My sad deadlift diatribe

[gopro]

Stopping deadlifts had nothing to do with your disk herniating. If that was the case everyone who did not deadlift would have disk herniations. I wish it were that simple!!!

Note: What exercises/activities had you been doing the week prior to having the sciatica kick it. What had you been doing when you first felt this leg/hip pain start?

You did not comprehend the meaning of that post properly IM. What the doc was saying was that the herniation already existed, but that heavy deadlifting kept all of the muscles supporting my spine in top condition, thus, my body was unaffected by the herniation. Once I stopped deadlifting, I lost valuable core strength that caused the herniation to rear its ugly head.

And by the way, this is not just any old doctor. He works with professional football players, baseball players, as well as Olympic athletes. All who go to him to literally keep them on the field.

 

[gopro]

I also read were GO-PRO uses the "Neck Press" for chest. Do you realize that particular exercise can destroy the rotator cuff. Vince Gironda caused many to have shoulder problems by preaching "Neck Presses" for chest development.

Note: As with the shoulders press, the deadlift can be hard on the back due to the intensity employed!!!

Yes I have done them for many years, as heavy as 405 on the smith machine, and have not had a single problem with my shoulders.

They should only be used by those with very flexible shoulder joints, and after extensive warmup.

 

[NMOY]

Lol wow wow wow guys, lets all cool out and pound a protien shake or something!

 

[IRON MAN]

You want to stay injury free, you must do lifts that mimic what we do in everyday life. We must not only thing in terms of the muscles we can see, but those that lie deep. Functional lifting builds strong, functional bodies. There must be a balance of strength between the muscles that move us, and those that stabilize us. The only way to do this is to deadlift, overhead press, squat, lunge, twist, row, etc. I call this 3-dimensional lifting. We do not live life attached to machines, but in a 3-dimensional environment, that requires strength, balance, and stabilization all at once.

Of course, all of the above is moot if proper technique is not used. When poor technique is used, you can get hurt from deadlifting or doing reverse wrist curls.

That said, if you use training to build true functional strength from head to toe, you can get away with many more "physical mishaps" in life that would otherwise cause major problems.

Hey at least we are all concerned about the safety of our well being and that's the main thing here as this debate will never be finalized. But I would like to say one thing about "Functional Lifting." The sit-up is a perfect example of mimicing everyday life. When we wake up in the morning we don't CRUNCH our way out of bed. We do a SIT-UP !!!

With that being said the same exact scenario applies to DEADLIFTS!!! You could take a group of people who had no prior back trouble. Have them mimic a deadlift by lifting a few 50 pound bags of mulch over a period of time while doing yard work and they wouldn't experience any serious back pain/problems. Muscle pain maybe but not disk pain. But take that same group of people and have them heave up "Heavy Weights" with "Extreme Intensity" and some will end up nearly crippled. No one can say with any accuracy who will and who will not end up with chronic debilitating back pain from doing deadlifts. The same goes for over-head presses and rotator cuff pain but I am extremely cautious because back trouble is far more extreme than a shoulder injury.

Did heavy deadlifts cause your disk to herniate over a period of time? I can't say for sure but my gut feeling is possibly.

 

[P-funk]

Hey at least we are all concerned about the safety of our well being and that's the main thing here as this debate will never be finalized. But I would like to say one thing about "Functional Lifting." The sit-up is a perfect example of mimicing everyday life. When we wake up in the morning we don't CRUNCH our way out of bed. We do a SIT-UP !!!

people, however, perform crunches in an effort to strength their abs without the hip flexors exhibiting synergystic dominance (as seen in the sit up, when you get past the first 20 degree or so, the hip flexors pull you the rest of the way up). Majority of people have tight/over active hip flexors and weak abdominals, displaying an excessive anterior pelvic tilt (also sometimes reffered to as lower cross syndrome).

So, in an effort to strengthen the abs and decrease the activety of the hip flexors, which are already overly tight, they do crunches.


again, if you have nothing smart to say then say nothing at all. You seriously don't know what you are talking about.

