Nearly one Male in every two - Homosexuality and BiSexuality

[John H.]

Originally posted by Pierzin
Point #1: You are a brick. How many people addressed this issue in this forum? I do not need to quote anything, because the Bible has quoted God, several times. Period. To give a concession, yes of course there are contradictions in it. However, to my knowledge, there is no verse in the Old or New Testament, where God or Jesus said: "We give our blessing that if two people of the same sex want to lie together as a man and wife lie together, that is fine, and We no longer view it as sin and may they live happy and long."
But there is no such thing. My issue with your post is, you are interpreting things for your own purposes.
The saints and martyrs wrote the Bible as servants of God. What would it take for you to beleive what God said? Should we go and interview God and tape-record how he/she/it feels about the matter? Would you be satisfied then? While I can't and won't quote Jesus( because I've already concluded you are a brick, and not worthy of the effort), the Bible is clear to most of us how God and Jesus feel about homosexuality/bisexuality.
Now whether or not this stuff really happened in the 1500s or whatever, who cares? You must have really been doing some digging to dredge that up. Hey, whatever floats your boat.

Point #2: I know far more than the average Joe about the history and culture of the Romans, so I'll give you that point. Certainly, through the centuries different people acted according to what they felt was ok for them, just as it is today.

This leads me to point #3:

Why do you care? I could care less. I'm agnostic, so I dont follow any rules. If you're gay, you're gay. If you're bi, you're bi. Do what feels right, screw what people say. You make the call. Make your peace with this whole GOD NEVER SAID THIS OR THAT, crap, because people will shoot you down.
Hey, people have gettin their groove on forever with whoever wanted to, so what?
I want to beleive in God, just not the Judeo-Christian God or a lot of what passes for organized religion. Yes, and I llive in Seattle, go figure! And really, I don't have time to sit around and worry about it either.
You have too much time on your hands, hairsplitter.

Hi Pierzin. You are entitled to think what you want. I go by what actually IS true - God and Christ THEMSELVES NEVER SAID. Now people have SAID THEY SAID but given Man and religious leaders of the past, their history, etc. I believe God/Christ WILL SAY THEMSELVES what is important and NOT leave or trust Man to do that FOR Them. They KNOW man and his capability for unaccuracy and their viewpoint toward their fellow Man. When GOD says and when Christ SAYS THEMSELVES I will believe it and not one word other than THEIR WORD from THEIR MOUTH. God created nature and in nature there is Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality. Man is a part of that natural world which God made. There IS variety in ALL things - including sex and sexuality and for good reasons. As long as people are of age and ability of consent and give that consent freely that is all that matters. And I hope that they each CARE about each other honestly and sincerely.

As for religion (and there are thousands) I have no regard or respect - THEY EARNED that viewpoint I have throughout their history and practices and dealings with human beings. Religion is nothing more than a person's desire to answer the unknown and it is not always done truthfully or accurately. I will never just blindly "believe" anything. Religion to me is nothing more than a form of paid brainwashing. If a person is told over and over and over and over again the same thing and those that are told "whatever" never check it out for themselves as to the validity and accuracy and truthfulness of what is told or postulated it takes on a life of its own and has absolutely nothing to do with honestly and accuracy - just plain brainwashing.

God gave me a brain and I utilize it to the very best of my ability respectfully for the gift it is from God. I question everything, everyone, all the time and consider ALL information from ALL sources. Just as no one person has all the answers neither does one book. There is a damn good reason why their are many sources to realize truthfulness and accuracy and it can be a lifelong persuit. You say I am "...a brick" - I REFUSE to "just accept" anything. Too many just FOLLOW what they are told and never utilize their own brain or what is available for all to learn. So if that makes me a "brick" then I consider that a compliment. I do not and WILL NEVER "just accept". I have an open mind and am very objective about all things. For damn good reason.

The books I suggested people read are SOME of what is available. Read them yourself and check out their sources yourself and keep reading and learn for yourself... If you care to honestly learn you will do that. If you care to just "accept" I guess that is what you will do. But taking the latter does not make you necessarily a well-rounded individual or one that will every learn anything.

The Bible is the word of men - over 40 and was written over a long period of time and each man has his reasons and viewpoints. If God has something to say HE WILL SAY IT HIMSELF. If Christ has something to say HE WILL SAY IT HIMSELF - They will not allow Man to speak FOR Them. I sure would NEVER allow someone to speak FOR me on something that was very important. I will speak FOR MYSELF. I stand completely by what I have said.

Take Care, John H.

 

[craig777]

Originally posted by John H.
Hi Pierzin. You are entitled to think what you want. I go by what actually IS true - God and Christ THEMSELVES NEVER SAID. Now people have SAID THEY SAID but given Man and religious leaders of the past, their history, etc. I believe God/Christ WILL SAY THEMSELVES what is important and NOT leave or trust Man to do that FOR Them. They KNOW man and his capability for unaccuracy and their viewpoint toward their fellow Man. When GOD says and when Christ SAYS THEMSELVES I will believe it and not one word other than THEIR WORD from THEIR MOUTH. God created nature and in nature there is Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality. Man is a part of that natural world which God made. There IS variety in ALL things - including sex and sexuality and for good reasons. As long as people are of age and ability of consent and give that consent freely that is all that matters. And I hope that they each CARE about each other honestly and sincerely.

