overtraining on purpose what do you think

[ballerina]

is it possible to shrink leg muscles by overtraining them? For example, if one was to train legs moderately 3-4 times per week and do cardio/stairs after would they shrink. I notice that long distance runners have little bulkiness in their legs. Maybe lots of running would help? My legs are starting to get too muscular but my trainer says it takes time. any opinions...not that i don't like muscles but my legs look like turnips...you know the outer sweep thing is more than i would like to have Thanks

 

[aztecwolf]

muscular legs, that's not fair, i train hard and i got twigs for legs

It also has a lot to do with genetics, i see this guy at the gym everyday running 8 or so miles on the treadmill with no weight training for legs and he has massive muscular development in the legs, while i have cut down my running and bumbed up my leg routine and still see very little gain

 

[Liftzor]

Training legs more then twice a week is bad. Overtraining in anything is not good at all. I have noticed that when I started to workout my legs twice a week. I put on some muscle.

 

[Johnnny]

ballerina I would just stick to training your legs once a week & you won't be over training them.

As for your legs getting to bulky, you maybe using too heavy weights if bulk is obviously what you don't want.

Try lowering the weight & increasing your repititions.

 

[Liftzor]

yup yup yup

Rep Range for bulk = 10-8 never lower then 4
Rep Range for tone = 15-10 or go higher if you want, never go beyond 20 reps though

 

[gr81]

Before I get to my point, it is obvious that I have to educate some of the cats in here. FIRST OF ALL, take the idiotic word tone, and forget it, toss it out the fuccin window for christs sake and never use it again. The notion that a certain rep range tones while another bulks is absolutely ridiculous and completely untrue. Whoever thinks this is so needs to crack open a book before they crack open their mouth. The phrase toning is just another way of saying a person has a lower bodyfat which equates to being able to see more muscularity without that layer of fat over it, which requires a period of time spent cutting bodyfat. Building muscle is building muscle, and hypertrophy is hypertrophy. the muscles are being recruited no matter what. You will not get slimmer muscles are opposed to bulkier muscle bellies according to your rep range. Rep range is a factor by way of what type of muscle fiber is recruited, whether it is a fast twitch fiber or slow twitch fibers. If you do not want to build skeletal muscle, then do not weight train. training with light weight for high reps is a waste of time. The reason you will not gain muscle mass when operating with that attitude is NOT b/c you are toning, it is b/c yo are not showing your body the resistance and intensity it needs to grow basically. Gaining muscle mass and losing body fat are two seperate functions that are performed SEPERATELY. one requires an influx of calories and teh other requires a deficit in calories so get those stupid notions out of your head. Pick one and go with it. a person who is bodybuilding and a person who is just a person lookin to get fit are engaging in the same process, the only difference is the intensity level and amount of time spent with diet and other aspects of dedication required. Besides that, building muscle is building muscle. Increasing the reps and lowering the weight is a waste of time. If you want to be leaner, then cut the fat. thats it.

Now, long distance runners are skinny b/c their cortisol levels are through the roof and their test levels are waaayy down, and their bodies are in catabolic mode all the time pretty much. I wouldn't advise trying to lose muscle mass in a specific spot b/c that means you would have to have a deficit in cals which means catabolism everywhere. Instead why don't you just start to prioritize the bodyparts you find are lagging and go after it with that approach. Besides I seriously doubt you are getting too big. What are your goals anyways?

 

[atherjen]

thank you gr81!!!! I was about to go on a speel when I saw that "tone" word

Liftzor- anything beyond 12reps is burely for endurance purposes.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by gr81
Before I get to my point, it is obvious that I have to educate some of the cats in here. FIRST OF ALL, take the idiotic word tone, and forget it, toss it out the fuccin window for christs sake and never use it again. The notion that a certain rep range tones while another bulks is absolutely ridiculous and completely untrue. Whoever thinks this is so needs to crack open a book before they crack open their mouth. The phrase toning is just another way of saying a person has a lower bodyfat which equates to being able to see more muscularity without that layer of fat over it, which requires a period of time spent cutting bodyfat. Building muscle is building muscle, and hypertrophy is hypertrophy. the muscles are being recruited no matter what. You will not get slimmer muscles are opposed to bulkier muscle bellies according to your rep range. Rep range is a factor by way of what type of muscle fiber is recruited, whether it is a fast twitch fiber or slow twitch fibers.