 

[IRON MAN]

people, however, perform crunches in an effort to strength their abs without the hip flexors exhibiting synergystic dominance (as seen in the sit up, when you get past the first 20 degree or so, the hip flexors pull you the rest of the way up). Majority of people have tight/over active hip flexors and weak abdominals, displaying an excessive anterior pelvic tilt (also sometimes reffered to as lower cross syndrome).

So, in an effort to strengthen the abs and decrease the activety of the hip flexors, which are already overly tight, they do crunches.


again, if you have nothing smart to say then say nothing at all. You seriously don't know what you are talking about.

Dude you need a serious attitude adjustment!!!!! Have I disrespected you in any way in this debate? No I have not and I'd appreciate it if you treated me with the same respect I have shown towards you and the others. If you can't say something nice it's best to say nothing at all..

So now your trying to tell us that SIT-UPS aren't hard on the back if you have strong abs??? Oh dear Lord!!!

 

[P-funk]

Dude you need a serious attitude adjustment!!!!! Have I disrespected you in any way in this debate? No I have not and I'd appreciate it if you treated me with the same respect I have shown towards you and the others. If you can't say something nice it's best to say nothing at all..

So now your trying to tell us that SIT-UPS aren't hard on the back if you have strong abs??? Oh dear Lord!!!

I didn't say sit-ups weren't hard on the back. I just gave reasons for crunches.

I wont say anything else since i have nothing nice to say at all. You should stop talking too because clearly you are not very smart and have nothing intelligent to say.

 

[IRON MAN]

You did not comprehend the meaning of that post properly IM. What the doc was saying was that the herniation already existed, but that heavy deadlifting kept all of the muscles supporting my spine in top condition, thus, my body was unaffected by the herniation. Once I stopped deadlifting, I lost valuable core strength that caused the herniation to rear its ugly head.

And by the way, this is not just any old doctor. He works with professional football players, baseball players, as well as Olympic athletes. All who go to him to literally keep them on the field.

You still do not understand what I am trying to get across here. Yes deadlifts do strengthen the core muscles as do sit-ups but those same exercises that hold our spine in place can do damage to the spinal disk. It's a mistake to treat the back muscle and the spinal disk as the same entity. And no doctor can get you back on the playing field after severe nerve damage occurs.

One of my friends is the #1 Pain Management Specialist in our area. Dennis told me that developing strong core muscle can sometime alleviate the symptoms of a HERNIATED disk that are not fully RUPTURED because of what you just stated -(stronger core muscles). On the other hand, he also claimed that trying to strengthen the core muscle with direct "Abdominal and Lower Back" work can sometimes actually cause the herniated disk to escelate into a full blown rupture. Then you are going under the knife. With that comes scar tissue build up etc, . Again it's not as simple as doing an exercise and getting better once the damage has been done. I have a "Prevention Mentality" as opposed to "Damage Control." when it comes to something as serious as the spine

 

[IRON MAN]

I didn't say sit-ups weren't hard on the back. I just gave reasons for crunches.

I wont say anything else since i have nothing nice to say at all. You should stop talking too because clearly you are not very smart and have nothing intelligent to say.

I'll say this and we can agree to disagree. P-FUNK you sound like a guy who thinks he knows it all but in reality you've OBVIOUSLY never experienced any "SEVERE BACK PROBLEMS". I challenge you to go visit your local "Spine Center" and see how many of those people you can cure with SIT-UPS and DEAD-LIFTS.

 

[CowPimp]

Regarding the whole issue of the degeneration of spinal disks, I have begun to implement a novel idea (Well probably not novel, but something that kind of just struck me after reading a few articles on the subject from powerlifters who beat the shit out of their spines) in my own program. When unloading (Every 5-6 weeks), I'm going to avoid directly loading my spine throughout the entire week. I think this will largely quell the issue of disk degeneration over time, as I am giving them a chance to fully recover for an entire 2 months or more every year.

Also, regarding the issue of properly stimulating the posterior chain, I still say deadlifts (Or at least some variation thereof) are necessary. Extensions aren't going to cut it. There is no way in Hell that squatting can be balanced out by an isolation movement like that in my opinon. I think good mornings are awesome, but I feel those are much riskier than deadlifts.