As for religion (and there are thousands) I have no regard or respect - THEY EARNED that viewpoint I have throughout their history and practices and dealings with human beings. Religion is nothing more than a person's desire to answer the unknown and it is not always done truthfully or accurately. I will never just blindly "believe" anything. Religion to me is nothing more than a form of paid brainwashing. If a person is told over and over and over and over again the same thing and those that are told "whatever" never check it out for themselves as to the validity and accuracy and truthfulness of what is told or postulated it takes on a life of its own and has absolutely nothing to do with honestly and accuracy - just plain brainwashing.

God gave me a brain and I utilize it to the very best of my ability respectfully for the gift it is from God. I question everything, everyone, all the time and consider ALL information from ALL sources. Just as no one person has all the answers neither does one book. There is a damn good reason why their are many sources to realize truthfulness and accuracy and it can be a lifelong persuit. You say I am "...a brick" - I REFUSE to "just accept" anything. Too many just FOLLOW what they are told and never utilize their own brain or what is available for all to learn. So if that makes me a "brick" then I consider that a compliment. I do not and WILL NEVER "just accept". I have an open mind and am very objective about all things. For damn good reason.

The books I suggested people read are SOME of what is available. Read them yourself and check out their sources yourself and keep reading and learn for yourself... If you care to honestly learn you will do that. If you care to just "accept" I guess that is what you will do. But taking the latter does not make you necessarily a well-rounded individual or one that will every learn anything.

The Bible is the word of men - over 40 and was written over a long period of time and each man has his reasons and viewpoints. If God has something to say HE WILL SAY IT HIMSELF. If Christ has something to say HE WILL SAY IT HIMSELF - They will not allow Man to speak FOR Them. I sure would NEVER allow someone to speak FOR me on something that was very important. I will speak FOR MYSELF. I stand completely by what I have said.

Take Care, John H.

Hey John,

I will use your line of arguments. You say that God and Jesus never said anything about homosexuality because the Bible is a book written by men. You are using the Bible to prove your point, how do you know that God and Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, because no one wrote about it. They may have had a lot to say about it, but no one wrote about it in the Bible doesn't prove that the Lord doesn't have anything to say about it.

Why don't you just say that you are homosexual, you like being homosexual, you are going to continue being homosexual, and you are going to try to convince as many people as you can that it is a good thing.

Now if the Lord had condoned it then he would have made Adam and Adam and said now go be fruitful and multiply. Adam and Adam would have looked at each other and said but we can't.

If you want to be homosexual, then you go ahead, but stop bringing my Lord and my Savior into it.

 

[Pepper]

Originally posted by craig777
If you want to be homosexual, then you go ahead, but stop bringing my Lord and my Savior into it.

Very good post. That is basically my biggest problem with John H. He is free to do as he pleases, but his attempts to justify his actions using the Bible are ridiculous.

 

[tidalwaverus]

1st it???s 50% of men are gay and now it???s ok because the bible is all wrong.

Your wrong! Jesus said remember Lots wife. 3 words that to the Jews of that time meant a lot. Was this a warning? Ya think?

Why do think they called them Sodomites?

I would bet you have never read the bible (that actually means the complete book) Usually when someone reads a book they read the whole thing that way you can tell someone by explaining the ending. You are teaching the bible and it???s interpretation. What qualifies you to teach? I know for a fact you are clueless to understanding the book of revelations.

I???m sorry I???m talking like you are. But your insulting my Lord and GOD.

You talk like people that believe in GOD and Jesus are ignorant. You talk a good game but that is it.

What next are you going to explain bible prophecy too. Good luck


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-03-21-gaza-blasts_x.htm?csp=24

IMO

 

[kbm8795]

Whoa now...wait a minute....you know, I think John H. made it very clear in another thread that he is bisexual, and in posting this I already feel as if I'm intruding a bit on his right to privacy for pointing to that. He just relates information that he's gathered that has led him to conclude certain things about faith and life - and I don't find that offensive.

At the same time, I don't think anyone around here can claim "ownership" of a Lord and Savior - we each have our own personal and spiritual relationships with what we believe as a Creator or guiding force in our personal faith. Just because some people believe in one interpretation and it works for their own needs doesn't necessarily mean they have discovered the only path to spiritual fulfillment.

He does make one good point here - and that is how some people are determined to demand that their interpretations are correct, especially when they involve making other people suffer and have nothing to do with their own lives. When doing some interviews with several ministers a couple of weeks ago, I found it interesting that a couple of them referred to that religious tendancy and how it drives people AWAY from God and the church and how those who persecute others will pay for their own sins.

Again, I don't think any of us have a copyright on spiritual fulfillment; and I don't know a single person who has ever told me that they are a heterosexual because they read the Bible. If that were the case, and the popular interpretations related that homosexuality had heavenly blessing, would it truly be that easy for anyone to "convert"?

We are talking about a dozen verses out of ..gosh...like 30,000 or so..and many of them are in the Old Testament along with other practices that many religions do not follow. There is a lot of information that indicates applications varied over time - and it is well known that churches alter their teachings as a society changes.