I am in full agreement so far.

If you do not want to build skeletal muscle, then do not weight train. training with light weight for high reps is a waste of time.

This is untrue, and is spoken from a narrow-minded perspective. There are reasons why one might want to train in a higher rep range. For example, a higher rep range will build muscle over not training at all, and it will burn many calories. Its ideal, for example, for one who circuit trains for health and leanness.

And its even useful from time to time for true "bodybuilders" for its phsiological effects on muscle tissue, as well as for creating a state of glycogen depletion.

The reason you will not gain muscle mass when operating with that attitude is NOT b/c you are toning, it is b/c yo are not showing your body the resistance and intensity it needs to grow basically.

While this may be true, its wholly unrelated to the original posters goal, namely to shrink her quad muscle.

Gaining muscle mass and losing body fat are two seperate functions that are performed SEPERATELY. one requires an influx of calories and teh other requires a deficit in calories so get those stupid notions out of your head.

Also a very narrow minded opinion. One can be in a caloric deficit and still build muscle by liberating energy stores (fat) and through nutrient partitioning.

Its just easier to do one or the other, than both concurrantly. But not impossible.

Pick one and go with it. a person who is bodybuilding and a person who is just a person lookin to get fit are engaging in the same process, the only difference is the intensity level and amount of time spent with diet and other aspects of dedication required. Besides that, building muscle is building muscle. Increasing the reps and lowering the weight is a waste of time. If you want to be leaner, then cut the fat. thats it.

But she was asking about how to be leaner, rather he to have less muscular thighs.

Now, long distance runners are skinny b/c their cortisol levels are through the roof and their test levels are waaayy down, and their bodies are in catabolic mode all the time pretty much. I wouldn't advise trying to lose muscle mass in a specific spot b/c that means you would have to have a deficit in cals which means catabolism everywhere. Instead why don't you just start to prioritize the bodyparts you find are lagging and go after it with that approach. Besides I seriously doubt you are getting too big. What are your goals anyways?

To address the original poster, your plan is a bad idea. Rather than seek to overtrain, you should undertrain. That is, if you are lifting legs twice per week and they are too muscular, train than once per week. If once, train then every other week.

In other words, don't change your routine, but rather change your frequency so that you don't continue to build and perhaps loss some mass.

In addition, if you want leaner legs, well then, you'll have to loss the fat.

 

[Johnnny]

ballerina this girl seems to want more tone, shape, leanness, definition whatever all the same. She wants this more than bulk.
Let's not forget that the person who started this thread is a girl or woman. Let's not forget that for the majority of the population, most women to have a lean & shaped body, not a big, bulky muscled body. So therefore the majority of the women train differently the men as men are looking for more mass most of the time.

From what I understand she is saying that she wants her legs to not be as big or bulky.
Ballerina

is it possible to shrink leg muscles by overtraining them?

Right there she cleary is stating she wants to make her legs more slender & shaped.

My legs are starting to get too muscular

Again she is clearly stating she does want big muscular legs.

A few years ago I spoke to a girlfriend of mine at the time personal trainer who is a woman. She stated that the majority of women don't want too much muscle mass, more shape & definition, unless they're training for the Ms.Olympia or a heavy weight bodybuilding show.

Therefore women looking for shape & definition & a slender body shouldn't be using the heavy weight, 4-6 rep scheme. Following a good diet & increasing the reps & lowering the weight for many women will build a long, lean slender body.

Plus women looking for this goal shouldn't be eating high calories or high fat's but not cutting fat's from their diet completely. Fats such as Flaxseed oil & other EFA's like Fish oil, Salmon Oil for one containing one EFA Omega 3 shouldn't be ignored.

These fats help the body to release fatty acids from the body & are very healthy.

 

[Novo]

Johnny, seriously - you have to stop this crap. Everyone has had a good laugh throughout many of the threads you've started, and that's fine. But when you pass uninformed comment on a thread started by someone asking for educated and experienced opinion, that's quite different.

