Possible to gain and lose at the same time?

[gr81]

what the fuck are you talking about. You are completely contradicting yourself. You DID say protien builds muscle, not calories. The thread isn't asking how to build muscle while keeping fat to a minimum, it asks if you can build muscle and lose fat AT THE SAME TIME. You said that you can. Do you actually think that impresses someone that you won some local amatuer contest, b/c it doesn't. not 1 thing you have said has made any sense. Hey this is your exact quote

"Gr81,Calories don`t build muscle ,protein does.Just keep your protein at 1.5-2 grams per pound of bodyweight and you`ll grow"

You can say all that you want about your trophies but I can tell exactly what kind of lifter you are by what you say and how you say it.

 

[Mudge]

Originally posted by Malachor
The biggest problem is finding shirts that I like that fit me. Being 6'3 and having gained quite a bit of muscle in my upper body has proved to be a problem. Most XL shirts I find are too short for me and they look like I'm too poor or dumb to find shirts that fit. Also, old XL shirts that have fit right, are being worn out sine I wear them more due to finding less clothes.

I'm 6'2" and wear XXL shirts, there are XXXL and XXXXL available in most stores. However they also make the shirts longer, so its about time for big and tall for me.

 

[Malachor]

Yeah, I had to go to big and tall two weeks ago to get a nice button up shirt. I'm just not big enough though to get most XXXL shirts, but the length is better.

 

[Mudge]

XXXL is too long on me, but I have found that different MFGs, or even the same one depending when you buy it, are often never the same size twice and the thickness of the shirt fabric often changes too (the quality). I hate that.

 

[tjwes]

gr81,Why have a fit just because someone has a different opinion than yours? I don`t care that much about this issue to keep wasting my time arguing a point that doesn`t even freaking matter anyway.An open mind is a terrible thing to lose.You seem like a real nice guy though.Keep pumping !

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by gr81
Do you know how many cals make up just 1lb of muscle?

Between 600 and 800kcals, and it requires about 2400kcals to synthesis one pound of muscle tissue.

 

[Fit Freak]

Gr81,Calories don`t build muscle ,protein does.Just keep your protein at 1.5-2 grams per pound of bodyweight and you`ll grow.

You have a lot to learn if you think this is the case....a think you are in need of a friendly reminder to have a read from a PHYSIOLOGY TEXT

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by tjwes
Gr81,Calories don`t build muscle ,protein does.

There's a LOT more to hypertrophy than just protein.

(P.s. It's actually amino acids.)

Re: your calorie statement there - workers on a building site won't lay bricks unless you pay them.

 

[Fit Freak]

Building muscle and losing fat is entirely different than slowing adding quality muscle without packing on the fat. I challenge anyone in this thread to explain biologically how it IS possible to build muscle while on a cutting diet. It isn't possible unless you are on drugs, and alot of them at that. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to have an easier time adding lean muscle than others, but it isn't happening. Do you know how many cals make up just 1lb of muscle? It's as simple as that this: you need to burn more cals than you consume to lose fat, and to gain muscle you need need to consume more than you burn. Adipose tissue doesn't transform magically into muscle tissue, so where are all the nutrients and cals that are needed to make up a lb of muscle even, where is it coming from when you are on a restricted diet? please tell me. This is a ridiculous arguement. You all have been watching to many late night infomercials.

This was the most correct statement made in the last 2 pages of BS....it's a physiological fact.....and Jodi...you are saying you added 2 inches to your legs w/o ANY fat...I would beg to differ...which could be proven through accurate HYDROSTATIC MEASUREMENTS....what is much more likey is that you gained muscle with VERY LITTLE fat gain.

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by Fit Freak
You have a lot to learn if you think this is the case....a think you are in need of a friendly reminder to have a read from a PHYSIOLOGY TEXT

Actually, if the link in his sig leads to a website with photos of him, then he's in good nick.

 

[tjwes]

I`ve learned one thing ,I don`t really care.I`ve got better things to do.How long are we going to argue about this?We all have different opinions it doesn`t make yours right in my eyes,just like you don`t agree with mine.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by tjwes
TP, I don`t have all the answers ,but beleive me their not all on this website.I contend that you CAN build muscle and lose fat at the same time.It`s not a "cutting up diet ,but an all around hi-protein ,moderate zig-zag carb intake,low good fat intake,tons of water,and some gut busting intense training.Oh by the way,do you have all the answer`s? Don`t be so dogmatic.

I was referring to your ignorant comment about prohormones.

If you bothered to read my comments in this thread, it would be clear to you (as I discussed my position at length with Jodi) that I do believe you can do both at the same time. Thanks for misunderstanding me though.

Do I have all the answers, far from it. Do I limit my knowledge to this website. Please.