So if some of us need to be reassured that we are all right by the teachings of one religious belief, that is our constitutional right - but it doesn't make God or Lord privy to your personal ownership or imposition on others. It means you have your own understanding of God that fits into a framework for comprehension of your life and the world around you.

If John H. wants to read extensively and uses the works of people who examine religious traditions and draws his own conclusions, then it's a sort of spiritual journey of his own. It doesn't make him less capable of discovering God just because it isn't following your directions.

In my opinion, Jesus didn't get crucified in order to encourage men to point fingers at each other in some kind of sinning pissing contest. It seems to me in John's estimation, he keeps bringing up the subject because there is so much persecution based on sexual orientation. In the end, it doesn't matter what any of the rest of us think about the subject unless it affects us personally or unless we can show some kind of compelling evidence that points to how it greatly harms society. And it doesn't matter what your minister says, your church says, or what you want to believe exists in those interpretations, since obviously they don't really apply to your lives either.

We might be better off if we considered the things that brought people like John to the point of exploring so much to find his own spiritual healing. And for those of us who think he has only done this to make himself feel better about who he was created to be, maybe we could learn a few things about how each of us might have contributed to the persecution of others, often without realizing our actions. Our first step might be to stop pretending we don't know what that persecution is all about.

 

[Stickboy]

KBM,

I think the main point is that John H. keeps saying that neither God nor Jesus said homosexuality is wrong when that is in fact false. I've posted references to both the old and new testament about this very fact.

He can do whatever he wants in life, after all it IS his life. While I feel that he is making incorrect choices, I don't have to answer to his sins, merely my own.

There is a reason why many of us feel his selective reading of the bible is flawed. He made a statement, it's been proven to be false, and he still claims it. Whatever lets you sleep at night, I guess.

 

[kbm8795]

Well, I think that "whatever makes you sleep at night" is one of the things that make many of us turn to certain religious beliefs - we aren't necessarily endowed with any greater universal knowledge of truth than anyone else.

In John H.'s own journey and search, he has found his own path to understanding God, and in doing so does not believe that words translated into language (which are symbols devised by Man) are directly stated by his Creator. Some of us might think his evalution is "false" based on what we have read or have been taught, but we are also kidding ourselves if we think we each read those dozen verses and sat down and prayed that, without those verses, we would have become bisexual or homosexual. We all know better than that.

So it's always very easy to tell someone else they are "incorrect" when it's something we feel like there is no danger of us becoming in our own lives. We know that Old Testament verses aren't necessarily applicable, since we largely ignore other guidance in that section. There are some churches that also believe that the letters of Paul are like reading one side of a transcript of a conversation and again, might have more of a cultural basis for interpretation at the time than a necessary application to modern society.

While I don't think that means it is wrong for someone to embrace those those passages as true, or to believe them if they choose, we have a responsibility to apply them to our own lives rather than as a judgement or expectation of others. This isn't about taking someone else's life, or about conducting idol worship, even if to some people anything outside of their own church's teachings would seem to constitute that.

The Quakers, for example, are usually automatically allowed conscientious objector status from the military draft, based on their interpretation of biblical scripture and their avoidance of violence. The Amish have used their religious beliefs to resist modernization and technology, opting to farm in a more primitive manner and avoid driving motorized vehicles or modern dress. Though some other religions might think their actions are "incorrect" we don't persecute them. In their eyes, WE might be the incorrect ones.

Perhaps in John H's relationship to his Creator, he is often reminded of I Cor 13, about not being conformed to this world, but being transformed by the renewal of his mind.

I think that our overemphasis of interpretation of a dozen bible verses to vilify an entire class of people is overly stated and suspect. We aren't talking about someone negating one of the Commandments here - though some churches curiously dwell on this subject with a vehemence that makes one think it is the worst offense anyone can commit. We know that isn't the case, and we also know that we've fed that persecution based more on our own feelings than biblical scripture. Maybe he is just trying to point out that it's possible that men have always done that.

 

[craig777]

KBM,

If you worshipped a God, would you say he was your God. Yes you would. So I can say that Jesus is my Lord and my Savior.

John is not open minded. He had almost 7,000 posts at Bodybuilding.com and guess what every single post was about. They banned him because every post is about trying to convert people. Ad nauseum as they put it. He doesn't post about anything else. He is the most closed minded person I have ever read that posts on forums.

John is on a personal mission to try to get as many people as he can to believe the way he does, and he will say anything he has to in order to convince you of that.

I have nothing against John and I wasn't going to post anything, but I do have something against him using the Lord and Jesus to prove his point, because he is wrong. Twisting it around to say that God never said anything because men wrote the Bible is a stupid argument, it really is I am sorry.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by kbm8795
Whoa now...wait a minute....you know, I think John H. made it very clear in another thread that he is bisexual, and in posting this I already feel as if I'm intruding a bit on his right to privacy for pointing to that. He just relates information that he's gathered that has led him to conclude certain things about faith and life - and I don't find that offensive.