What you are saying about women "looking for shape and definition .. shouldn't be using heavy weights, low reps .... but lower weights and increased reps" is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. And it's dangerous - becuase newbies on here don't know who is offereing good advice (Ballerine, Twin Peak is very experienced), and who is talking shit.

 

[plouffe]

Alot of women actually do that. I forget what its called, like woman that compete in figure competitions and stuff. Search it on bodybuilding.com.

 

[Johnnny]

Novo you are an ahole who doesn't know wtf he is talking about.
Personally I think you are the one who's talking sh!t. I know what I'm talking about as I've trained more than a few women who've achieved their goals of a leaner, more defined, slender body.

I will not stop giving the truth. Just how many women do you know want to look like Kim Chisevsky or Nicole Bass or China? Not many I bet. If women train like a man, they will develop bulky muslces just like a man plain & simple.

[qoute]Everyone has had a good laugh throughout many of the threads you've started, and that's fine [/quote]
You exaggerate, it's only been a couple of threads & most of the crap that comes up is started by ppl like you.

So let me get this straight, say you get a female client who's looking to get leaner & more defined & slender. She does not want big thick leg muscles, a wide thick back, or thick shoulders & arms. Just good definition being lean.

I getting the impression since you disagree with me, that you'd put her on a program doing heavy weights & 4-6 reps & a diet that goes along with it. After a couple of months she's noticing that she's not getting the lean, defined, slender body she wants.
Then she gets mad at you & asks wtf is going on? & says instead of the lean, defined, slender body I want, you've given me big, buldging, bulky muscles?

Then what? You will have to change her diet & training plan. If you give a woman the heavy weight, low rep scheme, you're going to cause her to get big & bulky. Most women don't want that. The several women I've trained all got results training the way I made them in the above replies with higher reps, lighter weights, more cardio after the weights, & a low to moderate calorie intake diet. Plus EFA's such as Flax seed oil & Salmon oil.

Like I said I reading up on all of this for my certification course.

Even I depending on what I want change my workouts to higher reps & somewhat lighter weights & it works wonders for getting lean.

Novo you obviously don't know anything or what you're talking about or you would've added some real helpful information to help this girl out. Instead you chose to attack me which is clear that's all you came here to do.

Just accept the fact that you're dealing with someone who's been in the game for 10yrs & has gotten extensive advice from many other male & female trainers, & bodybuilders natural & on drugs. Not to mention I'm reading books for my certification course.

I even read this same information in one of Arnolds articles in a book. I think he knows what he's talking about. By saying you don't think I know what I'm talking about, you are also saying Arnold doesn't know what he's talking about as I've read his encyclopedia a few yrs ago & other books containing his personal information.

So either add some useful information or shut your immature mouth.

 

[tucker01]

Actually Novo is a Chick

And I was always of the mentality eat big to be big

 

[Johnnny]

IainDaniel well it's hard to tell as she seems to promote training like a man for women.

I guess she's training for Ms. Olympia or something. Most women I've worked with don't want to look this way as I've stated above.
So they have to train somewhat differently then men.

& the majority of the women I see training at the gym don't use heavy weights or low reps. They use high reps with lighter weights & focus on cardio much more. I over hear many of them talking about their diets & most of them eat at most 4-5 times a day with not an over amount of calories.

So are all of these women wrong on what they are doing? I don't think so as they look pretty damn good so they're achieving their goals from training this way.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by Johnnny
IainDaniel well it's hard to tell as she seems to promote training like a man for women.

I guess she's training for Ms. Olympia or something. Most women I've worked with don't want to look this way as I've stated above.
So they have to train somewhat differently then men.

& the majority of the women I see training at the gym don't use heavy weights or low reps. They use high reps with lighter weights & focus on cardio much more. I over hear many of them talking about their diets & most of them eat at most 4-5 times a day with not an over amount of calories.

So are all of these women wrong on what they are doing? I don't think so as they look pretty damn good so they're achieving their goals from training this way.

Let's break down the sexist barriers, contrived walls, and learn a tad about physiology while were are at.

There is no such thing as "training like a man" or "training like a woman." You can't make your muscle "slender" or "toned" by the way you work out. Reread Gr81's post above, and my clarifications of it.

