My sad deadlift diatribe

[motionman04]

Is the romanian deadlift considered just as bad? Or not, because it focuses on hamstrings?

 

[Brutus_G]

What about leg raises? My abs always feel burned after them. Also I've read the training stickies on training (cowpimp p funk)routines and I've read iron man's ideas they are very similar and both agree on most things split wise.

 

[P-funk]

Is the romanian deadlift considered just as bad? Or not, because it focuses on hamstrings?

just as bad as what? a deadlift?



RDL's are a great exercise
deadlifts are a great exercise

 

[CowPimp]

The stronger your lower back muscles are, the better. The deadlift is the best lower back strengther there is in my opinion. Also, there needs to be a balance between hip dominant and quad dominant exercise to keep the lower back healthy. Deadlifts are also the only pulling exercise that can balance out all of the heavy upper body pressing that we all do (most have an anterior/posterior imbalance). Rowing exercises are often not enough to counteract this.

Right, I agree with you in a large way. Scapular retraction is a function that is not strong enough in most people, and their posture and spinal alignment suck throughout the day and when lifting objects (Not even just traditional weight lifting). Rack pulls are great for this too, although I think pulling off the floor is awesome to tear up your hips to a larger degree as well.

So aren't you saying that it makes you MORE resistant to injury? I'm confused.

 

[IRON MAN]

Well, deadlifts will mostly build the erector spinae muscle group. However, huge traps are also borne of deadlifts...and it is my belief that they truly build thickness from the top to bottom of the back. You can always tell a "deadlifter's" back, as it has a thickness and density that is easy to spot...Ronnie Coleman, Johnny Jackson, Franco Columbo, etc.

Strong abdominals certainly help stabilize the spine, but I am not a fan of the sit up, as this works the hip flexors too hard, which can cause an imbalance that can actually help to injure the lower back.

We have trained with Ronnie Coleman on two different occasions and I don't think you could hurt his back with a sledge hammer.lol..These guys you mentioned are the exception rather than the rule. And Pros who take massive amounts of chemical enhancing agents have much stronger backs than the norm not to mention the extra cushioining effect the drugs provide. Thus allowing them to get by with exercises and heavy workloads a natural athlete could not with stand.


I agree about the LOWER BACK n TRAPS recieving much of the work with deads. But I believe SHRUGS and BACK EXTENSIONS are superior exercises for those areas.

In regards to the sit-up I see them as a great ab exercise but as you stated they work the hip flexors too hard and the PSoas muscle forces the vertebrae into hyper-extension. I compare SIT-UPS to DEADLIFTS. Both are effective at building the stabilizing muscles but for some the added demand placed upon the spine does more harm than good.

Heres part of an article by Fredrick Hatfield I agree with. He believes as I and my 2 othopedic friends. And that would be "back extensions are superior to deadlifts for building up the spinal erectors".

HATFIELD



By far the biggest muscles of your lower back are the "erector" muscles. They're also the most visible. Your erector spinae muscles are designed to extend (and hyperextend) your spine. They do NOT act on your hip joint, so there's no reason to engage in exercises which require hip joint movement.

The best way to target your erectors is with "back extensions." This exercise requires the use of a specialized bench quite unlike the ones you're probably used to seeing around the gyms. To use this device to target your erectors, your feet are secured by the two foot pads which are backed by a metal plate that prevents your feet from slipping through. Your "belly button" is placed in the middle of the padded support. Your knees are bent. Then, your feet push against the metal plate in order to "lock" your upper legs against the padded bench. All of this ensures that only your erector muscles are targeted, and NOT your hip extensors (gluteals). Simply assume the described position and flex your spine (round your back downward). Hold as much weight behind your head as you can, and extend your spine (straighten it back out again). You should not raise way up by arching (hyperextending) your back, as doing so places too much strain on the intervertebral discs of your lumbar spine. Repeat for the desired number of reps.

This exercise is quite probably the ONLY low back exercise you will ever have to do. It is that effective.

Noted exceptions are deadlifts, squats, glute-ham raises and explosive high pulls, all of which involve the lower back muscles as either stabilizers or synergists. However, none is done for the express purpose of developing your lower back, and are probably unsuitable for most trainees outside clinical and sports-specific applications.

 

[gopro]

Right, I agree with you in a large way. Scapular retraction is a function that is not strong enough in most people, and their posture and spinal alignment suck throughout the day and when lifting objects (Not even just traditional weight lifting). Rack pulls are great for this too, although I think pulling off the floor is awesome to tear up your hips to a larger degree as well.

