im seeing them crack down on supplements....gear for the most part i believe will be relatively unaffected
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if it were possible to make the raw materials here...with the climate the way it is i don't think any supplement companies would see that as a wise business decision. probably by the time it was up and running the full ban would be in effect.
I know several guys that have to order Kilo's at the time. $10-15k worth. Then it gets held up in customs for months till it clears. Do you think they would do all of this if they could get it here? I don't.
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Can you explain your reasoning behind this because to me it sounds hard to believe. Theres noway there gonna crack down on M1T harder than rec drugs unless guerrillas down in colombia start dealing M1T powder instead of coccaine to buy AK-47`s to kidnapp Americans.
Yes, everything comes from China right now, but where do you get your data that "very few" can make it in the U.S.? That is just false. Anyone with a college degree in Organic Chemistry and access to VIDA and a lab can make M1T . Where do you think the patents for all of this stuff come from? Not China!
More importantly, does it even matter if raws are being stopped? I mean, more PH products have been added to "in stock" lists at every retailer in the last month than I have ever seen. It seems to me that there is enough to last until the ban goes into effect. I expect that the smart retailers have anticipated this, and have no need to worry about raws, becuase the supply will taper off as the ban comes into effect.
And what data do you have to back up your "guarantee" about the crack down being more intense than on "hard drugs?" I think this is false, too. From our perspective, yes, it seems insane, but that's because the demand for illegal recreational drugs is many, many, many times higher than the demand for M1T or other PHs.
Bruce was on here all ecstatic about selling 500 bottles of M-Dien. Contrast that to the hundreds of SEMI TRUCKS full of illegal rec. drugs that make it into the country. Contrast that to the fact that even college weed dealers have a higher demand for their product.
Just look at the $ and resources spent on stopping illegal recreational drugs. There is no way that the PH ban is going to even garner 1/10th of that funding.
All they're going to do is "crack down" on people openly making and selling substances they deem to be scheduled. They are not going to patrol borders with armed guards and drug sniffing dogs, nor will they send commandos into foreign countries over a lousy bottle of M1T. They do all of these things for recreational drugs, so to say the "Crack down" is going to be worse is false.
It's all stemming from sports right now.............MLB, Olympic committee, ect. They don't want an unfair advantage. That is what started all of this. With all the money these big corporations have, they will get what they want. They will continue to pressure the government, like they have been doing and get all PH's and steriods almost to the extinction point. Sure there may be several UG labs, but it will be so damn expensive, you won't be able to buy it.
Question for you dg806...designersupps.com told me yesterday that they were working on a new compound (M4OHN) which they think would be "even better suited for a women, it has an even lower androgenic profile as well as a higher anabolic ratio."
That's all I know about it right now.
In light of the raw materials info in this thread...Do you think the fact that it's a new compound they're still working on means that it won't ever make it to market now?
That's all I know about it right now.
In light of the raw materials info in this thread...Do you think the fact that it's a new compound they're still working on means that it won't ever make it to market now?
Dude, it's a money issue. Bruce and others have said it themselves. Of course it could be made here. It's a question of using slave labor and cheap factories, or U.S. factories and scientists who demand to be paid well for their services and education.
Furthermore, to you or I a kilo may seem like a lot, but to a drug company or manufacturer, its NOTHING, they waste more than that every produciton cycle.
The overall demand for things like M1T is very LOW, believe it or not, and so no one would buy raw powder at the level where it becomes affordable to produce, which is in the thousands of pounds.
Realize that major manufacturers don't start their machines for an order of a mere kilo, or even 20 or 50 kilos. It costs more for them to changeover and setup their machinery than they would make selling a less than several box car containers full.
So you have an overall cost benefit to China, and also a handful of companies who will produce "short runs" of chemicals there, which is why they supply the world with raws. But this doesn't mean they're the only ones who can make raws.
CORRECT-A-MUNDO!
FDA and the Federal Government (congress) both said they were reluctant to do this! Remeber, they were the ones who crafted the law to give supp. unregulated freedom.