 

[IRON MAN]

Regarding the whole issue of the degeneration of spinal disks, I have begun to implement a novel idea (Well probably not novel, but something that kind of just struck me after reading a few articles on the subject from powerlifters who beat the shit out of their spines) in my own program. When unloading (Every 5-6 weeks), I'm going to avoid directly loading my spine throughout the entire week. I think this will largely quell the issue of disk degeneration over time, as I am giving them a chance to fully recover for an entire 2 months or more every year.

Also, regarding the issue of properly stimulating the posterior chain, I still say deadlifts (Or at least some variation thereof) are necessary. Extensions aren't going to cut it. There is no way in Hell that squatting can be balanced out by an isolation movement like that in my opinon. I think good mornings are awesome, but I feel those are much riskier than deadlifts.

GOOD MORNINGS??? Are you joking??? That exercise put my good friend out of training for over 5 years. The guy had 7 major lower back surgeries due to that stupid exercise. Good Mornings are worse than the Back Extension machine. I strongly urge you and everyone else on this board to shun Good Mornings. That exercise can cripple you in a blink of an eye!!! Weighted back extensions and crunches will suffice. Just give it a try and see for yourself.

 

[shiznit2169]

Listen people

To each its own. Do what you want to do. Don't let others influence you and make you change your way of thinking. Everyone has their own views and opinions.

 

[P-funk]

I'll say this and we can agree to disagree. P-FUNK you sound like a guy who thinks he knows it all but in reality you've OBVIOUSLY never experienced any "SEVERE BACK PROBLEMS". I challenge you to go visit your local "Spine Center" and see how many of those people you can cure with SIT-UPS and DEAD-LIFTS.

curing and preventing are two different things.

I don't know everything. But neither do you.......so please stop with "Note: blah blah blah" at the end of each of your posts, like you are saying something very meaningful and thought provoking to everyone here.

I am sorry that I attacekd you. That was more of my New York side coming out. I should have been a bit more "honed down". Since i am moving out of NYC I guess I have to try and drop the NYC vibe. So I will start now....

I will agree to disagree with you on this. While I see where you are coming from I will still stand by my reasoning that peoples weak, under developed core and posterior chain are what create majority of back problems in this society. walk into a chiropractic office and ask people how they got their back problem and I can bet you that you may find one out of 40 that say they got it in the gym. Most will say it was doing somethign that they do everyday and/or some freak thing like skiing. In both cases this may have potentially been avoid had the person been more able to withstand the forces being placed on their spine at that time and had better stabilizatio throughout the movement or task they were performing. While I can agree that limit attempts for the gerneral public are not neccessary, I will say that strengthening the posterior chain is still a vitale part of creating a strong healthy body.

-patrick

 

[IRON MAN]

curing and preventing are two different things.

I don't know everything. But neither do you.......so please stop with "Note: blah blah blah" at the end of each of your posts, like you are saying something very meaningful and thought provoking to everyone here.

I am sorry that I attacekd you. That was more of my New York side coming out. I should have been a bit more "honed down". Since i am moving out of NYC I guess I have to try and drop the NYC vibe. So I will start now....

I will agree to disagree with you on this. While I see where you are coming from I will still stand by my reasoning that peoples weak, under developed core and posterior chain are what create majority of back problems in this society. walk into a chiropractic office and ask people how they got their back problem and I can bet you that you may find one out of 40 that say they got it in the gym. Most will say it was doing somethign that they do everyday and/or some freak thing like skiing. In both cases this may have potentially been avoid had the person been more able to withstand the forces being placed on their spine at that time and had better stabilizatio throughout the movement or task they were performing. While I can agree that limit attempts for the gerneral public are not neccessary, I will say that strengthening the posterior chain is still a vitale part of creating a strong healthy body.

-patrick

N.Y. eh? That explains alot.. Thank you and I agree that some back pain comes from a lack of exercise. I will stick with my beliefs as well, and that belief is that POWERLIFTERS rarely train to failure on exercises such as the "Bench Press" and "Deadlift." But BODYBUILDERS train to failure often and should avoid both of these exercises because of that fact. Again I feel it's the intensity level used with those particular exercises that can really break you.

