Professional Opinion

[Supreme Sports]

Are these numbers for drug-free trainees?

I still don't understand why the volume has to occur all in one sitting...

Watch pumping iron.

j/k

As the bodybuilder increases his muscular development, more and more volume is required to illict a MAXIMUM growth response. This overload must occur in one session, or the overload becomes dispersed and therefore SUBOPTIMAL for GROWTH.

 

[CowPimp]

Watch pumping iron.

j/k

As the bodybuilder increases his muscular development, more and more volume is required to illict a MAXIMUM growth response. This overload must occur in one session, or the overload becomes dispersed and therefore SUBOPTIMAL for GROWTH.

I understand your position on this. My question was why? Also, is this entirely based on empirical evidence?

 

[Supreme Sports]

I understand your position on this. My question was why? Also, is this entirely based on empirical evidence?

Most of what we as bodybuilders do IS BASED ON EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, but I am sure I can dig up something for ya

I would consult the PROFESSIONAL LEVEL BODYBUILDERS, and see what THEY DO. I can assure you, they are NOT training 3 muscles in one session.

 

[Double D]

Ouch....my head hurts!

Arguing with P is like a 16 year old boy arguing with Ron Jeremy about sex.....its just not worth your time. P is to educated and things on this board just dont work in a body part sense. Most guys here are for the most part natural. Some guys use a little here, but most guys are natural. Bodypart splits for natural guys arent your best bet.

 

[CowPimp]

Most of what we as bodybuilders do IS BASED ON EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, but I am sure I can dig up something for ya

I would consult the PROFESSIONAL LEVEL BODYBUILDERS, and see what THEY DO. I can assure you, they are NOT training 3 muscles in one session.

You're probably right about what professional bodybuilders, but top tier powerlifters and strongmen have huge amounts of lean body mass as well, and they don't generally train as you have suggested. The only difference is they don't need to have extremely low body fat levels to compete in their sport. That doesn't mean they don't have the mass to back up their training style.

Also, once again, are these guidelines for a natural trainee, yes or no?

 

[Skate67]

Bodypart splits for natural guys arent your best bet.

Why not?

 

[Double D]

Are you kidding me? You've been here since 03 and your asking me why not? Hum....not to active are we?

 

[Supreme Sports]

Are you kidding me? You've been here since 03 and your asking me why not? Hum....not to active are we?

Bro, don't come down on the man so hard, it is JUST YOUR OPINION.

IN MY OPINION, working one or two muscles per session is OPTIMAL.

 

[P-funk]

working one or two movements per workout is good. I hate thinking in terms of working muscles. The body is a linked kinetic chain which works together to create movement. By limiting your thinking to just a muscle group, you are limiting you thinking about how a specific movement effects all the others muscles that work to produce that movement. This is were movement impairments, muscle imbalances and potential injuries tend to be displayed.

Example:

upper push/lower pull (or hip dominant)

upper pull/lower push (or quad dominant)

 

[Double D]

Bro, don't come down on the man so hard, it is JUST YOUR OPINION.

IN MY OPINION, working one or two muscles per session is OPTIMAL.

By splits I mean 1 muscle group a day.

Something like

Mon-Chest
Tues-Back
Weds-Legs
Thurs-Shoulders
Fri-Arms

Is just ignorant.

 

[Supreme Sports]

working one or two movements per workout is good. I hate thinking in terms of working muscles. The body is a linked kinetic chain which works together to create movement. By limiting your thinking to just a muscle group, you are limiting you thinking about how a specific movement effects all the others muscles that work to produce that movement. This is were movement impairments, muscle imbalances and potential injuries tend to be displayed.

Example:

upper push/lower pull (or hip dominant)

upper pull/lower push (or quad dominant)

Most movements utilize a PRIMARY muscle and a secondary muscle. Sometimes, even a third and fourth muscle are utilized.

BASED on this knowledge of MOVEMENTS, we can strategically train our MUSCLES using a series of muscle-specific MOVEMENTS!