Thank the mega-rich athletes of the MLB who said it's not fair that you and I can use Andro and they can't!!!
You can also thank teenagers and unscrupulous parents and stores who let kids use this stuff.
dude, the war on drugs has been going on since the '80's, and guess what.......the U.S. is LOSING
bro, don't forget steroids are LEGAL in many otehr countries, and manufactured all over the world.
in fact, i've seen juice that's been both imported into the U.S. already made and shit that's been made right here in the U.S.
True, but it's the small business owner like 1fast who it affects, not the big corps.
Yes some steriods are made here by big corps. because there is a need for them. No need for PH at this point. But the crackdown will cover all. And there are no big companies like the Olympics and MLB wanting rec drugs gone. If they did you probably wouldn't see them as much.
I'm sure he has some now, but how much I don't know.
The discussion wasn't about who it effects, it was about your claim that you can't make raw materials for PHs in the U.S. which is false.
YES, it is shitty that PHs will be banned soon, and YES it effects the people we all love to support who run quality operations like 1fast400. It doesn't effect big companies at all b/c they are aware of how small the demand for PHs is, and don't dabble in them.
But I don't think there is going to be a drought on the supply before the ban goes into effect due to some invisible border patrol that stops every raw material shipment from China. In fact, I'd bet a lot on that fact. Further, the bill hasn't been finalized, there is no list, and we don't even know the validty of GoPros claim. A lot has to happen before all PHs are pulled from online retail.
YES, it is shitty that PHs will be banned soon, and YES it effects the people we all love to support who run quality operations like 1fast400. It doesn't effect big companies at all b/c they are aware of how small the demand for PHs is, and don't dabble in them.
But I don't think there is going to be a drought on the supply before the ban goes into effect due to some invisible border patrol that stops every raw material shipment from China. In fact, I'd bet a lot on that fact. Further, the bill hasn't been finalized, there is no list, and we don't even know the validty of GoPros claim. A lot has to happen before all PHs are pulled from online retail.
Seaking of supply and demand, have you guys seen how many steroids are sold on eBay?
I haven't seen a single auction get pulled yet.
Before we freak out about the PH drought and fill VPXs bank account tonight, we may want to think logically about how many companies supply these supps, how many FDA officers actually are available to police this situation, and how many overseas suppliers there are.
Last, with something like M1T or M-Dien, you could buy enough for two or three years for not a lot of $. That's why I'm not worried, and that's what I intend to do. If that doesn't do enough for me, I can always get real juice, which is always readily available!
I haven't seen a single auction get pulled yet.
Before we freak out about the PH drought and fill VPXs bank account tonight, we may want to think logically about how many companies supply these supps, how many FDA officers actually are available to police this situation, and how many overseas suppliers there are.
Last, with something like M1T or M-Dien, you could buy enough for two or three years for not a lot of $. That's why I'm not worried, and that's what I intend to do. If that doesn't do enough for me, I can always get real juice, which is always readily available!
I never said you couldn't make them, just that if you did, you couldn't afford them. And the supply could stop today. When the andro ban talk ignited, most people thought it meant androstenedione. They could include all andro and halt it immediately. No sells period. We don't know what the government will do.
Well, I spent 8 hours watching the debate on the senate floor, and I think I do have an idea of what they will do. The list does include quite a bit more than just plain old andro. Again, using ephedra as a baseline, we have three months to four months. If you can think of a more relevant example, please do, but the ephedra ban is about as similar in scope and timing, and we had three + months from when it was announced.
Also, no offense, but this is what you said:
That's why I responded.
You didn't say anything about the economies of scale, I did, at length.
And in regards to supply, my point is that I feel very confident that there is enough supply already on shelves to fill the demand for three months even if the raws are stopped (and it was possible to do so pre-ban, which I absolutely think is false), so I'm not worried.
BUT LETS HOPE WE'RE ALL WRONG AND WE CAN BUY PHS ALL YEAR!!
Have a good workout everyone!
--J
Also, no offense, but this is what you said:
That's why I responded.