 

[kcoleman]

"I will stick with my beliefs as well, and that belief is that POWERLIFTERS rarely train to failure on exercises such as the "Bench Press" and "Deadlift." But BODYBUILDERS train to failure often and should avoid both of these exercises because of that fact. Again I feel it's the intensity level used with those particular exercises that can really break you."

Are you saying bodybuilders should avoid bench press and deadlifts completely or just avoid training to failure on these 2 exercises? bench press and deads are a staple in my routine

 

[JordanMang]

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth but if I can get a back like P-funks I'll take his advice anyday. Obviously their's a risk, I mean you're trying to do something for yourself that could intale pain if you aren't careful...you saying to not do deadlifts is like saying "Don't drive a car - because you may have a car crash!". It's a obvious risk, and most people are willing to take it ( infact 94% of Americans do everyday ). So we get what you're saying, but your argument is lacking a bit..

 

[IRON MAN]

"I will stick with my beliefs as well, and that belief is that POWERLIFTERS rarely train to failure on exercises such as the "Bench Press" and "Deadlift." But BODYBUILDERS train to failure often and should avoid both of these exercises because of that fact. Again I feel it's the intensity level used with those particular exercises that can really break you."

Are you saying bodybuilders should avoid bench press and deadlifts completely or just avoid training to failure on these 2 exercises? bench press and deads are a staple in my routine

I am of the belief that bodybuilders should train to failure or just a rep shy inorder to gain maximum muscle mass. In addition bodybuilders train with more overall reps causing wear and tear over a period of time. So yes I believe bodybuilders should avoid the BARBELL BENCH PRESS and DEADLIFTS for that reason. I see no value in performing these 2 exercises from a bodybuilders perspective. If you do use them I would not train to failure.

 

[IRON MAN]

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth but if I can get a back like P-funks I'll take his advice anyday. Obviously their's a risk, I mean you're trying to do something for yourself that could intale pain if you aren't careful...you saying to not do deadlifts is like saying "Don't drive a car - because you may have a car crash!". It's a obvious risk, and most people are willing to take it ( infact 94% of Americans do everyday ). So we get what you're saying, but your argument is lacking a bit..

P-FUNK has a nice back but many of us who do not use deadlifts also have outstanding back development.

Driving a car is a necessity. Doing Deadlifts and Barbell Bench Presses are not!!!

 

[JordanMang]

I'm confused - since when have cars ever been necessary? You have feet, you have legs ( hopefully strong ones if you're posting here ), bycicles, air planes, helicopters, boats, trains, and those are just mechnical means of transportation besides cars...

 

[kcoleman]

I train to positive failure on barbell bench but not with deadlifts.

 

[IRON MAN]

I train to positive failure on barbell bench but not with deadlifts.

I would go with a 15% incline or decline press if your wanting to gain more chest size without injurying your rotator cuffs. The flat bench press places a great amount of force on the pec tendon when training to failure.

 

[IRON MAN]

I'm confused - since when have cars ever been necessary? You have feet, you have legs ( hopefully strong ones if you're posting here ), bycicles, air planes, helicopters, boats, trains, and those are just mechnical means of transportation besides cars...

I see..And I quess you grow your own food instead of going to the grocery store..

 

[CowPimp]

GOOD MORNINGS??? Are you joking??? That exercise put my good friend out of training for over 5 years. The guy had 7 major lower back surgeries due to that stupid exercise. Good Mornings are worse than the Back Extension machine. I strongly urge you and everyone else on this board to shun Good Mornings. That exercise can cripple you in a blink of an eye!!! Weighted back extensions and crunches will suffice. Just give it a try and see for yourself.

I don't have my clients do good mornings. That isn't a risk I'm willing to take, although it would probably be fine with pretty light weights for certain people. However, there is no way you can compare back extensions to good mornings. I do hyperextensions and reverse hyperextensions, and they don't hold a candle to good mornings. Good mornings have possibly been the most productive exercise I have ever done in terms of developing my posterior chain.