So for CHEST:

4 Sets BB Flat Bench
4 Sets DB Flat Bench
4 Sets BB Incline Bench
4 Sets Pec-Dec Flies

NOW ALTHOUGH many of these chest movements ALSO utilize the deltoids, triceps, and even biceps, they PRIMARILY TARGET THE CHEST.

So long as one constructs their regimen STRATEGICALLY, you can train each muscle OPTIMALLY once or twice per week, depedning on the individual regimen.

 

[Double D]

Interesting P, hes telling you how to develop a program. I am curious to see where this goes.

 

[MCx2]

 

[Yanick]

I know. While I agree, there are bad people in every field.....saying something like that is ridiculous.

I mean Yan, could you imagine someone looking down their noes at you BECAUSE of your education?

I will laugh in the face of anyone who says/thinks such things. Yes there are bad people in every industry but, were i not educated, i would still listen to the guy who went through atleast some formal schooling rather than read some BB rags and got himself hyooge. And speaking from personal knowledge, P-funk has had more than his fair share of formal and informal schooling.

I was trying to make a point, and although I was being sarcastic, please don't twist my words my friend.

Sarcasm does not translate well over the internet big guy, 90+% of communication is non-verbal and sarcasm happens to fall into that category.

As well there was no twisting of words, you were asked for your credentials. You stated you had none and then went on to say you mistrusted people with credentials, there is no way to take such words out of context and twist them around to appeal to a straw man argument.

I know dozens of morons who have "CREDENTIALS" that have no idea what they are talking about. SADLY, same is the case with Doctors.

It is true that knowledge is an individual thing and credentials don't make someone knowledgeable, but they atleast show that the person has put time and effort into their respective fields.

Now the doctor thing is a different story all together, but i would please ask you not to disrespect such individuals with blanket statements such as you have done twice in this thread. Once again it is a very individual thing but i can assure you that even the most idiotic doctor will take you to school regarding the human body, maybe not steroids, whey protein and bench pressing but it takes lots of hardwork and time to become a doctor and as far as i can see you are just some juicehead who read some muscle rags and paid Rob money to come here and pimp your supps.

I prefer not to engage in any unproductive argumentation, I am just expressing my personal opinions on what works BEST.

Its a very productive argument because it shows this community where you are coming from with your attitude, training, advice etc.

I won't post in this thread anymore because if i do it won't be long until i get banned.

 

[Supreme Sports]

I will laugh in the face of anyone who says/thinks such things. Yes there are bad people in every industry but, were i not educated, i would still listen to the guy who went through atleast some formal schooling rather than read some BB rags and got himself hyooge. And speaking from personal knowledge, P-funk has had more than his fair share of formal and informal schooling.



Sarcasm does not translate well over the internet big guy, 90+% of communication is non-verbal and sarcasm happens to fall into that category.

As well there was no twisting of words, you were asked for your credentials. You stated you had none and then went on to say you mistrusted people with credentials, there is no way to take such words out of context and twist them around to appeal to a straw man argument.



It is true that knowledge is an individual thing and credentials don't make someone knowledgeable, but they atleast show that the person has put time and effort into their respective fields.

Now the doctor thing is a different story all together, but i would please ask you not to disrespect such individuals with blanket statements such as you have done twice in this thread. Once again it is a very individual thing but i can assure you that even the most idiotic doctor will take you to school regarding the human body, maybe not steroids, whey protein and bench pressing but it takes lots of hardwork and time to become a doctor and as far as i can see you are just some juicehead who read some muscle rags and paid Rob money to come here and pimp you supps.



Its a very productive argument because it this community where you are coming from with your attitude, training, advice etc.

I won't post in this thread anymore because if i do it won't be long until i get banned.

Credentials do NOT mean that much to me, I am just being honest. They realistically translate into very little real-world application.

First of all, I am UNIQUE; I am by no means the rule, I AM THE EXCEPTION.


I have made a name for myself in the community BASED on my INTIMATE knowledge of Physiology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and all things scientific for that matter.