You didn't say anything about the economies of scale, I did, at length.
And in regards to supply, my point is that I feel very confident that there is enough supply already on shelves to fill the demand for three months even if the raws are stopped (and it was possible to do so pre-ban, which I absolutely think is false), so I'm not worried.
BUT LETS HOPE WE'RE ALL WRONG AND WE CAN BUY PHS ALL YEAR!!
Have a good workout everyone!
--J
Fair..............I stand corrected. I should have added "if you want to be able to afford it? I know I couldn't.
They are wanting to make andro immediate. Until the supps companies can prove it is not harmful. And in "dione", it is harmful. If they do, you won't be able to buy what supply anyone has.
They are wanting to make andro immediate. Until the supps companies can prove it is not harmful. And in "dione", it is harmful. If they do, you won't be able to buy what supply anyone has.
For brodus:
Big Pharma Assumes Control of United States Government:
Please advise all of our esteemed VPX patrons that it is now official that the Feds have united in a joint task force, i.e., DEA, FDA, and US Customs and are stopping all shipments of pro-hormones and pro-steroids coming into the United States of America. Funny thing is, last time I checked, prohormones/pro-steroids were legal dietary supplements protected by the current law, DSHEA! Big Pharma has assumed control of the United States of America.
This statement came from Jack Owoc, CEO of VPX. He has confirmed to me that this is true. We are all hopeful that this is either innacurate or going to change. Jack is a little more than interested in this of course, and this will greatly affect business. I will post more as I learn it, but DO NOT question my purposes. I am supplying my friends with information from the inside that they may not be privy to...that is all.
Big Pharma Assumes Control of United States Government:
Please advise all of our esteemed VPX patrons that it is now official that the Feds have united in a joint task force, i.e., DEA, FDA, and US Customs and are stopping all shipments of pro-hormones and pro-steroids coming into the United States of America. Funny thing is, last time I checked, prohormones/pro-steroids were legal dietary supplements protected by the current law, DSHEA! Big Pharma has assumed control of the United States of America.
This statement came from Jack Owoc, CEO of VPX. He has confirmed to me that this is true. We are all hopeful that this is either innacurate or going to change. Jack is a little more than interested in this of course, and this will greatly affect business. I will post more as I learn it, but DO NOT question my purposes. I am supplying my friends with information from the inside that they may not be privy to...that is all.
We need someone big to overturn it...joe shmoes like me writing letters to washington is going to do nothing... GP, I hope VPX has a lawyer or two that could possibly bring the fight about this...
Again I really think its a violation of law to stop its importation if its legal...Just need to find someone willing to sue or fight it out...
Again I really think its a violation of law to stop its importation if its legal...Just need to find someone willing to sue or fight it out...
GoPro--
Thanks for the info.
So you know, I wasn't at all calling into question your motivations or purposes for posting. I actually just pointed out that your close association with a supplier of said supps would privy you to information about specific importations, but that I found it hard to believe, from a physical enforcement standpoint, that a wide-scale material stop at the point import would be possible.
I appreciate all of your help on these forums.
Like I said, we can thank, to a very large extene, Major League Baseball for this current uproar and ban. Raw material stop or not, though, I am quite confident that I will be able to stock up over the next three months. Let's hope I am right!
Thanks for the info.
So you know, I wasn't at all calling into question your motivations or purposes for posting. I actually just pointed out that your close association with a supplier of said supps would privy you to information about specific importations, but that I found it hard to believe, from a physical enforcement standpoint, that a wide-scale material stop at the point import would be possible.
I appreciate all of your help on these forums.
Like I said, we can thank, to a very large extene, Major League Baseball for this current uproar and ban. Raw material stop or not, though, I am quite confident that I will be able to stock up over the next three months. Let's hope I am right!
Twin Peak's a lawyer.... maybe he can enlighten us on the legality of it. That said, what big brother whats, big brother gets.
I guess no one has read my posts.
"Big Brother" never wanted to go here, but was pushed to do so by MLB poor actions, large drug companies, and public outcry following sensational media reports.