Dogmatic? Me? That is laughable. You clearly do not understand a word of what I say, explicitly or implicitly, or have a clue as to my "beliefs" on training and nutrition. Thanks for being so presumptuous though.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by gr81
Building muscle and losing fat is entirely different than slowing adding quality muscle without packing on the fat. I challenge anyone in this thread to explain biologically how it IS possible to build muscle while on a cutting diet. It isn't possible unless you are on drugs, and alot of them at that. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to have an easier time adding lean muscle than others, but it isn't happening. Do you know how many cals make up just 1lb of muscle? It's as simple as that this: you need to burn more cals than you consume to lose fat, and to gain muscle you need need to consume more than you burn. Adipose tissue doesn't transform magically into muscle tissue, so where are all the nutrients and cals that are needed to make up a lb of muscle even, where is it coming from when you are on a restricted diet? please tell me. This is a ridiculous arguement. You all have been watching to many late night infomercials.

Physiologically of course it is possible. Causing nutrient partitioning through training, diet, and supplementation, one can divert more kcals (protein, EFAs, and carbs) consumed to muscle, and less to fat. This can occur even in a hypocaloric state, such that sufficient nutrients (both micro and macro) are diverted to the muscle so that hypertrophy can occur.

Since you are in a hypocaloric state, your body needs energy from somewhere and since the bulk of your kcals are going toward muscle building, your body will utilize fat stores.

Thus, your body is physiolofically capable of both hypertrophy and lipolysis concommittently.

Granted, this is not nature's way, or even the prefer choice, that is why you need to manipulate this through, as I said, diet, training and supplementation. BTW, one of the biggest reasons why AAS is an exception to the general rule is because it sends powerful repartitioning signals to the body.

Lastly, take your argument (that it is physiologically impossible) to the extreme and even significantly overfat newbies could not do both, save drug use. That is obviously not true.

 

[tjwes]

TP,No I don`t know about your beleifs any more than you know about mine.Your statement that you know what kind of lifter I am is totally ridiculous.You know nothing about me ,only that you disagree with me.I must also thank you for being so presumptuous.Pro-hormones might work for you, but they did nothing for me, except lighten the load in my wallet.There is a new supplement out called food.It probably worked for you because you beleived in them so strongly.Of course you don`t limit yourself to this website,good move, because with all the armchair authorities here you would be bound to fail in your attempts to build a good physique.Everyone here suggests reading a book or two.Is that what makes them experts?How about some in the trenches experience?I read a lot but I also have been training a long time,with very little propensity to build muscle.I had to experiment and try a lot of different methods.This is where you gain knowledge ,not in a book designed to take your money by touting a lot of mumbo-jumbo that a lot of people here quote.Read,by all means but use your own brain to find out what works for your particular situation.

 

[ZECH]

tjwes, I would like to know which PH you took? There are several excellent PH's out that will give you excellent gains!! I've tried several over the last year or so and I've had good gains!

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by tjwes
TP,No I don`t know about your beleifs any more than you know about mine.Your statement that you know what kind of lifter I am is totally ridiculous.

WTF are you talking about. I never said this. Your are clearly confusing things.

As to prohormones, there are dozens of people here, and thousands on other boards who have experienced unparalleled (save for AAS) growth.

I suspect you either used an outdated form, a poor brand, or an insufficient dosage.

I am an advanced lifter, and have gained 10-15 pounds of solid muscle in the last year, at least half of which is due to 3 short prohormone cycles.

I have no clue what your rant is regarding a book, or what principles are touted that you disagree with.

It certainly seems you have issues, and those issues, when directed to me, are clearly misplaced.

 

[Mariner]

Thanks for all the replies on this subject. Egos aside, it has been a good debate. My own experience is that I can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. But I???m speaking from the perspective of someone who isn???t interested in being massive. I simply want to see my abs and not be embarrassed taking my shirt off at the beach. I know in the last 8 weeks that I have lost at least 8% bodyfat and all my major muscles are bigger and more toned than before.

But, I???m also starting to feel like I need to work each musclegroup harder to see more gains. However, my number one goal remains to lose the fat around the waist. Once the love handles are gone I???ll be more concerned with muscle mass.

This board is a good source of info, but I have zero interest in any ???roid supplementation, nor do I want to get freaky with my bod. I simply want to look like Brad Pitt in fight club (joke).

 

[Twin Peak]

Brad Pitt weighed around 140 pounds, in that movie. I.e. the anorexic look.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I agree with TP in that it is possible. For anyone to say it is impossible is unfounded. Does anyone have conclusive evidence supporting that it can or cannot happen? Nope. Do some people have anecdotal evidence that it has happened to them? Most definitely. I feel it is more than possible.

I would also like to add that when you have attained 200 lbs at 10% bf and then you get sloppy for a few months, it is possible to gain muscle and lose BF at the same time, at least by the measurements being used. I love when people say most of the gain is water weight when your muscles are 70% water in the first place, of course any gain in muscle is going to be mostly water..

