What about when you do cardio after you workout? That's beyond 30 minutes, is the purpose defeated then?Last time I read, 30 minutes.
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What about when you do cardio after you workout? That's beyond 30 minutes, is the purpose defeated then?Last time I read, 30 minutes.
What about when you do cardio after you workout? That's beyond 30 minutes, is the purpose defeated then?
I dont like sucrose. Reeks too much havoc on the stomach. You might want to update your information, Pebble. That bottom study is outdated. You'll get a better result using a mix of both complex and simple carbs + whey and casein.
Each 250ml glass of choc milk has about 9gs of protein and 28 grams of carbs.
The bottom study is really a compilation of a bunch of studies.
Most people say to stay away form fructose because it is commonly not fully absporbed. It moves to the large intestine and ferments. That is why you have stomach issues with sucrose (glucose + fructose). But this normally doesnt happen when taken with a ratio of 1:1.
From what I have read I the only complex carbs one would be using are the ones - maltose (2x glucose) - that act like simple carbs. Do you have anything laying around that says otherwise?
They whey and casein thing is very debatbale. The point of a protein shake is for instant gratification, not hours down the road. Food should be in the place of a casein supplement (read I ate food before the workout and will after therefore I have slowly digesting protein at all times).
Curious pebble; why would you pick a complex carb source that has myriad of gastrointestinal issues such as malto? Why not a carb source such as oatmeal or barley or brown rice for that matter? I cant even take malto as a serious contender for complex carbs. It's garbage.
Umm ... maltos is found in oatmeal, barely, and brown rice. It's a component of plant starch.
But the reason is that glucose is fully absorbed by the body, easily.
You can't say it's necessary but it sure helps a lot.Apart from that if you can eat sufficient protein you'll get the same results.
As long as you are getting your protein it doesn't really matter what the source is
A post workout whey shake will indeed blunt cortisol - with or without carbs. Whey protein itself stimulates an insulin response, and it's insulin, not glucose, which counters cortisol.
Your right, but our primary means of altering insulin levels is through glucose (plasma) levels.
Primary or not, it's not the only way. Besides, exercise stimulates hepatic glucose which in turn induces insulin. Hell, the very act of eating does this - the first-phase rise in insulin is accompanied by hepatic glucose, which is released to protect against hypoglycemia.
Some current and former fatties (my own hand goes up; so does juggernaut's) have the impaired first-phase insulin response that comes along for the ride with the metabolic syndrome. I was on type Ii diabetes meds when I was fat because of this. I no longer need metformin because I got my diet under control, and I actually use a pre-meal whey shake to stimulate the insulin response I no longer elicit from glucose.
Whey protein is remarkable at releasing insulin. It's been a real blessing to me.
If you tend toward insulin resistance, rest assured you'll get a plenty-strong insulin response from whey alone.
My .02 CDN
I got off metformin the day I started the Atkins diet - I was still obese at the time.
Thanks for the links - I don't go to the U of Guelph though, so I can't log in. Regardless, assuming both articles examine the response on healthy normals - your research shows the insulin response to cho is higher than it is to whey in healthy normals. It's not the same in insulin resistance. In the metabolic syndrome, the pancreas may not respond normally to cho - first phase insulin response is impaired because of this, but whey will stimulate an insulin response even when cho does not.
With the first phase insulin response reduced or absent, glucose rises too high postprandially, meaning the second phase insulin response must be too high. This article explains the phenomenon very nicely: How Blood Sugar Control Works--And How It Stops Working
Why Insulin Release Fails
Insulin Resistance
First and second phase insulin release may fail to do their jobs for several reasons. The most common is a condition called insulin resistance in which some receptors in the liver and the muscle cells stop responding properly to insulin. This means that though there is lots of insulin circulating in the body, the muscles and liver (but not, alas, the fat cells) don't respond until the insulin levels rise much higher
So when a person's cells become insulin resistant, it will take a lot more insulin than usual to push circulating glucose into cells. In this case, while a person might have a perfectly normal first and second phase insulin response, the first phase response might not produce enough insulin to clear the circulating blood glucose resulting from eating a high carbohydrate meal. Then the second phase response might be prolonged because it takes a long time for beta-cells to secrete of the large amounts of insulin needed to counter the insulin resistance. Eventually the body may not be able to produce enough insulin to clear all the dietary carbohydrate from the bloodstream and blood sugars will rise to abnormal levels.
