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Ron Artest not alone......

DFINEST

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Race, class changes dynamics of player-fan brawls
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004
By: TRACIE POWELL, BlackAmericaWeb.com

Cocky and foolish, Otto Blotz heckled loudly from the stands. Within minutes a player ???cockier and bigger ??? charged into the bleachers and pummeled the spectator upside the head, jabs bounded off the fan???s face like a golf ball from a rock, reported The New York Times.

The player wasn't Indiana Pacers forward Ron Artest. The year wasn't 2004. It was 1912, and the player who went after the heckler was Detroit Tiger baseball great Ty Cobb. Cobb, who was known as a bigot and as baseball's meanest player, clocked Blotz after he allegedly called him a half-nigger.

Cobb's penalty ??? a $200 fine and an eight-day suspension ??? was considered severe for his day. Artest, however, faces a suspension for the rest of the season and a loss of $5 million for going into the stands after a fan who threw a drink on him.

But while it is unclear whether black players who go after abusive fans face more severe penalties than white players who do the same thing, what is clear is that since Cobb's time, there have been numerous incidents in which players have left fields and courts to retaliate against rude fans in the stands. It was only in 2000, for example, when Los Angeles Dodgers coaches John Shelby and Rick Dempsey joined catcher Chad Kreuter and a slew of other Dodgers in going after Chicago Cubs fans at Wrigley Field who had been showering beer on them.

Ultimately, three coaches were suspended for 24 games, while nine players were suspended for 60 games.


But at least one expert said that economics and race play a part in the kind of fan rudeness that riled Artest.

There is a growing economic chasm between the players ??? 90 percent of them extremely wealthy blacks ??? and fans who are mostly white and certainly not as rich, Peter Roby, Director of the Center for the Study of Sport in Society at Northeastern University in Massachusetts, told BlackAmericaWeb.com.

"There???s just not as much in common with each other because the economics have gotten to the point where players no longer live in the community where the fans live, their kids no longer go to the same schools, and they no longer shop in the same grocery stores," Roby said. "And I think there???s some resentment on the part of fans with regard to that economic divide, especially those white fans that maybe feel like it???s not fair for a young, African American athlete to all of a sudden have all this kind of money. And in their view, flaunt that money and position by acting in ways that they don???t find acceptable.???

Roby, who is black, said the players also feel that they don't have to answer to fans.

"The players have gotten to a point where they???re so economically independent now, that they feel like they have the wherewithal to take matters into their own hands or lead their lives in ways that may not meet the expectations of the fans, because in their minds, they don???t need them," he said. "And that creates a recipe for the kinds of pent-up emotion and disregard that we saw on display in Detroit."

Roby, however, believes the punishment meted out by National Basketball Association Commissioner David Stern is justified.

"You have to send a strong message that that kind of behavior won???t be tolerated again and that it???s going to impact more than just yourself," he said. "I think the thing that people need to understand is that Ron Artest and his teammates put his team at an incredible disadvantage now for the rest of the season. So they???ve impacted the livelihood of the rest of their players, the franchise, and the fans."

As much as some people might suggest that Artest was right in charging after the fan who hit him, Roby said at some point he should have thought about the consequences of his actions and how his family, teammates and the league itself would be impacted.

Opinions vary on whether the response to the brawl was simply an overreaction to the fight and who is ultimately responsible. Some say Artest, others say the fan who threw the plastic cup at the player while he was down. But Jerry M. Lewis sees another culprit ??? the owners.

Lewis, a professor of sociology at Kent State University in Ohio and author of the forthcoming book, ???Fan Violence: An American Social Problem,??? said while he doesn???t excuse their behavior, fans and players aren???t ultimately at fault.

Owners typically lose money on sports teams, Lewis said, but ownership gives them status. To avoid losing more money than they???d like, owners sell hype and emotion to fill seats.

"They should be selling great athletes, but they???re not," he said. "They sell excitement, they sell emotion. The owners hand out these wands that you wave to distract players when their shooting a free throw. They hand out cards that you hold up when a player is introduced, these cards are typically insulting. Owners like fights because fights draw crowds. But there???s no dimmer switch on emotion. They try and get people as hyped up and they???re selling this with the scoreboards and the music. Then they start wringing their hands when something like this happens."

At least one owner is taking heed to the role they may play in creating an environment conducive to violence.

An advertising campaign for the Charlotte Bobcats, the team owned by Black Entertainment Television founder Robert Johnson, could become a casualty of what happened between the Pacers and Pistons. The commercials were scheduled to begin last week, but the team???s president said a climate change has taken place and the franchise is reviewing a decision to run the ads, a spokesman announced last week.