So aren't you saying that it makes you MORE resistant to injury? I'm confused.

Haha...apparently so am I!! LOL!! I apologize!! I MEANT that deadlifts make your back MORE (not less) resistant to injury!

It's funny because I was wondering why you might disagree with me, and now I went back and saw what I typed (now edited of course).

 

[rangers97]

The stronger your lower back muscles are, the better. The deadlift is the best lower back strengther there is in my opinion. Also, there needs to be a balance between hip dominant and quad dominant exercise to keep the lower back healthy. Deadlifts are also the only pulling exercise that can balance out all of the heavy upper body pressing that we all do (most have an anterior/posterior imbalance). Rowing exercises are often not enough to counteract this.

How exactly does a deadlift work to counteract a bench press? If you think in terms of antagonistic exercises for push vs pull, you have bench press-rows, shoulder press-pullups, dips-upright rows, where does the deadlift fit into this?

I still don't see how it affects upper back mass as much as some of you are stating. I mean, I am coming off doing a powerlifting routine, and all I can tell is that my erectors are fricken huge right now, but I feel I get nothing out of the deadlift in my upper back, all I feel after a day of deads is my lower back. (OK, so now someone is gonna say I have bad form, thats why, lol )

 

[P-funk]

How exactly does a deadlift work to counteract a bench press? If you think in terms of antagonistic exercises for push vs pull, you have bench press-rows, shoulder press-pullups, dips-upright rows, where does the deadlift fit into this?

I still don't see how it affects upper back mass as much as some of you are stating. I mean, I am coming off doing a powerlifting routine, and all I can tell is that my erectors are fricken huge right now, but I feel I get nothing out of the deadlift in my upper back, all I feel after a day of deads is my lower back. (OK, so now someone is gonna say I have bad form, thats why, lol )

If you have ever held a decenlt yheavy weight in your hands and moved through the full ROM of a deadlift or even an RDL for that matter you would know that the amount of force created by the upper back in the lift is crucial. If you don't have strong rear delts, rhomboids, and trapezius muscles you are going to either (a) miss the lift, (b) round your back like crazy or (c) rip your arms out of their sockets. The deadlift places a great amount of pressure on the upper back.....the day after I deadlift my upper back is really sore!

Anyway, I agree with gopro 100%.....the deadlift is a crucial exercise in a training program.

 

[rangers97]

If you have ever held a decenlt yheavy weight in your hands and moved through the full ROM of a deadlift or even an RDL for that matter you would know that the amount of force created by the upper back in the lift is crucial. If you don't have strong rear delts, rhomboids, and trapezius muscles you are going to either (a) miss the lift, (b) round your back like crazy or (c) rip your arms out of their sockets. The deadlift places a great amount of pressure on the upper back.....the day after I deadlift my upper back is really sore!

Anyway, I agree with gopro 100%.....the deadlift is a crucial exercise in a training program.

I wasn't being combatative, I was just asking for my knowledge, I hope that wasn't taken the wrong way.

I enjoy doing deadlifts, recently my lower back has felt a little funky, but I would advocate the exercise any day, I just wanted to know how it actually works the upper back.

One question though...is this "pressure" on the upper back the same kind of pressure as the lower back feels when you do something like a bent over row? Meaning, is it more of an isometric type of thing (is that the correct term?) with the upper back where the lower back is the actual muscle being exercised?

 

[P-funk]

I wasn't being combatative, I was just asking for my knowledge, I hope that wasn't taken the wrong way.

I enjoy doing deadlifts, recently my lower back has felt a little funky, but I would advocate the exercise any day, I just wanted to know how it actually works the upper back.

I didn't think you were being combative. I was just answering your question with an example.

anyhoo....if you back is feeling funky check your form or, drop the deadlifts for awhile in favor of something else.

 

[CowPimp]

Haha...apparently so am I!! LOL!! I apologize!! I MEANT that deadlifts make your back MORE (not less) resistant to injury!

It's funny because I was wondering why you might disagree with me, and now I went back and saw what I typed (now edited of course).

Haha, I thought something was amiss. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[AKIRA]

How exactly does a deadlift work to counteract a bench press? If you think in terms of antagonistic exercises for push vs pull, you have bench press-rows, shoulder press-pullups, dips-upright rows, where does the deadlift fit into this?

I still don't see how it affects upper back mass as much as some of you are stating. I mean, I am coming off doing a powerlifting routine, and all I can tell is that my erectors are fricken huge right now, but I feel I get nothing out of the deadlift in my upper back, all I feel after a day of deads is my lower back. (OK, so now someone is gonna say I have bad form, thats why, lol )

Actually, thats a good question. I dont rememeber my upper back ever being sore. But then again, that may be why I fucked something up.