 

[kcoleman]

I would go with a 15% incline or decline press if your wanting to gain more chest size without injurying your rotator cuffs. The flat bench press places a great amount of force on the pec tendon when training to failure.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have barely trained incline or decline so it will be a big ego hit to switch to either one of them from flat pressing, a movement I have trained alot and made significant progress in.

 

[Brutus_G]

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=270spine2
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=271spine2
SM: Yes???from several perspectives. When you look at the mechanisms of injury???let???s take for example a herniated disk???if a person maintains a neutral spine, as would an Olympic weight lifter for example, it???s very difficult to create a herniated disk. In contrast, in powerlifting some of the folks repeatedly flex their spine, and repeated full flexion with spinal compression is the mechanism to create a herniated disk.

Here is an example of where a muscle physiologist might tell you "Yes, you???ve got to work the spine through a full range of motion," but if you do it under load you risk replicating the disk herniating mechanism. So the training becomes a damaging routine accumulating microtrauma rather than continuous tissue enhancement and improved performance motor patterning.

Another vital fact is that under pure compression loads, and when the spine is fully flexed, we???ve measured the spine losing up to 40% of its ability to bear compressive loads. In other words the spine is strongest when in a neutral position.

Also among the misperceptions that I hear out there about the rectus abdominis, and upper vs. lower abdominals, is that you???ve got to work the rectus throughout its range of motion. Again these might be muscle physiologists speaking but not people who are cognizant of spinal mechanics. For example, when you look at the architecture of the rectus, it???s a muscle with four heads, four contractile components each separated by a lateral tendon.

If it was a muscle designed to work through its full range of motion it would be one long continuous muscle???but it???s not. It anchors the obliques and transmits the hoop stresses laterally through those lateral tendons. If it wasn???t beaded, the oblique forces would rip it apart laterally. In many elite performances the abdominals contract isometrically. Too many bad backs are created by misinformed people thinking they need to train the rectus with repeated full flexion exercises. There are much better and safer ways to do this.

So again if we???re training athletes to perform, the question is do they need to work the lumbar spine through a full range of motion? Lumbar flexibility often increases the risk of future chronicity! For example, I???ve worked with some very good discus throwers and you???d think that discus throwing would require a huge amount of twist in someone???s back. In fact, if you take the twist out of the training, stabilize and lock the ribcage onto the pelvis, and twist through the legs and shoulders, you may actually enhance performance. Certainly it may be required to reduce back symptoms.

Other performance requirements include variables like speed, agility and/or strength for example; all three of these things require stability, perhaps keeping a line of drive down the torso and through the feet into the ground, etc. A stiffened core may be optimal. So, of course this whole issue depends on the person and the task. But in many cases from both performance and safety perspectives, it???s a bit of a myth that the spine needs to be trained through its range of motion.

I hope this helps he goes into great detail about everything discussed. It appears your both right on several points.

 

[IRON MAN]

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=270spine2
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=271spine2
SM: Yes???from several perspectives. When you look at the mechanisms of injury???let???s take for example a herniated disk???if a person maintains a neutral spine, as would an Olympic weight lifter for example, it???s very difficult to create a herniated disk. In contrast, in powerlifting some of the folks repeatedly flex their spine, and repeated full flexion with spinal compression is the mechanism to create a herniated disk.

Here is an example of where a muscle physiologist might tell you "Yes, you???ve got to work the spine through a full range of motion," but if you do it under load you risk replicating the disk herniating mechanism. So the training becomes a damaging routine accumulating microtrauma rather than continuous tissue enhancement and improved performance motor patterning.

Another vital fact is that under pure compression loads, and when the spine is fully flexed, we???ve measured the spine losing up to 40% of its ability to bear compressive loads. In other words the spine is strongest when in a neutral position.

Also among the misperceptions that I hear out there about the rectus abdominis, and upper vs. lower abdominals, is that you???ve got to work the rectus throughout its range of motion. Again these might be muscle physiologists speaking but not people who are cognizant of spinal mechanics. For example, when you look at the architecture of the rectus, it???s a muscle with four heads, four contractile components each separated by a lateral tendon.