The television commercials feature a fiery Bobcats fan who appears around Charlotte with cardboard cutouts representing star players on opposing teams, including Kobe Bryant, Yao Ming and Shaquille O'Neal. Under the care of the character, however, the cutouts are plagued by various exaggerated acts of mayhem that render them smashed, wrecked, soaked, buried or ruined. The O'Neal cutout falls into a barbecue grill at a cookout and is incinerated.

Johnson???s office did not immediately return a phone call from BlackAmericaWeb.com to say whether a final decision on the commercials had been reached.

Player-fan violence is the rarest form of sports violence, said Lewis who has studied sports for years and is a fan. The most common form of violence takes place while fans are celebrating, most times don???t involve an opponent, and results in vandalism. The third kind of fan violence involves fans fighting fans.

Historically, most fan violence takes place at hockey and baseball games. But violence was very prevalent at basketball games in the 1970s, that is until Kermit Washington of the Los Angeles Lakers nearly destroyed Rudy Tomjanovich's face with a devastating punch. Tomjanovich, of the Houston Rockets, suffered fractures of the face and skull. His nose was broken, and he suffered a separated upper jaw, a concussion and lacerations around his mouth. He was leaking spinal fluid into his nose. He recovered and won a $3.2 million lawsuit.

Washington was fined $10,000 and suspended for 60 days (a loss of about $75,000 in pay), and saw his career plummet. He played with four teams over the next five years and retired in 1982 at age 30. And, at least for a while, fights at NBA games were virtually nonexistent.

Roby said American prisons are full of good people who made bad decisions in a fit of rage. But he and Lewis both agree that the Pistons-Pacers event is a rare, isolated incident.

"There are plenty of players who are law abiding, respectful citizens of their communities," Roby said. "And I don???t want people to lose sight of that. This isn???t a nightly occurrence on an NBA arena where players are going after fans. But it is still something that needs people???s attention."
 
In the paper on monday was an article about a coach for a kids soccer team, who apparently was sneaking in older players and not providing proof of age upon request. So the coach kicked a ref in the face because he was upset about being asked to prove the childrens ages, which they all have to do :rolleyes:
 
Mudge said:
In the paper on monday was an article about a coach for a kids soccer team, who apparently was sneaking in older players and not providing proof of age upon request. So the coach kicked a ref in the face because he was upset about being asked to prove the childrens ages, which they all have to do :rolleyes:

And when asked if I would do it again, I would. :D
 
It was 1912, and the player who went after the heckler was Detroit Tiger baseball great Ty Cobb.
1937.gif
 
The race card is always gonna get played, weather it applies or not. Shamefull. But I say, you throw something at a player, or player throws somthing at a fan, its assult. The fan should get the same fine as artest. If he can't afford it, than drop artest,s fine to what the fan can afford. You pick a fight, you could get your Face punched. You get what you get, stop crying.
The By stander that got hit, Let him go to court or Artest can settle. But I think the fans need to understand they should respect these guy's, it's why you are there. To watch the best of the best, perform for you. If the players are fined so bad they are affraid to defend themselves, the fans will do more. I say a fan throws something at you, run up in the stands and stomp a mudd hole in their A**!:rocker:
 
Last edited:
Roby said American prisons are full of good people who made bad decisions in a fit of rage.


This would apply to every criminal on the street then. People have to learn they can't do this................. period! That is what seperates decent people from the rest. They have the judgement to not do it.
 
The guy who threw the drink on him was a coward who deserved a smaking.

But for Artest, who gives a sh*t.

He's a multi-millionaire who would be the world's tallest janitor if it wasn't for the NBA.

Who cares?
 
cman said:
The race card is always gonna get played, weather it applies or not.
I know this is not the complete quote but I totally agree. There is nothing a heckler could say that to make a fu(king millionair climb into the stands for anything. I don't care what that fat drunk in the stand said to Artest! If anything these actions give credit and meaning to what Artest was called. If he hadn't always acted like one then he probably wouldn't be called one so much. I would bet anything that Ron Artest has had twice as many derogatory remarks made twords him by stupid rednecks in the stands than Jordan ever got. That is just because of the difference in the way the two carried themselves and acted. If you are gonna always act like a punk then people are gonna give you hell for it.:box:
 