I thought I might had a hernia, but maybe it was just a groin pull.
In any case, I have completly started over with deadlifts. Meaning I am back down to 135lbs focusing on nothing but form. And it beat the shit out of me. My hams were sore and my lower back a little, but not my upper back. But then again, 'soreness is not an indicator or hypertrophy.' No pain though, so I dont know.

Back to the subject, do RACK Deadlifts fall into this do not do deadlifts thread?

 

[CowPimp]

Back to the subject, do RACK Deadlifts fall into this do not do deadlifts thread?

Well, I don't think deadlifts fall into this do not do deadlifts thread, heh.

 

[IRON MAN]

Haha...apparently so am I!! LOL!! I apologize!! I MEANT that deadlifts make your back MORE (not less) resistant to injury!

It's funny because I was wondering why you might disagree with me, and now I went back and saw what I typed (now edited of course).

I think this could hold true for those who are EXTREMELY flexible but many trainers are not. I also do not believe that deadlifts when done properly work mostly the lower back. I think they mostly work the muscles in this order.

1. Quads
2. Hams
3. Glutes
4. Errectors
5. Traps
6. Abs.

What's your thoughts on this???

 

[IRON MAN]

How exactly does a deadlift work to counteract a bench press? If you think in terms of antagonistic exercises for push vs pull, you have bench press-rows, shoulder press-pullups, dips-upright rows, where does the deadlift fit into this?

I still don't see how it affects upper back mass as much as some of you are stating. I mean, I am coming off doing a powerlifting routine, and all I can tell is that my erectors are fricken huge right now, but I feel I get nothing out of the deadlift in my upper back, all I feel after a day of deads is my lower back. (OK, so now someone is gonna say I have bad form, thats why, lol )

Deadlifts are not a substitute for ROWS in terms of developing upper back thickness. Rows not deadlifts are the antagonist movement for the bench press. But like P-FUNK stated the deadlift can make your upper back/traps sore because they are used as stabilizers during the movement.

Note: When I train delts with over head presses my upper traps get sore. After one arm dumbell rows my lower traps get pumped. But thats not to say overhead presses and dumbell rows can be compared to shrugs in building trap mass. Same principle applies to deadlifts verses rows for upper back thickness!!!

 

[P-funk]

how do they work your quads primarily with the deadlift? Unless you are sitting way way low at the begining of the pull, I don't see how this is possible. Your hips should be higher then the knees at the start of the pull.

as far as the order of what gets worked when, there is no way you can offer up your opinion on that. No two people pull the same way. Likewise, the same person is not going to pull the same way or contract the same muscles in the same order as the weight nears a limit attempt. Other factors get involved as the intensity rises.

 

[PTYP]

Just thought Id chime in this thread, not because Im an expert because I am certainly not although I do have alot of experience in the gym, but because I do have personal and relevant experience with this exact topic.

When I was in HS playing football, I took a pretty good shot to the head that transcended down the spine and ended up pinching a nerve that left me on the floor of 6, yes 6 days. I couldnt walk, sit, hell, I couldnt even get up to go to the bathroom w/o my back spazzing out. Excruciating pain. That was in 1993... over the next 10 years I would experience similar pains from doing the smallest thing.. picking up clothes from the floor, loading the dishwasher, playing basketball, or any sport for that matter.. in that 10 year time frame I would was at least 2x a year I would be on the floor again for 6 days not being able to move.

I started weight training again seriously again in 2003 and was reluctant to perform squats and of course deadlifts. However, one day I said wth.. Im feeling pretty good, lets just see what I can do. So I started off light and of the course of a few months continually increased weight in both squats and DLs. They have both been staples in my routine for 3 years and in that time, I have had 0 episodes to the extreme that I described above.

I would love to say that squats and DLs have strengthened my lower back and have aided in keeping me from throwing the back in the last 3 years.

I will say however that a few weeks ago I started seeing a chiropractor that is helping me rebuild my rotator cuff muscles after a snowboarding incident, and she asked about my workouts. She was very adiment about NOT doing DLs.

Much like this thread in general, I too am giving conflicting ideas from myself w/ first hand experience and a medical professional that deals with this stuff daily.. who is right, who is wrong is irrelevant. It comes down to personal choice. If you feel you can do them and benefit greatly from them, then do so at your own risk. If you feel the risk does not warrant the reward, then dont do them.

