Nearly one Male in every two - Homosexuality and BiSexuality

[John H.]

Read this book - see for yourself what has happened in the past. FORBIDDEN FRIENDSHIPS, by Michael Rocke (Oxford University Press).

Nearly one man in every two was involved Sexually with another Man in Florence, Italy, circa 1350 - 1450 A.D. (which is basically the period discussed in this book)(certainly it existed long before and long after as well and in other towns and areas of the world). This is just one town in Italy - one town in Europe, one town in the world. If it happened in Florence (for which source material exists to document this) then what about the rest of the world and the cities in it and the country as well? Surely there is documentation as well in other areas that this was done and happened elsewhere where records were allowed to survive.

How is it that so many Men can find it right and proper to engage in sexual activity (even loving relationships) with one another and yet we are led to believe it is so very wrong? Certainly these Men felt it was right or they would not have engaged in this actiivity. Some could be "classified (by today's terminology)" as either BiSexual or Homosexual.

Christ, who was on this earth for 32 years, NEVER SAID one word about these relationships being wrong ever. Neither did God.

Read this book also: BIOLOGICAL EXUBERANCE, by Bruce Bagemihl (St. Martin's Press). It discusses BiSexuality and Homosexuality in the animal kingdom (of which we all are a part).

 

[BabsieGirl]

I'll read this in a sec.


JOHN!!!!HOW THE HECK ARE YA BUD

 

[Crono1000]

there are cultures all over the world where homosexuality and even sex with children are acceptable. I think it's a cultural reason we do not accept either.

 

[I Are Baboon]

Originally posted by John H.
Nearly one man in every two was involved Sexually with another Man in Florence, Italy, circa 1350 - 1450 A.D.

No wonder the Romans got conquered.

 

[Vieope]

Right now, 4 men posted in this thread. Does that mean ..

 

[Burner02]

Originally posted by I Are Baboon
No wonder the Romans got conquered.

Originally posted by Crono1000
there are cultures all over the world where homosexuality and even sex with children are acceptable. I think it's a cultural reason we do not accept either.

I was about to say something to that effect too....

 

[Burner02]

Some More History

~ Life in the 1500's ~

This is really interesting (and TRUE!!)

Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and were still smelling pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the b.o.

Baths equaled a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".

Houses had thatched roofs. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the pets... dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Hence the saying, "It's raining cats and dogs."

There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. So, they found if they made beds with big posts and hung a sheet over the top, it addressed that problem. Hence those beautiful big 4 poster beds with canopies.

The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence the saying "dirt poor." The wealthy had slate floors which would get slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed at the entry way, hence a "thresh hold".

They cooked in the kitchen in a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They mostly ate vegetables and didn't get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been in there for a month. Hence the rhyme: ???Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old."

Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food. This happened most often with tomatoes, so they stopped eating tomatoes... for 400 years.

Most people didn't have pewter plates, but had trenchers - a piece of wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Trenchers were never washed and a lot of times worms got into the wood. After eating off wormy trenchers, they would get "trench mouth."

Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the "upper crust".
Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a "wake".

England is old and small, and they started running out of places to bury people. So, they would dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house and re-use the grave. In reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night to listen for the bell. Hence on the "graveyard shift" they would know that someone was "saved by the bell" or he was a "dead ringer".

 

[Burner02]

I hada really good post, but couldn't get the words to come out right without sounding like an ass, so I won't.
BTW, sorry for making light of your thread, John!

 

[P-funk]

Originally posted by Vieope
Right now, 4 men posted in this thread. Does that mean ..

shit you beat me to it. i didn't see this thread in time

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

^ whoa....
thanks...i guess

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

oops that last post was for burner

 

[P-funk]

Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts
oops that last post was for burner

okay, just don't let it happen again JERK!!

 

[Mudge]

Perhaps this suggests that society does influence sexual behaviors (probably, to an extent). Look at Greece as well.

I'm straight though and I dont see me being anything but uncomfortable if someone were trying to seriously get me to sway the other way. I've had guys hit on me though and it doesn't bother me, so long as they can take the hint that I'm not interested.

 

[kbm8795]

Originally posted by Burner02



I was about to say something to that effect too....

uh...I think you are a few years off on using that myth.