Newt said:
I know this is not the complete quote but I totally agree. There is nothing a heckler could say that to make a fu(king millionair climb into the stands for anything. I don't care what that fat drunk in the stand said to Artest! If anything these actions give credit and meaning to what Artest was called. If he hadn't always acted like one then he probably wouldn't be called one so much. I would bet anything that Ron Artest has had twice as many derogatory remarks made twords him by stupid rednecks in the stands than Jordan ever got. That is just because of the difference in the way the two carried themselves and acted. If you are gonna always act like a punk then people are gonna give you hell for it.:box:
I don't know anything about artest. never heard of him before this. I don't watch sports, with the exception of GP motorcycle racing and boxing. I don't know nor care who was in the world series, or the superbowl. He may be a punk that deserves to be heckled, But you throw some thing at anyone, you get what you get. I wouldn't throw a beer at Mike tyson and then be surprised when he beat my A. I'd expect it. I know some of those players are real Idiots. I came from Phoenix and looked for Charles Barkley when I was out and about. I couldn't stand his racist punk ass remarks. If I would have seen him, We would have thrown down.:box: Win, lose, or draw, he would have went home sore as all get out, knowing he was in a fight with a man. And maybe he would think twice before saying White is weak. "WEAK THIS PUNK" POW.:rocker:
 
dg806 said:
Roby said American prisons are full of good people who made bad decisions in a fit of rage.


This would apply to every criminal on the street then. People have to learn they can't do this................. period! That is what seperates decent people from the rest. They have the judgement to not do it.

:thumbs:
 
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Newt said:
I know this is not the complete quote but I totally agree. There is nothing a heckler could say that to make a fu(king millionair climb into the stands for anything. I don't care what that fat drunk in the stand said to Artest! If anything these actions give credit and meaning to what Artest was called. If he hadn't always acted like one then he probably wouldn't be called one so much. I would bet anything that Ron Artest has had twice as many derogatory remarks made twords him by stupid rednecks in the stands than Jordan ever got. That is just because of the difference in the way the two carried themselves and acted. If you are gonna always act like a punk then people are gonna give you hell for it.:box:

That's correct but APPARENTLY,
ty cobb and Chad Krueter, Rick Dempsey and other Dodger players
didn't think so. Weren't these athletes PUNKS as well...

Especially cobb, who went into the stands after a fan who didn't throw anything at him, the fan just made a derogatory remark about him and his mother

I wonder what kind of music do they listen to;
I'll BET it's not RAP or Hip Hop music.
 
DFINEST said:
That's correct but APPARENTLY,
ty cobb and Chad Krueter, Rick Dempsey and other Dodger players
didn't think so. Weren't these athletes PUNKS as well...

Especially cobb, who went into the stands after a fan who didn't throw anything at him, the fan just made a derogatory remark about him and his mother

I wonder what kind of music do they listen to;
I'll BET it's not RAP or Hip Hop music.
Yes they probably are idiots. But you keep mentioning rap and hip hop. look at the awards with the knife fight. Has that happened at a country awards? no. cause country singers don't have to tell you over and over in their songs how tough they are due to an inferiority complex. Some rap is cool,Young MC Bust a move,fantastic song. But most of it is garbage, by garbage. And no I don't like country. I would listen to rap before country, especially if they had a vocabulary that included words with more than 4 letters. I bought the Fast and the furiouse sound track. not one song could you play with your kids in the room. Only an udejucated Idiot would let their kids here that trash. Is it a anti black thing? No. I remember when blacks were doing most of the really good music.in the 50s 60s 70s, not any more. the morrallity level of their music went to hell in a hand basket. If people do not hang around hip hop lovers, and then they see on the new's that they can't even recognize each other with an award, without knifing each other. thats all the exposure they have, what are they supposed to think of hip hop. Cosby even understands where people like me are comming from. Asking black people why do you run aroung calling each other niggers? Or if you are a Doctor and your making statments like. You aint gettin better? or ax the receptionist foe dat.
Would you have confidence in a doctor who talks like that?
I met a guy on the ship in the Navy who happened to be black. He wanted out of the Navy. He was supposed to go before the captain and plead his case. His supervisor informed him, if you do not have a means of earning a living on the outside its over, case closed. His response was. " I can git money! I'll rob mutha fuckin 7 11s if I gots to, but I can git money!"

What the Hell?
Most whites are never gonna see that kind of attituid and the attitude of the average Rapper with anything but pitty and disgust. So stop sellin were not buying.
Am I a racist? No. I have educated black freinds and we think alike. I guess they sold out. or maybe they have moved on and are ready to get ahead and be civilized.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1138989/posts

http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?DEPARTMENT_ID=6&SUBDEPARTMENT_ID=20&ITEM_ID=1319

http://www.soundgenerator.com/news/index.cfm?articleid=4464
Some african americans are up to speed, we all can be. If we are careful who we let teach us and our children.