At the same time, I don't think anyone around here can claim "ownership" of a Lord and Savior - we each have our own personal and spiritual relationships with what we believe as a Creator or guiding force in our personal faith. Just because some people believe in one interpretation and it works for their own needs doesn't necessarily mean they have discovered the only path to spiritual fulfillment.

He does make one good point here - and that is how some people are determined to demand that their interpretations are correct, especially when they involve making other people suffer and have nothing to do with their own lives. When doing some interviews with several ministers a couple of weeks ago, I found it interesting that a couple of them referred to that religious tendancy and how it drives people AWAY from God and the church and how those who persecute others will pay for their own sins.

Again, I don't think any of us have a copyright on spiritual fulfillment; and I don't know a single person who has ever told me that they are a heterosexual because they read the Bible. If that were the case, and the popular interpretations related that homosexuality had heavenly blessing, would it truly be that easy for anyone to "convert"?

We are talking about a dozen verses out of ..gosh...like 30,000 or so..and many of them are in the Old Testament along with other practices that many religions do not follow. There is a lot of information that indicates applications varied over time - and it is well known that churches alter their teachings as a society changes.

So if some of us need to be reassured that we are all right by the teachings of one religious belief, that is our constitutional right - but it doesn't make God or Lord privy to your personal ownership or imposition on others. It means you have your own understanding of God that fits into a framework for comprehension of your life and the world around you.

If John H. wants to read extensively and uses the works of people who examine religious traditions and draws his own conclusions, then it's a sort of spiritual journey of his own. It doesn't make him less capable of discovering God just because it isn't following your directions.

In my opinion, Jesus didn't get crucified in order to encourage men to point fingers at each other in some kind of sinning pissing contest. It seems to me in John's estimation, he keeps bringing up the subject because there is so much persecution based on sexual orientation. In the end, it doesn't matter what any of the rest of us think about the subject unless it affects us personally or unless we can show some kind of compelling evidence that points to how it greatly harms society. And it doesn't matter what your minister says, your church says, or what you want to believe exists in those interpretations, since obviously they don't really apply to your lives either.

We might be better off if we considered the things that brought people like John to the point of exploring so much to find his own spiritual healing. And for those of us who think he has only done this to make himself feel better about who he was created to be, maybe we could learn a few things about how each of us might have contributed to the persecution of others, often without realizing our actions. Our first step might be to stop pretending we don't know what that persecution is all about.

Hi Kbm. When people HONESTLY and ACCURATELY and COMPLETELY consider ALL information from ALL souces ALL the time - NEVER just one - and they do this with an open mind and very objectively that IS the very best way to learn. In life and living and in nature there is variety - variation in ALL things. Religion(s) many times are very guilty of misinformation, outright lying, misery, murder, killing, hatred, bigotry, etc. Studying their histories and past and present practices by someone with an open mind willing to open their eyes will see this to be absolutely true. There is SOME good but the WHOLE of the subject leaves a lot to be desired! And researching the past and the people of the past associated with religion(s) is no different. In the end it has absolutely NOTHING to do with God or Christ THEMSELVES but the existance and proliferation of a religious belief and the money, position and power of those religions. THAT IS FACT. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by craig777
KBM,

If you worshipped a God, would you say he was your God. Yes you would. So I can say that Jesus is my Lord and my Savior.

John is not open minded. He had almost 7,000 posts at Bodybuilding.com and guess what every single post was about. They banned him because every post is about trying to convert people. Ad nauseum as they put it. He doesn't post about anything else. He is the most closed minded person I have ever read that posts on forums.

John is on a personal mission to try to get as many people as he can to believe the way he does, and he will say anything he has to in order to convince you of that.

I have nothing against John and I wasn't going to post anything, but I do have something against him using the Lord and Jesus to prove his point, because he is wrong. Twisting it around to say that God never said anything because men wrote the Bible is a stupid argument, it really is I am sorry.

Hi Craig. You MISSED the point of all of my posts WHICH IS: UTILIZE the brain God gave each of us and have or develop an open mind and be very objective about all things and consider ALL information from ALL souces. WHO you are CAN NOT be changed. You ARE who you are as BORN. I NEVER have tried to "change" anyone because AS BORN that CAN NOT HAPPEN! Also I have posted on many subjects NOT just about Sexuality. Sexuality being a topic of current discussion requires that if there is ANY UNDERSTANDING that is accurate, honest, and complete you MUST be willing to look at ALL SIDES of the topic OBJECTIVELY! THAT is ALL I ASKED people to do.

As for the Lord/God and Christ: THEY THEMSELVES NEVER SAID THEMSELVES ONE WORD so MAN can NOT change THAT FACT. He CAN say anything he wants and SAY someone said but that DOES NOT CHANGE the FACT THEY NEVER SAID EVER ONE WORD. PERIOD. You can NOT sugar coat the facts and be credible. Christ was on this earth we are told for 32 YEARS - He NEVER - HIMSELF - said ONE WORD EVER - PERIOD!

As for www.bodybuilding.com I feel I was banned (and I was not even told I was banned or why which shows immaturity) because I utilized their "Forum" to discuss openly any subject which I feel anyone was INVITED to do and apparently the "Forum" is ONLY for certain people who agree with those that own that Board and no one else so I would NOT call that a place for any real honest accurate discussion and therefore certainly NOT a "Forum".