 

[kbm8795]

Originally posted by Mudge
Perhaps this suggests that society does influence sexual behaviors (probably, to an extent). Look at Greece as well.

I'm straight though and I dont see me being anything but uncomfortable if someone were trying to seriously get me to sway the other way. I've had guys hit on me though and it doesn't bother me, so long as they can take the hint that I'm not interested.

hehehe...I've heard about your type, Mudge...you let the dude buy you two or three drinks, then kick him to the curb and pick up the girl (friend) he came in with. . .

 

[kbm8795]

Originally posted by Crono1000
there are cultures all over the world where homosexuality and even sex with children are acceptable. I think it's a cultural reason we do not accept either.

Actually, in a lot of states there weren't laws for many years concerning that activity. Some inherited the old buggery laws from England, but they were apparently confusing. A lot of state lawbooks didn't even have a sodomy law for a hundred years or so - I was reading about that history in one state while researching an article and was kinda surprised at how lax some sexual mores were in this country 140 years ago. Strange considering that religion had a influence...they were more scared of interracial sex than these things.

I think it's just been big business for fundamentalist religions in modern times - dire warnings about these practices can rake in big bucks.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by Burner02
I hada really good post, but couldn't get the words to come out right without sounding like an ass, so I won't.
BTW, sorry for making light of your thread, John!

Hi Burner. No problem. But I want to make absolutely sure people KNOW that I am in NO WAY saying that having sexual relations in any form with CHILDREN is acceptable. That is NEVER ACCEPTABLE for any reason in any manner as far as I am concerned. Having said that, when reading FORBIDDEN FRIENDSHIPS you must remember that people were considered to be of age earlier in life with respect to age of a person - today's 18 year old would probably be about 15 or so then (they were not children at that age) because people HAD to grow up earlier in life and living - people just did not live as long as we do now and people grew up earlier, life demanded that... People involved in relations MUST BE of age and ability of consent and give that consent freely. I would also hope that it would be that they both care honestly and completely about each other as well. Sex is only a part of any relationship never the only thing to consider. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by BabsieGirl
I'll read this in a sec.


JOHN!!!!HOW THE HECK ARE YA BUD

Hi Babsie! Just fine. I hope all is well with ya. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by Crono1000
there are cultures all over the world where homosexuality and even sex with children are acceptable. I think it's a cultural reason we do not accept either.

Hi Crono. I will NEVER feel that having sex with children is ever acceptable - it IS WRONG. I do get pissed when people associate sex with children and Homosexuality though as if it is one and the same and that only people who happen to be Homosexual are the only people having sex with children - NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH - in fact most people having sex with children are Heterosexual when all the facts come to light... As for cultures all over the world - Homosexuality, BiSexuality and Heterosexuality DO EXIST everywhere in the world including in nature and the natural world of which we all are a part whether we like it or not or accept it or not - they are all a natural and right part of life and living and its variation - its variety. There is variety IN ALL THINGS. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Re: Re: Nearly one Male in every two - Homosexuality and BiSexuality

Originally posted by I Are Baboon
No wonder the Romans got conquered.

Hi I. The period covered by FORBIDDEN FRIENDSHIPS by Michael Rocke is long past the time of the Romans and certainly Homosexuality is not the reason they were "defeated" but the Romans - and all people actually - were/are Heterosexual, BiSexual or Homosexual - that IS a fact and a part of life and living. There is variety IN ALL THINGS in life including Sex - a PART of life and living. To know the reasons why you must learn and study all things from all sources to get the best overall picture. And to HONESTLY UNDERSTAND. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Re: Some More History

Originally posted by Burner02
~ Life in the 1500's ~

This is really interesting (and TRUE!!)

Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and were still smelling pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the b.o.

Baths equaled a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".

Houses had thatched roofs. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the pets... dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Hence the saying, "It's raining cats and dogs."

There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. So, they found if they made beds with big posts and hung a sheet over the top, it addressed that problem. Hence those beautiful big 4 poster beds with canopies.

The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence the saying "dirt poor." The wealthy had slate floors which would get slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed at the entry way, hence a "thresh hold".

They cooked in the kitchen in a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They mostly ate vegetables and didn't get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been in there for a month. Hence the rhyme: ???Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old."

Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food. This happened most often with tomatoes, so they stopped eating tomatoes... for 400 years.