And finally, I will say this one last thing about throwing backs. Everytime Ive experienced an episode to the magnitude I described above, it has ALWAYS been while bending or squating down... not up. So for DLs, I would say the negative is THE most dangerous part of the lift and strict form and absolute concentration should be used. Not to say I advocate not using strict form and absolute concentration on the way up, but definitely on the way down.

For what its worth..

 

[IRON MAN]

how do they work your quads primarily with the deadlift? Unless you are sitting way way low at the begining of the pull, I don't see how this is possible. Your hips should be higher then the knees at the start of the pull.

as far as the order of what gets worked when, there is no way you can offer up your opinion on that. No two people pull the same way. Likewise, the same person is not going to pull the same way or contract the same muscles in the same order as the weight nears a limit attempt. Other factors get involved as the intensity rises.

Haven't you ever noticed how Louie Simmons preaches the "Box Squat" as an assistant movement for deadlifts???

I agree no two people pull exaclty the same but you are to lift with your "Legs", as when moving furniture, not your "Lower Back".

 

[P-funk]

Haven't you ever noticed how Louie Simmons preaches the "Box Squat" as an assistant movement for deadlifts???

I agree no two people pull exaclty the same but you are to lift with your "Legs", as when moving furniture, not your "Lower Back".

have you read any of louie's articles? If you know anything about westside training, they use the box squat because they squat IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER that they deadlift. Which is a wide wide stance and sitting all the way back to really use the hip extensors and take the quads out of it. Everything is from the glutes, hams and lower back with them. The box squat is an assistance lift for the deadlift because the trunk angle and hip joint angle is supposed to be the exact same as the lockout when they are finishing the lift.

if you don't know what you are talking about...don't talk at all.

 

[topolo]

 

[shiznit2169]

How about ..

If you want to deadlift, then go ahead and deadlift

If you are concerned and do not want to risk it, then don't do it

Personally, i like to deadlift becausr it's one of the best mass building exercises and i just love pulling a lot of weight off the floor. It boosts my ego and huge guys are checking out my ass and getting a hard-on. That is definitely an accomplishment for me.

Now, what are you waiting for. Put on some chalk and go deadlift you pussies.

 

[Brutus_G]

Lol

It boosts my ego and huge guys are checking out my ass and getting a hard-on. That is definitely an accomplishment for me.

That's good to know man. I mainly feel deadlifts in my lower back,hipes,glutes,hams,and then quads. I don't at all feel my traps in the movement.

 

[CowPimp]

Just to add to the topic of which muscles are stimulated most during a deadlift, you have to consider the center of gravity that you are lifting through during a deadlift. It is shifted forward a lot relative to a squat, so torque on the hip joint is increased and torque on the knee joint is decreased. Therefore, the emphasis moves away from your knee extensors (Quadriceps) and is shifted more toward your hip extensors (Glutes, hamstrings). So, even if you sit down real low at the beginning of the deadlift, there is still going to be additional recruitment of the hip extensors relative to a squat.

Also, I'm referring to an Olympic style squat with the bar sitting high on your traps and a more upright stance as opposed to a PL squat performed with a wider stance and additional forward lean.

 

[Brutus_G]

Should i be letting the weight hit the ground when i deadlift? I thought doing this takes off some tension from the muscles,but i see lots of guys in videos doing this for like 5-8 reps.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3517641807498259118&q=deadlift&pl=true
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6216339882038630725&q=deadlift&pl=true

 

[CowPimp]

Should i be letting the weight hit the ground when i deadlift? I thought doing this takes off some tension from the muscles,but i see lots of guys in videos doing this for like 5-8 reps.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3517641807498259118&q=deadlift&pl=true
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6216339882038630725&q=deadlift&pl=true

I usually alter the method I use for deadlifting for reps depending on where my sticking point is. If my sticking point is near the floor, then I pause in between repetitions to help improve starting strength. If my sticking point is higher up then I will usually kind of tap the weight on the floor in the interest of overloading the top portion of the lift a little more.

 

[Brutus_G]

Ok thanks man. I feel mine is near the floor so i'll just take the pause then.

 

[CowPimp]

Ok thanks man. I feel mine is near the floor so i'll just take the pause then.

You may also consider deadlifting from a deficit and additional work for your lower back.

 

[Brutus_G]

Sorry to bug you again man but is this what you mean?

 

[CowPimp]

Sorry to bug you again man but is this what you mean?

Yup. Sometimes I even stand on an aerobic step or half a stackable plastic box or something.

 

[gopro]

Ok, well, P-Funk and Cowpimp already did my job for me...and remarkably well I might add...so all I can do now is