Let's get a few things straight, and drop the ad hominem talk about "reading for your certificate". Whoop-d-do.

1) You either build muscle, or do not build muscle, period.

2) There are optimal ways to build muscle, and there are less optimal ways. Admittedly, what each person responds to (in terms of stimulus, level of intensity, volume, frequency, etc.) varies.

3) You create muscle "definition" or "tone" (or lack thereof) by (1) increase muscle mass, and (2) decreasing bodyfat. The way you train has nothing to do with this, except to the limited and secondary extent that it burns calories.

Now, if you grasp all of the above, you will soon recognize that you don't train differently based on your sex, you train to (a) increase muscle, or not, and (b) to loss fat, or not.

I'd also like to touch briefly on your misguided notion that men and women will respond the same to the same workouts. They don't. First, men will not build the muscle of Kim Chichefsky. That is the result of super genetics, hard-work and years of doing so, and extraordinary amounts of anabilic steroids. Natural males do not have the capacity to build that much muscle. Natural females even less so.

My point -- VERY VERY VERY few people have the ability to get "too big." Women simply do not have the hormonal profile to do so. Rather, the fears of getting "too big" are overblow do to propogations of misinformation, such as you are doing here.

 

[nikegurl]

Originally posted by Twin Peak
My point -- VERY VERY VERY few people have the ability to get "too big." Women simply do not have the hormonal profile to do so. Rather, the fears of getting "too big" are overblow do to propogations of misinformation, such as you are doing here.

AMEN! Johnny - it's one thing to have your opinions but its another to tell people completely false information when they come here looking for help.

"better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

 

[austinite]

Originally posted by Twin Peak

One can be in a caloric deficit and still build muscle by liberating energy stores (fat) and through nutrient partitioning.

Its just easier to do one or the other, than both concurrantly. But not impossible.

Twin Peak this is an excellent post. GR8 sounds knowledgeable but she must realize that there are few absolutes in fitness training. Everyone has a different body and genes, I have known many who managed to burn fat while building muscle, although it is not easy. As a matter-of-fact, weight training is a fat-burning endeavor in and of itself.

GR81 could also learn from you about the use of paragraphs.

 

[CourtQueen]

Originally posted by Twin Peak
My point -- VERY VERY VERY few people have the ability to get "too big." Women simply do not have the hormonal profile to do so. Rather, the fears of getting "too big" are overblow do to propogations of misinformation, such as you are doing here.

I second that AMEN!!!!!!!

The people that say women should do it differently are playing the same money game as the rest of the world. Women want to hear about an easier way to make themselves look beautiful. Most of them don't know what sweating is about. Hence the other misguided belief of the Cardio craze........ UGH

 

[austinite]

Originally posted by Twin Peak

{You said}

There is no such thing as "training like a man" or "training like a woman."


{Then later, you said}

I'd also like to touch briefly on your misguided notion that men and women will respond the same to the same workouts.

These two statements are contradictory. You acknowledge that men and women respond differently to workouts. I would also offer that they GENERALLY work out differently.

It is less likely that most women will grunt and strain for that "last rep" to the degree most men will. Why is that? Hormonal differences? Societal pressure? Less of a drive to get big/strong? I don't know.

I'll concede that I know less than many of you about this subject, but I know enough to know that no individual has all of the answers.

The thread starter will probably end up trying several combinations/techniques until she finds a routine/diet that gives her the type of progress she desires.

 

[CourtQueen]

Ballerina - Back to your question. Your trainer is right, it does take time. You need to be realistic about how much fat you have vs. muscle. Do you know your fat%?

Another option is plyometrics, jumping specifically. Sand volleyball can really lean those legs down. But again it isn't going to happen over night.

I would suggest avoiding the seated hip adduction.

 

[Twin Peak]

These two statements are contradictory. You acknowledge that men and women respond differently to workouts. I would also offer that they GENERALLY work out differently.

No, they are not.

The former discusses how men and women should train the same, the latter simply acknowledges that they will not respond the same; this does not mean, however, that simply because they will not respond the same (in general women will not grow as quickly or as large) they should train different. These notions are not contradictory in the least.