Go to a gun show in a white neighborhood. one cop 4000 peeps 6000 guns no trouble:hmmm:

Lable me how you will. I base my beliefs on fact and real statistics.

My town prodominatly white, 100 years with no murders.
over the last 2 years the demographics have changed from 33 % black to 66% black. this year 2 hommocides. Black guy walking home with groceries, car full of black guys drives by, shoots and kills him. WTF:hmmm:

Why? Cause Of their skin color? Of course not. Cause they are brain washed by these Rap losers.( again, I like some of it, if it is Civilized art.)

I do not understand why you would defend music that promotes killing. I listen to rock. When I hear an idiot singing about " being your back door man.
I turn the channel. I hear anti woman lyrics, Like "I want a woman who wont drive me crazy, i want a woman who knows the meaning of, hey hit the highway" I hit scan. Trashy people listen to trash. You are affected by what you listen to on a daily basis.

Crawl out of the gutter and join Civilization.
civ·i·li·za·tion ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (s
ibreve.gif
v
lprime.gif
schwa.gif
-l
ibreve.gif
-z
amacr.gif
prime.gif
sh
schwa.gif
n)
n.
  1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.
de·gen·er·ate ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (d
ibreve.gif
-j
ebreve.gif
n
prime.gif
schwa.gif
r-
ibreve.gif
t)
adj.
  1. Having declined, as in function or nature, from a former or original state: a degenerate form of an ancient folk art.
  2. Having fallen to an inferior or undesirable state, especially in mental or moral qualities.
In civilization you don't shoot people, or stab them. The vibe Awards sounds more like Degenerate.

Badda bing.
P.S.
Im Two thirds White and One third Minority.
So no race cards please.:finger:
 
Beuller? Beuller? Anyone? Anyone?:rolleyes:
 
No snippy comebacks? :hmmm:

Digesting it?:hmmm:

Think i'm right?:thumb:

WHAT UP DOG?:D
 
Thank you. Never guess I gots aGED wood ya?
 
min0 lee said:
Nicely put. :thumb:
Where has Max been? I kinda miss his, Cheerfully offensive remarks.:hmmm:
 
He's still in my closet....
closet.gif


It's time he comes out of the closet though...:yes:
 
dg806 said:
Roby said American prisons are full of good people who made bad decisions in a fit of rage.


This would apply to every criminal on the street then. People have to learn they can't do this................. period! That is what seperates decent people from the rest. They have the judgement to not do it.
DG nailed it down here very well.

People with privledge are not above the comon man in spite of their desire to be so. Artest beat down the wrong guy and did not even give a shit about that fact. His statement afterwords showed no remorse at all but rather offered justification as though it could and will happen again. He sould have been made an example of. If after he has shown he is not going to conduct himself as decent people do he should get the boot. Since he was not held accountable ... and no a 70 game slap on the wrist is not anything he actually cares about ... the people in charge of keeping him on the court should then be held responsible for his actions.
 
BoneCrusher said:
People with privledge are not above the comon man in spite of their desire to be so.

That is only part of the problem. People put these professional athletes on a pedestal and expect them to act differently than the average person. A lot of those guys are not that intelligent and people give them more credit than they deserve. I don't understand why people act so surprised when athletes/celebrates do these types of things, get arrested, etc. as if they are a special breed of humans that are above this sort of behavior.
 
BoneCrusher said:
DG nailed it down here very well.

People with privledge are not above the comon man in spite of their desire to be so. Artest beat down the wrong guy and did not even give a shit about that fact. His statement afterwords showed no remorse at all but rather offered justification as though it could and will happen again. He sould have been made an example of. If after he has shown he is not going to conduct himself as decent people do he should get the boot. Since he was not held accountable ... and no a 70 game slap on the wrist is not anything he actually cares about ... the people in charge of keeping him on the court should then be held responsible for his actions.
I would like to be the wrong guy that got pummled though.:D $$$$$$$
Chaaaaaaaaachingggggggggggggg$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.:rocker:
 
