so easily if it gets used all the time and it is obviously needed. Lifting while you are cutting is essential to retaining LBM.

 

[Rocco32]

I'm not saying not to lift Cowpimp. I'm saying he needs to up the cals more while lifting. If the body is in starvation mode from lack of calories, then lifting or not it will choose muscle over fat to burn. Your body needs the fat to survive, not necessarily the muscle.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

then lifting or not it will choose muscle over fat to burn.

I disagree with this personally...intense training places a specific reason to maintain the muscle (and neurological efficiency) of current muscle. If one "cuts" logically and not severely, an intense workout maintaining or improving one's strength places a demand on the body to keep the muscle it has (SAID). I believe that, unless under extreme circumstances, the body will be forced to use fat..

 

[Rocco32]

I disagree with this personally...intense training places a specific reason to maintain the muscle (and neurological efficiency) of current muscle. If one "cuts" logically and not severely, an intense workout maintaining or improving one's strength places a demand on the body to keep the muscle it has (SAID). I believe that, unless under extreme circumstances, the body will be forced to use fat..

Again I agree with that statement. But this person wants to cut cals below 2,000 which IMO is SEVERE, so training at that cal level will be detrimental. The body will be forced to burn muscle NOT fat because of the demand.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

I absolutely agree.

He needs to do an average of his calories over a week (aggregate divided by seven) to discover his maintenance, and trim that number daily by 300-500 calories. This deficit will be enough to trim down. Every week add 25 or so calories to the deficit..

 

[Rocco32]

I absolutely agree.

He needs to do an average of his calories over a week (aggregate divided by seven) to discover his maintenance, and trim that number daily by 300-500 calories. This deficit will be enough to trim down. Every week add 25 or so calories to the deficit..

Awwww, yes. We agree, LOL. For a minute I was afraid I'd become Johnnny LOL

 

[Duncans Donuts]

Not a chance in hell brother...just a semantic disagreement. We all seem to be on the same page

 

[Rocco32]

Not a chance in hell brother...just a semantic disagreement. We all seem to be on the same page

I was about to start citing all the BB's and wrestlers at my gym who swear by this and that working out on only maintenance cals gave me hyperthyroidism....

 

[Tha Don]

he has never followed a real diet, and when we added up his usual food intake, it was around 2100 calories! which would explain is somewhat less then impressive gains in the past year.

okay so he should be eatin about 3600 calories a day, but then he wants to get a lower bf, so he wants to eat like 3100. but then with the gel you have to lower it again by about 500 calories or so.

if your buddy is around 21% bodyfat i find it hard to believe that he is already eating 1000 cals below maintenance! if hes training hard and eating below maintenance cals (thus burning more than he is eating) he will lose weight, there is no question about that!

i thought maybe if he took 3100 (what he should use to burn fat) - 500 it would put him around 2600 and that would be good for when he is using the gel.

no he won't, if he eats more hes gonna put fat on, not lose fat

he wants to use the gel to burn the fat / the reason im askin this is because the gel / will the gel

forget the GEL! beginners to cutting shouldn't be using products like this, they are overhyped, they will not make you lose any fat! that must come through diet, they 'might assist' fat loss in certain areas but that is a big 'might', they didn't do much for me!

i've dropped my cals down to around 2000 and have had great results losing fat and retaining muscle, if your buddy want to lose fat then if he drops his cals by upto 500 (mainly carbs) and ups the cardio he'll start dropping BF, if his protein content stays high and he keeps lifting heavy i see no reason why he would lose muscle

by going just below 2000 cals he ain't starvin himself, 20 cals might be but eating this way for a couple of months is the only way your buddy is gonna shift any fat

peace

 

[DanSterone]

why is it hard to believe he eats 1000 calories below his maintinance?

his maintinance is around 3100, he eats 2100.. there ya go thats 1000 less. (3100 - 2100 = 1000)

he wanted to know why i was growing and he wasnt and i told him that i ate ALOT more then him, and better foods.

he checked into my eating habbits, and wanted to start eating better after that, but he didnt want to get really fat

his bf is 21%, which seems pretty high but he really hasnt got that much fat besides his abdominal area, love handles, and his ass (from what he told me i havent seen his ass)

he is afraid that if he trys to burn the fat with a diet he will become too skinny. thats all there is to it.

i just wanted to know if it was okay to take his calories below 2000, which is fine with him i guess.

he never eats much because he has always thought he could eat a balance of foods that made him gain muslce and burn fat at once.

i guess i didnt know that takin it below 2000 is okay, ill tell him that he can but to drop manily carbs. thanks young d.

and thanks you everyone else

 

[Duncans Donuts]

How do you know that's his maintenance..

 

[DanSterone]

we did the math

 

[Vieope]

Good luke to you and your friend.

There is no such thing as a good Luke. They are all stupid.

 

[Twigz]

ahh yes Luke should be luck. Don't want to wish them a good pretty boy, that doesn't make sence

 

[KarlW]

As well, at a certain point your body will not have sufficient energy for maintenance operations like thinking, a heartbeat, proper thyroid function, etc.

Would this only be once the body has used all available fat stores and broken down muscle tissue for it's energy?

If the body is in starvation mode from lack of calories, then lifting or not it will choose muscle over fat to burn

So are you saying the body decides that at some point it will not let any more fat be used for energy requirements and decides instead to start breaking down muscle tissue?

 

[CowPimp]

Not a chance in hell brother...just a semantic disagreement. We all seem to be on the same page

Very true. I find myself getting into semantics too often sometimes.

 

[CowPimp]

Would this only be once the body has used all available fat stores and broken down muscle tissue for it's energy?

No, because you are dead at this point.

Obivously, all hormonal secretions - for example - will not suddenly stop if you are eating an insufficient number of calories. However, the output of various glands will decrease as a result. Throwing your body into a hormonal imbalance can cause all kinds of issues. This isn't too much of an issue if your only other choice is starving to death, but you shouldn't make this a chronic eating habit.

 

[BigDyl]

There is no such thing as a good Luke. They are all stupid.

I think someones jealous..