 

[Twin Peak]

Of course, when I say most of the weight gain is water weight, I mean that it is subcutaneous waterweight, as opposed to intramuscular water weight.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Oh, TP, I know that you know, I am talking about other folk who discredit progress with the statement. Do you know who this is by the way?

 

[Twin Peak]

Doesn't everyone?

Welcome back.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
I agree with TP

With a comment like this, I figured it was someone intelligent.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Only you would. Nice Smilie,

 

[Pepper]

Originally posted by Fit Freak
For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat:

1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS)

2) You're a beginner lifter

After that I would say it's not going to happen

IMO, you need to add one more....3) if you have alot of body fat.

I am 100% sure that i have lost body fat and added muscle. Will I be able to continue this as I get leaner? I doubt it.

 

[Robboe]

*Hands Pepper the 'You need to look a page or two back' award for the month of June*

 

[DaMayor]

 

[Pepper]

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
*Hands Pepper the 'You need to look a page or two back' award for the month of June*

Yep, I deserve that...I read all of that right after posting. Sorry!

 

[Nate]

yes, it's possible.

i'm doing it right now with great results...so far.

 

[OceanDude]

Wow, I just caught up with the thread ??? am reluctant to throw in my results for fear of re-kindling another heated round of debate. But the debate was very stimulating and I think by and by you all pulled the emotions in well and got some good thoughts on the table. Hey that???s why I came here to hear arguments and experiences from people that have actually been doing this stuff all their life. Well, it may be of benefit to hear the opinion of a person who fits into one of the prior categories of being a beginner and ???fat???.

OK. I am one of those guys who was carrying around a lot of body fat after getting ???domesticated??? for 15 years. I just decided I had enough of the sluggishness and the bad fitting clothes and the little aches and pains and other nasty things that happen as I aged. I was not a ???couch potato???, rather I was active but principally just not eating nutritiously and fat was on a winning advance. Anyway, I started one of the 12 week transformation programs at the start of this year. Since I use to lift off and on at an intermediate level years ago (10 ??? 15 years ago) I at least knew enough of the basic lifting principals to get me up to speed pretty fast. What I did not know when I started my transformation program was good nutrition ??? that I learned on the fly very rapidly (am intrigued by it all and it???s now a hobby).

From my own personal results I have concluded that YOU CAN lose a LOT of fat and GAIN a fair (some) percentage of lean tissue/muscle on a slightly restrictive caloric intake and/or increased activity level when body composition is well outside of its original early adult genetic composition programming/template. Hell I use to be a string bean swimmer in High School and did not put on any muscle on till college. I concur however, with most here that it is probably NOT OPTIMAL (highly unlikely) to do both at the same time ??? especially once you get close to your basic natural body composition levels. But from my own personal experiences I am inclined to believe that the rules & conventional thinking (that you can???t do both fairly well) are much different when body fat levels are high and the person is not a pure endomorphic type (I???m probably naturally about a 2-7-1 ecto/meso/endo). That is, I believe that the body will actually GREATLY accommodate a complete composition makeover (i.e. essentially facilitate swapping a fair amount of fat for muscle) when way outside of your normal natural composition levels and when one knows certain rules about how to eat, when to eat and how to naturally manipulate natural hormones (predominantly insulin, IGF-1, GH & Testosterone) and how to encourage the body out of a state of catabolism.

Having stated that let me now say this. I am not yet at an advanced level of body building by any means ??? I am now focusing on that 6 pack rather than huge mass gains. I am currently at 191 lb on a 6??? frame 10% body fat (down from 32%) in less than 6 months and have put on significant lean body mass (17 lbs ??? way more than I thought possible) that was lost to age and previously poor nutritional habits. I know the lean tissue gains are real (and not just a measurement and math artifact) since my strength gains are remarkable (albeit, a good portion of this strength gain is undoubtedly related to neurological efficiencies as well). Since I have now just about radically changed my body composition from the prior state and am closer to what I originally use to be (but actually stronger than at any prior time in my life), I believe it will now become much harder to put on additional mass/lean tissue without greatly increasing the risk of injury through higher intensity (risk benefit concept here) and the risk of more body fat (again risk-benefit concept) through higher caloric/protein intake. However, since my personal goals are probably not geared toward a true bodybuilder???s objective I will be very happy with focusing on maximizing my strength-to-weight ratio while maintaining a relatively low body fat for aesthetic purposes. If that means I can carry more aesthetically attractive muscle without substantially more risk ??? that???s terrific since it contributes to the greater strength to weight objective.

Hey, I tend to run long on my posts ??? I apologize. But I did want to let you all know my personal experiences from the perspective of someone that is coming off that higher body fat scenario.