The FDA specifically drew a line at supplments b/c they don't have the resources or desire to police them.
The leader of the committee on steroids in sports, John McCain, publicly said in the hearings that congress shouldn't have to get involved in this issue.
MLB and drug companies say it's the government's job to change the law.
This is what is happening.
"Big Brother" never wanted to go here, but was pushed to do so by MLB poor actions, large drug companies, and public outcry following sensational media reports.
The FDA specifically drew a line at supplments b/c they don't have the resources or desire to police them.
The leader of the committee on steroids in sports, John McCain, publicly said in the hearings that congress shouldn't have to get involved in this issue.
MLB and drug companies say it's the government's job to change the law.
This is what is happening.
The problem we run into is that if PHs are to be regulated to prohibit sale to minors and regulated for purity/quality, then they would become much more expensive to offset cost of FDA testing, and it would take YEARS to get new compunds to market. In other words, only major drug companies could afford to make them.
I would like to see some kind of middle ground approach, but I am afraid my voice is not lot enough.
We must all agree that PHs are strong substances, much different than Kava Kava or something, but also shouldn't be illegal. How to make this the law is the question.
I would like to see some kind of middle ground approach, but I am afraid my voice is not lot enough.
We must all agree that PHs are strong substances, much different than Kava Kava or something, but also shouldn't be illegal. How to make this the law is the question.
There is a specific reason for this.
People continue to ask what VPX is doing prevent "Andro" from being banned. So, here is our answer. When we had a fighting chance, the USFA collaborated with another pro hormone company to push an agenda that was strictly the agenda of one supplement manufacturer and contrary to the myriad of other supplement companies that had a 1-Testosterone and/or other NON-1-andro and and 4-diol products in their line of supplementation. Attorneys for the USFA were heard and documented by VPX detectives at the Arnold Classic as saying,
"who does Owoc think he is introducing 1-TEST to the market" and they erroneously concluded with their gross
misunderstanding of the law as well deficiency in chemistry and biochemistry that, "1-Testosterone is a steroid". 1-TEST is no more of a steroid than DHEA because it's a naturally occurring hormone and it's never been sold as a drug before and is therefore, legal according to DSHEA. The USFA feared Owoc's 1-TEST product because it circumvented the need to use the 1-andro and 4diol precursors because it was 10 times more potent and had none side effects associated with these other inferior andro's. This obviously threw quite a wrench into the plan of the USFA and its cohorts which was to make all prohoromones illegal except those covered under patent which were 1-andro and 4-diol.
The thing that surprised VPX was that all the other supplement companies were agreeing to this until VPX single handedly exposed this conspiracy and went against their self-serving agenda. There's way more to it than just this, but the point is that if we worked together to save all pro-horomones and all pro-steroids, we wouldn't be in the uncomprimising position that we're now in. It's the selfishness of one man in this industry and the collaboration of the USFA that is the sole cause of why andro is now being banned. United, we did NOT stand, and now we will fall!
just wondering but for all you legal people (prince, etc) what will you do if or when they are illegal. wil you continue to buy illegally, will you go for bigger and better since its illegal anyways, or will you go all natural? im sure i know the answer but just wondering?
as for the raw products, im sure someone somewhere will find a fina or syno-like conversion to get the chemicals, as well as illegally obtaining them, IF its worth it(which i dont think it will be). the only thing i can forsee changing with this law is... lower abundance, price increase, and real gear usage going way up. im sure the fda has already thought o this and has plans to counter it but like someone earlier said if they cant get the heroin out of highschools i dont see them stopping ANYTHING!
as for the raw products, im sure someone somewhere will find a fina or syno-like conversion to get the chemicals, as well as illegally obtaining them, IF its worth it(which i dont think it will be). the only thing i can forsee changing with this law is... lower abundance, price increase, and real gear usage going way up. im sure the fda has already thought o this and has plans to counter it but like someone earlier said if they cant get the heroin out of highschools i dont see them stopping ANYTHING!