If it was a muscle designed to work through its full range of motion it would be one long continuous muscle???but it???s not. It anchors the obliques and transmits the hoop stresses laterally through those lateral tendons. If it wasn???t beaded, the oblique forces would rip it apart laterally. In many elite performances the abdominals contract isometrically. Too many bad backs are created by misinformed people thinking they need to train the rectus with repeated full flexion exercises. There are much better and safer ways to do this.

So again if we???re training athletes to perform, the question is do they need to work the lumbar spine through a full range of motion? Lumbar flexibility often increases the risk of future chronicity! For example, I???ve worked with some very good discus throwers and you???d think that discus throwing would require a huge amount of twist in someone???s back. In fact, if you take the twist out of the training, stabilize and lock the ribcage onto the pelvis, and twist through the legs and shoulders, you may actually enhance performance. Certainly it may be required to reduce back symptoms.

Other performance requirements include variables like speed, agility and/or strength for example; all three of these things require stability, perhaps keeping a line of drive down the torso and through the feet into the ground, etc. A stiffened core may be optimal. So, of course this whole issue depends on the person and the task. But in many cases from both performance and safety perspectives, it???s a bit of a myth that the spine needs to be trained through its range of motion.

I hope this helps he goes into great detail about everything discussed. It appears your both right on several points.

I agree with this article in terms of lower back and ab training.

A lot of trainers have come to the realization that training abs can produce back problems. Disk ruptures have occured using certain abdominal exercises such as the full range sit up and reverse sit-up. Thats why I have my clients use cruches and reverse crunches for abs.

 

[IRON MAN]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have barely trained incline or decline so it will be a big ego hit to switch to either one of them from flat pressing, a movement I have trained alot and made significant progress in.

Flat bench is definetly an EGO lift..

 

[gopro]

I am done with this debate. I have no time for this really. You are a nice guy IRON MAN, and I have no problem with you. I just completely disagree with you and your perspective on many aspect of lifting (as I am slowly beginning to see). If you do well and your clients do well, then I wish more power to you. Thats all.

 

[IRON MAN]

I am done with this debate. I have no time for this really. You are a nice guy IRON MAN, and I have no problem with you. I just completely disagree with you and your perspective on many aspect of lifting (as I am slowly beginning to see). If you do well and your clients do well, then I wish more power to you. Thats all.

It would be a boring life if we all believed the same way. Most of what I have learned is from time spent in the gym and by observing others. Theres thousands of articles saying to do this exercise and don't use this one, etc, etc but if I experience something that does not agree with a particular article written down on paper, I will dis-regard it and go by what does work best. For e.g. some articles teach to do wrist curls and reverse wrist curls to re-hab a weak wrist inorder to prevent carpal tunnel syndrome. But for some it's those very exercises that brings forth further damage. I compare deadlifts to wrist curls when taken to momentary muscular failure but again it does not apply to everyone. But the question at hand is " CAN deadlifts do permanent damage to the lower back"??? According to my experience and the starter of this thread the answer is YES!!!


I think it all boils down to what our personal experiences have been. It's not always a matter of who's right and who's wrong. I think many apsects of life fall into that category.

Thanks for the time you spent in this long drawn out debate and we will have to agree to disagree on this subject matter and move on.

Thank you for displaying a "Professional Attitude" throughout.

 

[IRON MAN]

I don't have my clients do good mornings. That isn't a risk I'm willing to take, although it would probably be fine with pretty light weights for certain people. However, there is no way you can compare back extensions to good mornings. I do hyperextensions and reverse hyperextensions, and they don't hold a candle to good mornings. Good mornings have possibly been the most productive exercise I have ever done in terms of developing my posterior chain.

I'm with P-FUNK on this one because this movement-Good Mornings mimics the "Back Extension Machines" P-FUNK is against. I think deadlifts done with less weight and low intensity work would be a better choice. I can't imagine myself doing an exercise I would not feel comfortable having my clients do. Either way be safe.