I would also offer that they GENERALLY work out differently.

While this is true, that does not mean it should be.

It is less likely that most women will grunt and strain for that "last rep" to the degree most men will. Why is that? Hormonal differences? Societal pressure? Less of a drive to get big/strong? I don't know.

I am not sure your point here. Its rather irrelevant to the topic at hand. However, the fact that TYPICALLY women train differently (assuming that is true) has only to do with notions of perception and drive, and nothing more.

 

[Johnnny]

I wasn't being sexist in anyway. All I was saying was that most women who've trained with me preffered not to train with the heavy weight low rep scheme.

And most women I see training at the gym do not train with heavier weights & low reps, they train with lighter weights & higher reps & focus more on cardio than weights.

The men I see training at my gym tend to use the heavy weights, low rep scheme the majority of the time.

In no way was I trying to be sexist, I apologize if you took it that way.

However I've seen a couple of women at my gym training with the heavy weights 2-4 reps scheme & they tend to be bigger & bulkier than most of the women I see at my gym who tend to focus more on cardio & use the lighter weights & higher reps scheme & they tend to be more slender, leaner & have good tone/definition which is what many of the women I've spoken to want.

 

[CourtQueen]

What they look like today does not tell you what they will look like tomorrow.

 

[nikegurl]

Originally posted by Johnnny
I wasn't being sexist in anyway. All I was saying was that most women who've trained with me preffered not to train with the heavy weight low rep scheme.

And most women I see training at the gym do not train with heavier weights & low reps, they train with lighter weights & higher reps & focus more on cardio than weights.

And that is due to the fact that they get bad misinformation (like what you posted and are perpetuating)

 

[Johnnny]

CourtQueen well I don't see all women wanting to look like the hulk anytime soon from the majority of the women in my gym.

 

[Johnnny]

nikegurl it is not bad or wrong information. If every woman started training really heavy & the 2-4 reps scheme, there would be a lot of female hulks around.

It's a known fact that when training with heavier weights & the 2-4 rep scheme, it builds big, thick muscles. Which is what most women do not want from the women that I see at the gym & what I hear their goals are. They want to be lean, defined, & slender. Training heavy with the 2-4 rep scheme will just make the woman thicker & bulkier which like I said is not what most women I see at the gym want. Unless they're training for Ms.Olympia or something.

 

[CourtQueen]

You don't understand. Whatever their routine is today doesn't mean that is what thye have been doing to get where they are now or does it dictate what they want to acheive. Just by looking at what they are currently doing doesn't mean squat!

Originally posted by Johnnny
However I've seen a couple of women at my gym training with the heavy weights 2-4 reps scheme & they tend to be bigger & bulkier than most of the women I see at my gym who tend to focus more on cardio & use the lighter weights & higher reps scheme & they tend to be more slender, leaner & have good tone/definition which is what many of the women I've spoken to want.

^ I think this is a bullshit statement.
I would like you to go up to each one of those women that are lifting lighter weights and more reps and ask the following questions....
1) When did you start lifting?
2) What was your bodyfat% before you started lifting?
3) How old are you?
4) Why are you doing the current lifting routine that you are and what exactly is the routine.

 

[CourtQueen]

Originally posted by Johnnny
nikegurl it is not bad or wrong information. If every woman started training really heavy & the 2-4 reps scheme, there would be a lot of female hulks around.

It's a known fact that when training with heavier weights & the 2-4 rep scheme, it builds big, thick muscles. Which is what most women do not want from the women that I see at the gym & what I hear their goals are. They want to be lean, defined, & slender. Training heavy with the 2-4 rep scheme will just make the woman thicker & bulkier which like I said is not what most women I see at the gym want. Unless they're training for Ms.Olympia or something.

WRONG

 

[nikegurl]

Johnny - It is NOT a known fact that women training with heavy weights build big thick muscles. very few women have the genetic capability to build big thick muscles even with years of trying to do just that. you make it sound as though a woman using heavy weights better watch out or muscles will just pop out everywhere.

it's ok if you don't know this stuff but please stop insisting things are facts when they are total myths and please don't spread the ignorance.

 

[CourtQueen]

Ever heard of testosterone Johnny???