You say I am using the Lord / God and Christ. How so? I simply said THEY NEVER SAID and THEY NEVER SAID. You can not get more accurate than that - THEY NEVER SAID THEMSELVES. And the Bible WAS writtten by Men - over 40 and over a long period of time. The New Testament was not even written until hundreds of years AFTER the death of Christ and ONLY because there was discussion about Christ but nothing was written so MEN decided to begin writing the New Testament. The Old Testament is nothing more then the old Jewish law books. Those are FACTS. It is not my intention to upset anyone. But beliefs should and must be grounded in FACT whenever possible and whenever facts are ignored or dismissed you then begin believing things that are NOT true at all. Religion(s) are guilty of that. I am twisting nothing. I am making statements of facts - period. Check it out for yourself with an open mind and objectively and you will see I am speaking truthfully and accurately. Utilizing the brain God gave each of us is not sinful nor is it wrong to do so honestly. There was a time when religions would put a person to death just for reading the Bible - it was declared that ONLY the religious higher-ups could read the Bible and anyone else had to ask them waht it had to say and they would then be TOLD - to do otherwise you would be put to death. THAT is NOT something God/Christ would have anything to do with EVER. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by craig777
KBM,

If you worshipped a God, would you say he was your God. Yes you would. So I can say that Jesus is my Lord and my Savior.

John is not open minded. He had almost 7,000 posts at Bodybuilding.com and guess what every single post was about. They banned him because every post is about trying to convert people. Ad nauseum as they put it. He doesn't post about anything else. He is the most closed minded person I have ever read that posts on forums.

John is on a personal mission to try to get as many people as he can to believe the way he does, and he will say anything he has to in order to convince you of that.

I have nothing against John and I wasn't going to post anything, but I do have something against him using the Lord and Jesus to prove his point, because he is wrong. Twisting it around to say that God never said anything because men wrote the Bible is a stupid argument, it really is I am sorry.

Hi Craig. I answered this above. Hey Buddy, is that a picture of YOU? DAMN you are looking ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!!!! KEEP GOING!!!! WOW what you ARE ACCOMPLISHING!!!!!! What INCREDIBLE MUSCLE AND BEAUTY in a MAN!!!!!! NEVER stop your journey for TOTAL HEALTH!!!!! TDGC, John H.

 

[craig777]

Originally posted by John H.
Hi Craig. You MISSED the point of all of my posts WHICH IS: UTILIZE the brain God gave each of us and have or develop an open mind and be very objective about all things and consider ALL information from ALL souces. WHO you are CAN NOT be changed. You ARE who you are as BORN. I NEVER have tried to "change" anyone because AS BORN that CAN NOT HAPPEN! Also I have posted on many subjects NOT just about Sexuality. Sexuality being a topic of current discussion requires that if there is ANY UNDERSTANDING that is accurate, honest, and complete you MUST be willing to look at ALL SIDES of the topic OBJECTIVELY! THAT is ALL I ASKED people to do.

As for the Lord/God and Christ: THEY THEMSELVES NEVER SAID THEMSELVES ONE WORD so MAN can NOT change THAT FACT. He CAN say anything he wants and SAY someone said but that DOES NOT CHANGE the FACT THEY NEVER SAID EVER ONE WORD. PERIOD. You can NOT sugar coat the facts and be credible. Christ was on this earth we are told for 32 YEARS - He NEVER - HIMSELF - said ONE WORD EVER - PERIOD!

As for www.bodybuilding.com I feel I was banned (and I was not even told I was banned or why which shows immaturity) because I utilized their "Forum" to discuss openly any subject which I feel anyone was INVITED to do and apparently the "Forum" is ONLY for certain people who agree with those that own that Board and no one else so I would NOT call that a place for any real honest accurate discussion and therefore certainly NOT a "Forum".

You say I am using the Lord / God and Christ. How so? I simply said THEY NEVER SAID and THEY NEVER SAID. You can not get more accurate than that - THEY NEVER SAID THEMSELVES. And the Bible WAS writtten by Men - over 40 and over a long period of time. The New Testament was not even written until hundreds of years AFTER the death of Christ and ONLY because there was discussion about Christ but nothing was written so MEN decided to begin writing the New Testament. The Old Testament is nothing more then the old Jewish law books. Those are FACTS. It is not my intention to upset anyone. But beliefs should and must be grounded in FACT whenever possible and whenever facts are ignored or dismissed you then begin believing things that are NOT true at all. Religion(s) are guilty of that. I am twisting nothing. I am making statements of facts - period. Check it out for yourself with an open mind and objectively and you will see I am speaking truthfully and accurately. Utilizing the brain God gave each of us is not sinful nor is it wrong to do so honestly. There was a time when religions would put a person to death just for reading the Bible - it was declared that ONLY the religious higher-ups could read the Bible and anyone else had to ask them waht it had to say and they would then be TOLD - to do otherwise you would be put to death. THAT is NOT something God/Christ would have anything to do with EVER. Take Care, John H.

John,

Where you there with Christ.

I will give you the answer John. "No I wasn't there"

Do you in fact know that he never said anything about homosexuality.