I went to college for business and philosophy. I am JEWISH.

Me being as JACKED as I am today is almost a MIRACLE in itself.

It was the result of KNOWLEDGE.

 

[P-funk]

Most movements utilize a PRIMARY muscle and a secondary muscle. Sometimes, even a third and fourth muscle are utilized.

BASED on this knowledge of MOVEMENTS, we can strategically train our MUSCLES using a series of muscle-specific MOVEMENTS!

So for CHEST:

4 Sets BB Flat Bench
4 Sets DB Flat Bench
4 Sets BB Incline Bench
4 Sets Pec-Dec Flies

NOW ALTHOUGH many of these chest movements ALSO utilize the deltoids, triceps, and even biceps, they PRIMARILY TARGET THE CHEST.

So long as one constructs their regimen STRATEGICALLY, you can train each muscle OPTIMALLY once or twice per week, depedning on the individual regimen.

There are a few flaws in your approach:

a) The incline bench press (depending on angle of inclination) is not a MOVEMENT in the horizontal or transverse plane. it is more in between the transverse and frontal planes (or depending on the abduction of the arm, IE into the high five position, could even be more between transverese and sagital). Understanding the biomechanics of the exercises you are prescribing become critical when analyzing how to balance out that movement to properly strengthen the shoulder girdle.

b) Why both doubling up the pressing in the same plane in one workout (IE, bench press AND DB bench press) when you can do one on one day and then the other on another day, when you are fresher and can take better advantage of your pressing strength and stimulate the muscle to a greater extent.

 

[CowPimp]

I will try asking this question one more time and see if I get a response. These guidelines that you have laid out, are they for the natural trainee, or the chemically enhanced trainee?

 

[Supreme Sports]

I will try asking this question one more time and see if I get a response. These guidelines that you have laid out, are they for the natural trainee, or the chemically enhanced trainee?

BOTH my friend, with the NATURAL trainee using slightly less(but not MUCH less) volume.

 

[rmcfar]

Now the doctor thing is a different story all together, but i would please ask you not to disrespect such individuals with blanket statements such as you have done twice in this thread. Once again it is a very individual thing but i can assure you that even the most idiotic doctor will take you to school regarding the human body, maybe not steroids, whey protein and bench pressing but it takes lots of hardwork and time to become a doctor and as far as i can see you are just some juicehead who read some muscle rags and paid Rob money to come here and pimp your supps.

well said

I'm sorry but if you are prepared to say that someone with 8+ years of education on the human body doesnt know what they are talking about you are a complete idiot. And saying you know what you are talking about chemically in comparison to a doctor is absurd as well. I'm sure you know more then the average joe because of the one chemistry course you took at community college but you don't hold a candle to even the least qualified doctor out there.

 

[Supreme Sports]

well said

I'm sorry but if you are prepared to say that someone with 8+ years of education on the human body doesnt know what they are talking about you are a complete idiot. And saying you know what you are talking about chemically in comparison to a doctor is absurd as well. I'm sure you know more then the average joe because of the one chemistry course you took at community college but you don't hold a candle to even the least qualified doctor out there.

Sorry, its the truth.

I DIAGNOSED MY MOTHER WITH DIABETES, after she suffered for YEARS without being properly diagnosed. Don't even get me started, my mother almost died. i can tell you COUNTLESS horror-stories, but I won't waste my time.

Qualifications do not = expertise

EXPERIENCE = expertise

By the way, University of Florida is not a community college.

 

[Double D]

I am pretty sure you could say P has the experience.

 

[Arnold]

Sorry, its the truth.

I DIAGNOSED MY MOTHER WITH DIABETES, after she suffered for YEARS without being properly diagnosed. Don't even get me started, my mother almost died. i can tell you COUNTLESS horror-stories, but I won't waste my time.

Qualifications do not = expertise

EXPERIENCE = expertise

By the way, University of Florida is not a community college.

You honestly think you are more knowledgeable in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, medicine, etc. than an MD?