Most people didn't have pewter plates, but had trenchers - a piece of wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Trenchers were never washed and a lot of times worms got into the wood. After eating off wormy trenchers, they would get "trench mouth."

Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the "upper crust".
Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a "wake".

England is old and small, and they started running out of places to bury people. So, they would dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house and re-use the grave. In reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night to listen for the bell. Hence on the "graveyard shift" they would know that someone was "saved by the bell" or he was a "dead ringer".

Hi Burner. The more we learn from history the more we understand today - and the past. It is surprising many times how we THINK we know - and actually we do not... There is a saying: "Those that do not learn from history are destined to repeat it" - VERY TRUE! Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by Mudge
Perhaps this suggests that society does influence sexual behaviors (probably, to an extent). Look at Greece as well.

I'm straight though and I dont see me being anything but uncomfortable if someone were trying to seriously get me to sway the other way. I've had guys hit on me though and it doesn't bother me, so long as they can take the hint that I'm not interested.

Hi Mudge. True. People are as born though and if you are not interested - you are not. No one "changes" anyone really. You are who you (meaning anyone here) are sexually speaking. There are natural reasons for this just as there are natural reasons why people are born male, female, white, black, etc. Variety is one of the reasons and that is a part of what makes life and living so interesting and a wonderful experience. Imagine life without variety.... Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by kbm8795
Actually, in a lot of states there weren't laws for many years concerning that activity. Some inherited the old buggery laws from England, but they were apparently confusing. A lot of state lawbooks didn't even have a sodomy law for a hundred years or so - I was reading about that history in one state while researching an article and was kinda surprised at how lax some sexual mores were in this country 140 years ago. Strange considering that religion had a influence...they were more scared of interracial sex than these things.

I think it's just been big business for fundamentalist religions in modern times - dire warnings about these practices can rake in big bucks.

Hi Kbm. Oh it IS ABSOLUTELY about the "money" (big bucks) that can be "raked in" and NOT about ANY honestly or accuracy with religion. There is another book I saw recently THE INVENTION OF SODOMY IN CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY by Mark Jordan (University of Chicago Press) with regard to sodomy... I look at it this way: Christ NEVER said one word - God NEVER said one word THEMSELVES - EVER - They simply NEVER DID - regarding BiSexuality and Homosexuality. If these forms (variations) of sexuality were wrong THEY WOULD HAVE SAID SO THEMSELVES - THEY NEVER DID. So then who is Man to say they are then "wrong" because the Bible IS WRITTEN by MEN - over 40 and over a long period of time. There was no Bible as we know it today during the Time of Christ and not for a long time after He died. The New Testament was written hundreds of years after His death. The Old Testament is nothing more than the old Jewish law books. Given all the hatred, killing, murder, unrest, unhappiness, etc. of this area of the world - and it has been going on for THOUSANDS of years ALL RELIGION-based too - I do not hold too much with regard with what is said or believed or professed. God/Christ would NEVER have ANYTHING to do with hatred, bigotry, etc. which so many religions are the sources and authors of... Life is to BE LIVED AND ENJOYED AND UNDERSTOOD honestly and accurately with respect, dignity, love, etc. Take Care, John H.

 

[Pepper]

John H. you can keep saying the Bible is silent on bi/homosexuality but it just aint so. The Bible is clear that sex is for marriage and marriage is man and wife. I agre that all people ought to be treated with respect, but I don't appreciate you twisting the Bible to suit you needs.

Your comments about the OT are so wrong that it almost comical. The OT was The Bible for thousands of years.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by Pepper
John H. you can keep saying the Bible is silent on bi/homosexuality but it just aint so. The Bible is clear that sex is for marriage and marriage is man and wife. I agre that all people ought to be treated with respect, but I don't appreciate you twisting the Bible to suit you needs.

Your comments about the OT are so wrong that it almost comical. The OT was The Bible for thousands of years.

Hi Pepper. Please see what I actually said. I said God and Christ THEMSELVES never said. And They NEVER DID not one time. I also said the Bible was written by people - human beings - over 40 and over a long period of time. The Bible is just one religion's religious article/book just as the Jewish religion has their books, the other religions have theirs which they consider to be holy, etc. You must remember that there are thousands of religions each with their own religious articles/books, etc. Each have their own beliefs...