Again I will give you the answer. "No I don't know that since I wasn't there"

Are you using the Bible, which you say was written by men, to prove your point.

I will answer again. "Yes I am using circular logic to try to prove my point in denouncing the Bible, but yet using it to prove my point"

Are these all your opinions John.

Once again "Yes these are all my opinions"

 

[John H.]

I wish I could remember where (I do read a lot and also learn from other sources as well) but I remember this religious leader (current man) saying in a book he wrote (I believe it was on the Humor of Christ) that the New Testament was supposed to supplant the Old Testament. I´ll have to try to find this book again and see. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by craig777
John,

Where you there with Christ.

I will give you the answer John. "No I wasn't there"

Do you in fact know that he never said anything about homosexuality.

Again I will give you the answer. "No I don't know that since I wasn't there"

Are you using the Bible, which you say was written by men, to prove your point.

I will answer again. "Yes I am using circular logic to try to prove my point in denouncing the Bible, but yet using it to prove my point"

Are these all your opinions John.

Once again "Yes these are all my opinions"

Hi Craig. If people USE the Bible to SAY that Christ/God SAID and HE NEVER ACTUALLY DID then I am right to go to THEIR SOURCE which in this case is the Bible and state HONESTLY AND ACCURATELY THEY NEVER SAID THEMSELVES. Man SAYS this or that but you do NOT see anywhere where God or Christ THEMSELVES EVER SAID. Those are not opinions but facts. See what I am stating? Take Care, John H.

 

[craig777]

Originally posted by John H.
Hi Craig. If people USE the Bible to SAY that Christ/God SAID and HE NEVER ACTUALLY DID then I am right to go to THEIR SOURCE which in this case is the Bible and state HONESTLY AND ACCURATELY THEY NEVER SAID THEMSELVES. Man SAYS this or that but you do NOT see anywhere where God or Christ THEMSELVES EVER SAID. Those are not opinions but facts. See what I am stating? Take Care, John H.

No John I don't, you weren't there so you don't know it to be fact. Using the Bible to prove your point doesn't prove anything. All it proves is no one ever wrote about it. I am going to use your circular logic.

and John I hate to tell you and I already did, but you are not opened minded. Not by a long shot.

I am more than willing to say I believe what I believe whether you agree with what I believe or not.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by craig777
No John I don't, you weren't there so you don't know it to be fact. Using the Bible to prove your point doesn't prove anything. All it proves is no one ever wrote about it. I am going to use your circular logic.

and John I hate to tell you and I already did, but you are not opened minded. Not by a long shot.

I am more than willing to say I believe what I believe whether you agree with what I believe or not.

Hi Craig.You are right, I was not there and most of what is written is written by people who were not there actually. The New Testament was written several hundred years after the Death of Christ for example. If people can utilize the Bible to "justify" what they are saying or quoting and it was written by over 40 different people I certainly can question its authenticity and accuracy and I would think God Himself would want me to do that utilizing the brain He gave me - that IS how anyone really finds truth and accuracy - question everything and everyone, utilize all sources for all information. In life and living there are limitless sources for learning and learning all things. To just consider one source is very wrong no matter the subject. That is why I say to consider all all the time. And be very open minded and objective. That is what I am speaking to. That is why I suggested people read the books I posted above as a way of beginning to understand even if someone does not necessarily accept. The road to learning is through learning and understanding. We all have our beliefs and feelings about whatever but they should and must be based on as much information that is accurate and honest as possible. Anyone is free to suggest even more than what I posted here as a way of learning from alll viewpoints. I utilized these books as a way for others to get some answers to one of the questions of the day. A question that has been clouded in misinformation, ignorance, bigotry, hatred, etc. and lacking any real understanding or accurate knowledge.

If a person utilizes the Bible as a way of trying to prove me wrong about something I can certainly utilize that same Bible to show that I am right. And/or other sources as well. That is how we all get to the "bottom"of any subject...

On another note, is that a photo of you under your name? If so, we can at least AGREE that Bodybuilding is doing you a TREMENDOUS AND VERY BEAUTIFUL service and that you are learning VERY WELL!!!! I sincerely hope you will always stay with it and always gain the total health it helps you have...

And I hope we will always be able to talk about anything and see if we can not learn from that discussion together. TDGC, John H.

 

[Pierzin]

Hi Burner,

I'm fine thanks. No more crime drama! But my internet connection sucks!

 

[Burner02]

Ya know, this is funny..for lack of a better word.
This is the 2nd thread that is more or less the same. One person is saying his opinion on being gay.
John, with all do respect, or you do, or you don't. That bisexuality...whatever.
You have your opinion.
( I heard a quote from Dennis Miller about bisexuals which I think is hilarious, but will refrain, I'd hat eto ofend anyone)

Then the Christians are going to rebuttle each and every statement you make. You may have made some good points. I am not about to go back thru both threads to find out. They both say the same.
You sir, are repeatig the same thing, over and over. Essentially, you are talking to a wall. I am not saying that we are ignorant, I am just saying that overall, we don't care.
If you are going to 'swing on that side of the fence' as it were, why are you always trying to get our approval? You do post (intelligently I might add) in other subjects, but you seem to dwell on this subject. Just my .02 worth.