I wonder what Trouble would have to say if she were still around?

 

[P-funk]

You honestly think you are more knowledgeable in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, medicine, etc. than an MD?

I wonder what Trouble would have to say if she were still around?

I can't even imagine.

 

[DontStop]

Credentials do NOT mean that much to me, I am just being honest. They realistically translate into very little real-world application.

First of all, I am UNIQUE; I am by no means the rule, I AM THE EXCEPTION.


I have made a name for myself in the community BASED on my INTIMATE knowledge of Physiology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and all things scientific for that matter.

I went to college for business and philosophy. I am JEWISH.

Me being as JACKED as I am today is almost a MIRACLE in itself.

It was the result of KNOWLEDGE.

Yes, you're unique like every one else.
And you don't think doctors come from the real world? My mom goes to AA with a doctor. Doctors are just like everybody else. being a doctor does'nt make you high society. But I'd rather go to a doctor about health matters then some guy who went to college for business and philosiphy

 

[Supreme Sports]

You honestly think you are more knowledgeable in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, medicine, etc. than an MD?

I wonder what Trouble would have to say if she were still around?

Obviously there are some GREAT JEWISH DOCTORS OUT THERE, LOL.

I am simply stating, JUST BECAUSE I AM NOT A DOCTOR, does not nullify my education or knowledge.

MOST doctors would run circles around me. HOWEVER, you would be shocked how many doctors I could take to friggin SCHOOL on a plethora of different medical subjects and fields.

 

[Arnold]

...you would be shocked how many doctors I could take to friggin SCHOOL on a plethora of different medical subjects and fields.

yes I would.

 

[P-funk]

just because you workout and do juice doesn't qualify you to know dick shit about anything.

I may know more about exercise physiology or kineseology than an MD, but that doesn't mean I am smarter than them or could "school" them in the medical field. It just means that I specialize in a specific field that is not something that they specialize in.

I might know more about kineseology and biomechanics than Yanick. But, if I walk into the fucking hospital, I can garuntee you that he is going to know 100% more than I would. That is not my playing field, so to speak. But, that happens to be where his speciality is.

when you make foolish blanket statements you look.....foolish.

 

[Supreme Sports]

just because you workout and do juice doesn't qualify you to know dick shit about anything.

I may know more about exercise physiology or kineseology than an MD, but that doesn't mean I am smarter than them or could "school" them in the medical field. It just means that I specialize in a specific field that is not something that they specialize in.

I might know more about kineseology and biomechanics than Yanick. But, if I walk into the fucking hospital, I can garuntee you that he is going to know 100% more than I would. That is not my playing field, so to speak. But, that happens to be where his speciality is.

when you make foolish blanket statements you look.....foolish.

EXACTLY, and I know bodybuilding.

This argument is futile, LOL!

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[DontStop]

 

[CowPimp]

Thank you for responding to my question. Just out of curiosity, how much less would you say that a naturally trainee should be doing?

Here's my problem with empirical evidence: very few people give everything a try before they make a judgement on what works. So, there is this huge variance in "what works," which I think basically consists of people claiming that whatever worked for them works for everyone else. This is not always the case, but it seems to be a common trend.

I do realize that scientific studies also have variance, but that's why I try not to make big judgments on stuff before I see lots of studies coinciding, or studies in conjunction with empirical evidence to back it up. For example, the effect of EPOC on body composition and additional caloric expenditure seems to be up in the air when it comes to the research (Probably because of the large variance in research methods, modalities, and parameters), but there is enough evidence to support it's benefit for other reasons.

A board member here who I give a lot of respect to, Gopro, has a huge amount of experience in the realm of bodybuilding, with clients and with himself. He seems to believe in much less volume, which is also based on personal experience. He is also your size or bigger, hasn't juiced up, and started at 120-130 pounds to boot. Who's personal experience do I believe? You see where the issue arises?

just because you workout and do juice doesn't qualify you to know dick shit about anything.

Haha, best quote ever.

Followed by the best picture ever!