If your beta-cells are normal, and if insulin resistance at the muscles and liver is your only problem, over time you may be able to grow new pancreas islets filled with new beta-cells that can store even more insulin for use in first and second phase insulin response. In this case, though your blood sugar may continue to rise into the impaired range and take longer than normal to go back down to normal levels, your blood sugar response may never deteriorate past the impaired glucose tolerance stage to full-fledged diabetes. This is what happens to most people who have what is called "Metabolic Syndrome." Unfortunately, if you have impaired glucose tolerance, there is no way of knowing if you fall into this group or if your rising blood sugars are caused by failing or dying beta-cells.
Failing beta-cells
First phase insulin release also fails because beta-cells are dysfunctional or dying. This can happen along with insulin resistance, or without it. Studies have found that some thin, non-insulin resistant relatives of people with Type 2 Diabetes already show signs of beta cell dysfunction.
If beta-cells are dying or not working properly the remaining beta-cells may be working full-time just to keep up with the need for a basal insulin release so they can't store any excess in those granules for later release.
Some people with type 2 diabetes appear to have a defect which makes their beta-cells die when they attempt to reproduce in response to a need for more insulin. For these people, insulin resistance can cause the beta-cells to try to divide and then die, hastening on the degenerative process.
It is also possible that some people who develop type 2 diabetes have a genetic defect which prevents their beta-cells from storing insulin though their beta-cells are still capable of secreting it.
Scientists have discovered dozens of different genetic defects which cause beta-cells to fail or die in humans and animals. Many genes are expressed in the process that leads to the correct functioning of the beta-cells and many others in the cell receptors which respond to insulin. This means that one person's Type 2 Diabetes can behave quite differently from that of another person, depending on what exactly is broken in their blood sugar control system. This is why drugs that work well for one person may do little for another person. By understanding your own pattern of blood sugar response you may get some insight into what might be malfunctioning in your individual case.
Rising Blood Sugar Concentrations Further Damage Your Ability to Produce Insulin
Glucose Toxicity
Whatever the reason for the failing first phase insulin release there's an ugly feedback mechanism that kicks in when blood sugar levels rise because of that failing first phase insulin release: High levels of circulating glucose themselves are toxic to beta-cells, a phenomenon called "glucose toxicity". So as blood sugars rise these high blood sugar concentrations further damage and or kill more beta-cells, making first and second phase insulin release even less able to control blood sugar concentrations.
The result is a rapid drop in blood glucose, with ensuing hunger. Trust me, I've lived this, it was ghastly - I was ravenously hungry while GAINING weight, and struggled with my weight for almost twenty years.
This phenomenon precludes full-blown type II diabetes - and I assure you, I am well aware of the difference between type I and type II diabetes.
This article changed my life: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2732158/pdf/zdc1600.pdf
CONCLUSIONS
We demonstrated that whey protein, when given before or with a high-carbohydrate meal, resulted in a substantial reduction in postprandial glycemia in diet-controlled type 2 diabetic patients. Given that the magnitude of the reduction was comparable with what would be hoped for using pharmacological therapy, such as sulfonylureas, these data have considerable implications for nutritional strategies in the management of diabetes.
The pivotal role of the gastrointestinal tract in determining postprandial glycemia has often been overlooked, but it is assuming increasing prominence, partly because of the development of gut peptide???based therapies for diabetes, such as the GLP-1 analog exenatide (8) and the amylin analog pramlintide (9), which may act predominantly by slowing gastric emptying. Similar to what we reported after an oil preload (4), whey slowed gastric emptying substantially, in particular when given before the meal, and is associated with the stimulation of GLP-1 and CCK. However, in contrast to the delayed insulin response observed after oil, whey augmented insulin secretion markedly, possibly by a combination of the incretin effect and the direct stimulation of the β-cells by absorbed amino acids (10). It is likely that the stimulation of insulin by whey was responsible for the much greater reduction in glycemia after whey than after oil, given that the effects on gastric emptying were comparable.
Although our study involved a small number of subjects who had well-controlled, predominantly uncomplicated type 2 diabetes, the improvement in postprandial glycemia was marked and highly consistent. Further evaluation is now required in poorly controlled patients and those taking oral hypoglycemic agents in order to determine whether the acute effects are sustained in the longer term. It would also be important to confirm whether the effects are evident with a smaller load of protein in order to minimize additional energy intake. Although concerns have been raised about hyperinsulinemia as a risk factor for vascular disease (11), it is more likely that it represents a marker for other risk factors (12), and in the UK Prospective Diabetes Study (UKPDS), stimulation of insulin by sulfonylureas was not associated with increased cardiovascular events (13).
The concept of using dietary manipulations to treat type 2 diabetes, based on our knowledge of the contribution of gastric emptying and gut peptides to postprandial glycemic responses, appears to hold much promise.