 

[Stickboy]

Originally posted by Burner02
You sir, are repeatig the same thing, over and over. Essentially, you are talking to a wall. I am not saying that we are ignorant, I am just saying that overall, we don't care.
If you are going to 'swing on that side of the fence' as it were, why are you always trying to get our approval? You do post (intelligently I might add) in other subjects, but you seem to dwell on this subject. Just my .02 worth.

I agree. Very well said, Burner.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by Burner02
Ya know, this is funny..for lack of a better word.
This is the 2nd thread that is more or less the same. One person is saying his opinion on being gay.
John, with all do respect, or you do, or you don't. That bisexuality...whatever.
You have your opinion.
( I heard a quote from Dennis Miller about bisexuals which I think is hilarious, but will refrain, I'd hat eto ofend anyone)

Then the Christians are going to rebuttle each and every statement you make. You may have made some good points. I am not about to go back thru both threads to find out. They both say the same.
You sir, are repeatig the same thing, over and over. Essentially, you are talking to a wall. I am not saying that we are ignorant, I am just saying that overall, we don't care.
If you are going to 'swing on that side of the fence' as it were, why are you always trying to get our approval? You do post (intelligently I might add) in other subjects, but you seem to dwell on this subject. Just my .02 worth.

Hi Burner. I am not trying to get anyone's "approval" at all. I am discussing a topic that is being talked about today and adding information I have seen and am sharing that with others.

As for caring or not, if everyone takes that attitude that they do not care then I guess we all are in trouble because anyone can say the same thing about whatever others care about as well in other areas and then be told no one cares. That kind of thinking leads to apathy and a dead end. Perhaps that is where this country is headed - no one cares - UNLESS it is something THEY are interested in.... What if I said I did not care about my neighbors and their having difficulties of some kind? (I guess this is happening more and more today - people are becoming much more self-centered)...

I am speaking to the facts of Sexuality as THEY ARE as Nature created them. I do that to give a balanced and open discussion of the subject for the betterment and understanding of all others. The more we learn the better off we all are. Civilization(?) can place all the restraints and laws and whatever on that in an effort to control but when you are speaking about the FACTS of the subject you must be honest (meaning anyone here) in order to UNDERSTAND accurately and completely and honestly. To do otherwise is lying and eventually it comes back to haunt us all. Look at the misery throughout history that has been CREATED with regard to Sexuality BECAUSE people are led to believe and are TOLD it is a taboo subject UNSTEAD of looking at it with an open mind and objectively and learning HONESTLY and ACCURATELY about it and what it all means and its purpose....

In Nature and the Natural World there is variety in ALL things - variation. Including Sexuality. We as human beings are a part of that Natural World whether we like it or not and if we learn from that world instead of fighting it or trying to create a world that will never exist and never has the better off we all will be.

As for repeating myself, I certainly do not like to do that at all. If someone asks a question or makes a comment I answer that. Sometimes it requires that I repeat myself on something I have already said. I do not assume someone has seen or read or understood what I have said but answer posts as they are written and as those words require a response. Sometimes I find people do not or can not read as well. Here is an example: Christ NEVER said. God NEVER said. THEMSELVES. And They NEVER did. That is pretty straightforeword and to the point. And it is a FACT. I know people like to THINK They said but the FACT is they are quoting Man not God or Christ with regard to Sexuality and what Man has said.

We all have our thoughts and opinions and ... Each of us speaks here on this and other Boards.

Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Here's the thing. How many people actually have read and understood about Sexuality in all its aspects. With an open mind and objectively. I am not saying all have to agree on anything necessarily but how many actually KNOW anything about Sexuality honestly and accurately speaking. I am not speaking about JUST what we learn from the street or what we are told but how many actually make the effort to UNDERSTAND AND KNOW accurately and completely?

Sexuality is a BASIC subject that affects ALL people throughout their entire lives. Whether someone lives that life and enjoys and respects and shares that life with others in a positive way depends on each of us and how much we actually know or think we know and how much we actually make an effort to UNDERSTAND accurately.

In the end it will determine whether we actually live happily and healthy and sanely or not.

Take Care, John H.

 

[craig777]

Originally posted by John H.
Christ NEVER said. God NEVER said. THEMSELVES. And They NEVER did. That is pretty straightforeword and to the point. And it is a FACT. I know people like to THINK They said but the FACT is they are quoting Man not God or Christ with regard to Sexuality and what Man has said.

John,

How does the Bible being written by men prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God and Jesus never said anything. How in the world does that prove anything. Your logic is bewildering. Alright the Bible was written by men, how in the world does that prove anything except that you do not believe the Bible.

 

[craig777]

Originally posted by John H.
Here's the thing. How many people actually have read and understood about Sexuality in all its aspects. With an open mind and objectively. I am not saying all have to agree on anything necessarily but how many actually KNOW anything about Sexuality honestly and accurately speaking. I am not speaking about JUST what we learn from the street or what we are told but how many actually make the effort to UNDERSTAND AND KNOW accurately and completely?