I am not twisting anything but making statements of fact actually. Please reread carefully what I actually did say and how I said it. I am not trying to be disrespectful or whatever to anyone here just making statements of facts.

Take Care, John H.

 

[Pepper]

God's word is the Bible, so God did say it. There is a passage where Christ seems to be talking about homosexuals, I'll have to dig that up.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by Pepper
God's word is the Bible, so God did say it. There is a passage where Christ seems to be talking about homosexuals, I'll have to dig that up.

Hi Pepper. I know what you are saying but I stand by what I have said and I disagree with you on your statements. The Bible WAS written by human beings. We are "told" that it was "inspired by God" - I believe that if God is our Father, all knowing, all powerful, all loving, etc. that He would NEVER allow Man to SPEAK FOR HIM but would speak HIMSELF. See what I am saying? God KNOWS Man and what Man is capabable of doing - or not. God WOULD SPEAK FOR HIMSELF and would never allow MAN to speak FOR HIM. He KNOWS man so certainly He would never allow Man to say something HE should say Himself. I can tell you if I have something to say that is very important I WILL SAY IT MYSELF I will never allow someone to speak FOR me. Especially if I want any accuracy and truthfulness to exist. You will not find CHRIST SAYING ANYTHING HIMSELF because He never did say anything - ever. To me this SAYS a lot - that HE NEVER had reason to address this subject at all and so never did HIMSELF. We are told he did say to "love one another"... Take Care, John H.

 

[Michael D]

I wasn't actually going to read this post as I don't care for homosexuality. I am not surprised you posted it either. I can't help but think "gay" when I see your user name. I have just seen so many posts from you revolving around being gay and such. But I do have my 2 cents to put in.

First, I agree with Pepper. The Bible is the word of God. There is a reason He did things the way he did. We can't understand all of them. He did speak. Ever read the Bible? All the red statements are directly from Him! What about Sodom and Gomorrah?

And I also don't care what happened in Italy between 1350_1450. Why should anyone when speaking about dudes doing dudes?

Also, why do you find a problem with sex with children but you can say that gay sex is made wrong by society. Maybe we should all go and screw some 10 year old and say that is only wrong in society. And as far as heteros being far more into pedophilia, tell that to the priests. Maybe the latest numbers were taken before the church scandal.

 

[Stickboy]

I personally think you are twisting the bible to reflect your views.
You claim there is no mention of condemnation of homosexuality. Actually, there is. Books such as you are recommending are promoting homosexuality, and are twisting the intent and meanings of what is actually written.

In Genesis 2:18, God says "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make him a helper SUITABLE for him".

God, as we know, made woman. He didn't make another man, and a woman. Why? God intended man to be with a woman.

In Leviticus 18:22, God says "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable". (Note that this is God dictating the Law to Moses).

In Leviticus 18:23, God says "Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion." (Again, God dictating the Law to Moses).

These are just a few examples of what God said about the subject. So for you to state that God never said anything about it is false. The Leviticus examples are quoting God's words to Moses. It is clearly stated, and it clearly cast your claims as false.
God did mention, and did so in a manner that would be unrefutable - there is no way to misinterpet what was said.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Originally posted by John H.
Hi Pepper. I know what you are saying but I stand by what I have said and I disagree with you on your statements. The Bible WAS written by human beings. We are "told" that it was "inspired by God" - I believe that if God is our Father, all knowing, all powerful, all loving, etc. that He would NEVER allow Man to SPEAK FOR HIM but would speak HIMSELF. See what I am saying? God KNOWS Man and what Man is capabable of doing - or not. God WOULD SPEAK FOR HIMSELF and would never allow MAN to speak FOR HIM. He KNOWS man so certainly He would never allow Man to say something HE should say Himself. I can tell you if I have something to say that is very important I WILL SAY IT MYSELF I will never allow someone to speak FOR me. Especially if I want any accuracy and truthfulness to exist. You will not find CHRIST SAYING ANYTHING HIMSELF because He never did say anything - ever. To me this SAYS a lot - that HE NEVER had reason to address this subject at all and so never did HIMSELF. We are told he did say to "love one another"... Take Care, John H.

Are you saying that God should Say EVERYTHING in the bible to every person on the earth???