Summarizing: some of us don't get a normal insulin response to glucose, but we do for whey protein. Having a pre-meal protein shake normalizes our insulin response, and thus allows us to feel fed and have a normal post-meal insulin response without medication. An added perq is that we feel more "fed", and thus have an easier time modulating appetite.
Pretty cool, eh?![]()
That is all great information, but it is for a very specific population. I understand that you and some others may fall into this category, but extending the information to healthy populations is very misleading.
For the average healthy person going to the gym, they should use CHO pre workout to control insulin (and as a result coritsol). It is better suited for the task than other nutrients.
I don't think it is. A great many of us are drawn to physical culture precisely because we are - or - were fat. The standard advice given to lifters has been to consume carb pre and/or postworkout, and although tolerated by some, I'd be willing to hazard a bet that there are more people who DON'T fall into the category of person you speak of.
Look around you the next time you go to a commercial gym. Tell me how many lean healthy people you see. Now tell me how many fatties you see.
When you've had enough there, go to Martin Berkhan's Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health website and read up on fasted training. He doesn't even advocate the necessity of a pre or postout meal, let alone carbohydrate.
We live in a very exciting time with regard to paradigm shifting - we're starting to see a great many sacred cows take a tumble. For me, the notions of "six daily meals" and "never train fasted" were the most recent to go.
I'm very glad to finally see good research answering questions relevant to aging former fatties like me.
As an aside, just how much of an insulin response does one need to counter the cortisol response? Surely that provided by a whey shake should be sufficient even for healthy normals.
I've been training fasted several times a week for over a year now. I do it when it's inconvenient to eat beforehand. So far, I've not wasted away. But you're right, n=1 here. Maybe others have different experiences.Berkhan is full of shit. He has changed his fasted state exercise stance many times to start to incorporation nutrients around workouts. This is because it was a great way to get noticed, but he needed to start backing up his claims. The only way he could do that was by including nutrients around the workouts.
Ketosis is neuroprotective. There's one benefit over calorie restriction. Cancer cells generally aren't happy with ketosis. There's another. But I think you meant in comparison to the fat lost through traditional calorie restriction, in which case I'd have to agree. With regard to comfort, I'd have to call you on this point, however. I'd much rather fast part of the day if it meant I got to feel FULL the rest of the day. There seem to be quite a few of us. But it doesn't matter - if you eat less than you need on average, you'll lose.I have wrote papers on intermittent fasting and there is nothing special about it. Fasting + workout is a bad idea. It leads to exaggerated muscle dedgration. Fasting in general can lead to many issues, and add no benefit to traditional calorie restriction.
Hmmm. Not quite. There's a threshold for meal size. Too small, and you don't get the appropriate incretin response to turn on the cascade of hormones (among them insulin) which signal satiety.I have had deep conversations with brad pilion the author of eat stop eat, and even he admits intermittent fasting is more about behaviour control than physiological adaptations.
Ah - you and I are arguing different points. I don't give a crap which way burns more fat or enhances thermogenesis to a greater degree. I only care about comfort.He was the muscle tech guy for so long that he learned how to conjure up the science to make anything seem great. It's what he did for eat stop eat and what Martin is doing for Leangains.com It is all about selling to both of them.
But do agree that 6 meals a day is over blown. It isn't to around 21 meals in a day do we start to get significant changes in kcal expenditure due to thermogenesis.
There. I've offered mine.There is lots of information that suits both sides of this particular debate, but I have not seen any logical information that suggest intermittent fasting is any better than calorie restriction.
As for fat people at a gym, that does not mean that they have signs of dysfunctional beta cells. It would be a very big leap to make that assumption. I doubt many medical professionals would make that there first hypothesis. But it can easily be said that they are likely to have insulin resistant receptors.
Not trying to sound rude here, but you are taking a lot of your personal information and treating it as if it is right for everyone without knowing their medical background. Its safer to provide general information to a healthy population than to start assuming everyone has what you do.
Nah - this is interesting. I'm not suffering any grief here; you and I have been polite to each other. Let's keep this going here. Berkhan is no guru to me; nobody is. But I've liked what's happened to my life since I've incorporated intermittent fasting and I thank Berhkan for helping dispel myths such as meal frequency.If you would like to continue this we can take it to PM's because I feel that it has kind of spiraled out of control in here.
Taking a protein shake before intense cardio can make me want toDude read this, http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/supplements/143179-protein-shake-neccessary.html#post2479910.
Best time is pre workout. 2nd best time is 1 hour post workout. Take your drink before/ during the workout to control cortisol and increase protein synthesis.