Sexuality is a BASIC subject that affects ALL people throughout their entire lives. Whether someone lives that life and enjoys and respects and shares that life with others in a positive way depends on each of us and how much we actually know or think we know and how much we actually make an effort to UNDERSTAND accurately.

In the end it will determine whether we actually live happily and healthy and sanely or not.

Take Care, John H.

Not you, that's for sure

You read books that say what you like to hear, and denounce the books that say what you don't want to hear.

 

[craig777]

John,

I believe what I believe, I believe the Bible is inspired by God and tells us exactly how to live our lives. I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and everything sexual within a marriage is considered good by God. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, not that I will treat them any differently than any one else, but it is still a sin. I believe all this to be true and factual.

Now you come and tell me that you and only you has the correct information and mine is all wrong because you are knowledgeable and open minded.

Well John I hate to tell you but I think you are very misguided and I will pray for you.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by craig777
John,

How does the Bible being written by men prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God and Jesus never said anything. How in the world does that prove anything. Your logic is bewildering. Alright the Bible was written by men, how in the world does that prove anything except that you do not believe the Bible.

Hi Craig. People like to "quote the Bible" and say that it is all inclusive. I am saying that God NEVER said and Christ NEVER said THEMSELVES. The Bible they quote is written by Men. Not God, not Christ. Christ we are told was on this earth for 32 years and in all that time HE NEVER SAID ONE WORD HIMSELF. If someone needed saying HE HIMSELF WOULD HAVE SAID HIMSELF - HE NEVER DID. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by craig777
Not you, that's for sure

You read books that say what you like to hear, and denounce the books that say what you don't want to hear.

Hi Craig. Not true. I have read books from all viewpoints on this subject. Believe me! I do not just read books that say what I like to hear at all. Take Care, John H.

 

[John H.]

Originally posted by craig777
John,

I believe what I believe, I believe the Bible is inspired by God and tells us exactly how to live our lives. I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and everything sexual within a marriage is considered good by God. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, not that I will treat them any differently than any one else, but it is still a sin. I believe all this to be true and factual.

Now you come and tell me that you and only you has the correct information and mine is all wrong because you are knowledgeable and open minded.

Well John I hate to tell you but I think you are very misguided and I will pray for you.

Hi Craig. That Bible you quote, may I ask how much does it have to say about the rich? How many times are the rich condemned by "Christians" on the same par as those that condemn Homosexuality for example. The Bible is FULL of examples of the rich yet very little is ever said regarding that subject at all - I guess religions like the money just as much as the rich.... I am NOT trying to show any disrespect here by saying that ONLY that many times religious people seem to just pick and choose ... Christ we are told spent a lot of time discussing the rich... Christ NEVER said Homosexuality is a sin.

I do not know it all and never said it did and never would Craig. Learning is life long for everyone.

In my research this is something I have found: religions have fought each other over who's was right and who's was wrong and who's God was the "true god" and who's was not. To the point of killing each other. In that fighting Men were lost through death by this fighting. In order for others to be born and take up the cause, Men would have to have sexual relations with a Female. The prohibition against Homosexuality and / or BiSexuality stems from this need for more people to be born to fight the fight and NOT from God/Christ's prohibition. In Nature and the Natural World Heterosexuality, BiSexuality and Homosexuality do exist and always have. We are a part of that natural world.

Take Care, John H.

 

[Rocco32]

Originally posted by craig777
John,

I believe what I believe, I believe the Bible is inspired by God and tells us exactly how to live our lives. I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, and everything sexual within a marriage is considered good by God. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, not that I will treat them any differently than any one else, but it is still a sin. I believe all this to be true and factual.

Now you come and tell me that you and only you has the correct information and mine is all wrong because you are knowledgeable and open minded.

Well John I hate to tell you but I think you are very misguided and I will pray for you.

I think that is a very good post Craig!

And I don't see where this thread is going anymore. The same things just keep getting said over and over. We can't expect people who have not accepted the spirit into their lives to truly understand the Bible because the spirit give understanding while those without walk around blind and try to get through life with false, self-given intelligence.

 

[craig777]

Originally posted by rock4832
I think that is a very good post Craig!

And I don't see where this thread is going anymore. The same things just keep getting said over and over. We can't expect people who have not accepted the spirit into their lives to truly understand the Bible because the spirit give understanding while those without walk around blind and try to get through life with false, self-given intelligence.

Thank you, and I agree with what you said whole heartedly.

 

[Burner02]

Originally posted by rock4832
I think that is a very good post Craig!

And I don't see where this thread is going anymore. The same things just keep getting said over and over..

Exactly. What I have said.
John, bud-
is this debate on gawd know whetever thread you are posting on ever going to stop? Seriously. just a friendly question. All points have been made now, for about the third time.
I wouldn't want to speak for all embers here, but it seems that you have as much chance on getting the hetrosexual members here to say that being gay is a wonderful and accepted way of life as pushing a snow ball up a mountain in the middle of the desert.
I've read your posts. You make some good points. I am a tolerant person, I like to believe.
You have your views on what the bible says, others have theirs. No one will really know the answers until you meet the maker.
I just think this subject has been exhausted on all levels.
just my .02 worth.
not 'hating' but don't think this topic goes anywhere. ever. that as been proved over and over again on this forum.