cman said:
Yes they probably are idiots. But you keep mentioning rap and hip hop. look at the awards with the knife fight. Has that happened at a country awards? no. cause country singers don't have to tell you over and over in their songs how tough they are due to an inferiority complex. Some rap is cool,Young MC Bust a move,fantastic song. But most of it is garbage, by garbage. And no I don't like country. I would listen to rap before country, especially if they had a vocabulary that included words with more than 4 letters. I bought the Fast and the furiouse sound track. not one song could you play with your kids in the room. Only an udejucated Idiot would let their kids here that trash. Is it a anti black thing? No. I remember when blacks were doing most of the really good music.in the 50s 60s 70s, not any more. the morrallity level of their music went to hell in a hand basket. If people do not hang around hip hop lovers, and then they see on the new's that they can't even recognize each other with an award, without knifing each other. thats all the exposure they have, what are they supposed to think of hip hop. Cosby even understands where people like me are comming from. Asking black people why do you run aroung calling each other niggers? Or if you are a Doctor and your making statments like. You aint gettin better? or ax the receptionist foe dat.
Would you have confidence in a doctor who talks like that?
I met a guy on the ship in the Navy who happened to be black. He wanted out of the Navy. He was supposed to go before the captain and plead his case. His supervisor informed him, if you do not have a means of earning a living on the outside its over, case closed. His response was. " I can git money! I'll rob mutha fuckin 7 11s if I gots to, but I can git money!"

What the Hell?
Most whites are never gonna see that kind of attituid and the attitude of the average Rapper with anything but pitty and disgust. So stop sellin were not buying.
Am I a racist? No. I have educated black freinds and we think alike. I guess they sold out. or maybe they have moved on and are ready to get ahead and be civilized.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1138989/posts

http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?DEPARTMENT_ID=6&SUBDEPARTMENT_ID=20&ITEM_ID=1319

http://www.soundgenerator.com/news/index.cfm?articleid=4464
Some african americans are up to speed, we all can be. If we are careful who we let teach us and our children.

Go to a gun show in a white neighborhood. one cop 4000 peeps 6000 guns no trouble:hmmm:

Lable me how you will. I base my beliefs on fact and real statistics.

My town prodominatly white, 100 years with no murders.
over the last 2 years the demographics have changed from 33 % black to 66% black. this year 2 hommocides. Black guy walking home with groceries, car full of black guys drives by, shoots and kills him. WTF:hmmm:

Why? Cause Of their skin color? Of course not. Cause they are brain washed by these Rap losers.( again, I like some of it, if it is Civilized art.)

I do not understand why you would defend music that promotes killing. I listen to rock. When I hear an idiot singing about " being your back door man.
I turn the channel. I hear anti woman lyrics, Like "I want a woman who wont drive me crazy, i want a woman who knows the meaning of, hey hit the highway" I hit scan. Trashy people listen to trash. You are affected by what you listen to on a daily basis.

Crawl out of the gutter and join Civilization.
civ·i·li·za·tion ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (s
ibreve.gif
v
lprime.gif
schwa.gif
-l
ibreve.gif
-z
amacr.gif
prime.gif
sh
schwa.gif
n)
n.
  1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.
de·gen·er·ate ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (d
ibreve.gif
-j
ebreve.gif
n
prime.gif
schwa.gif
r-
ibreve.gif
t)
adj.
  1. Having declined, as in function or nature, from a former or original state: a degenerate form of an ancient folk art.
  2. Having fallen to an inferior or undesirable state, especially in mental or moral qualities.
In civilization you don't shoot people, or stab them. The vibe Awards sounds more like Degenerate.

Badda bing.
P.S.
Im Two thirds White and One third Minority.
So no race cards please.:finger:

I wasn't pointing a RACE card,
I was stating the fact that ALOT of individuals,
including SOME on this forum who
were ATTRIBUTING the actions
of Ron Artest and his fellow NBA players actions
were due to the fact that the NBA has
supposedly embraced the hip hop culture....

Well, as you see, I have listed instances where
athletes, who just happen to be non - Afro-American,
professionals in OTHER pro sports leagues who
have ventured into the stands after irate fans....

I was stating the obvious as BLAME
the individual for their actions,
not a musical culture.....

I detest the horrible RAP that you are talking about
but there are some GOOD rap artist in the game
( Will Smith, LL Cool J, Kanye West) and there
is even some Gospel RAP
(The Cross Movement, Gospel Gangsta's or visit HolyHipHop.Com)

Just so that you know, MOST of the DETESTABLE RAP music
that you are referring too, visit any concert,
any music store, or any vehicle rolling down the street
and you will see that there
are just as many WHITE people purchasing/listening
to this RAP as there are AfroAmericans.

Just so you know,
EMINEM is white and one of the RAPPERS
who make the so called garbage rap music.....
Tim McGraw is white and is currently
on a hit song with the Rap Artist
NELLY ( you know Nelly don't you, "It's Gettin Hot In Here" )
 
D we get along OK so don't take me wrong here. When you went on to say you were not playing the race card you went from a music based culture "Rap" to a race based culture "NON_AfroAmerican".
I wasn't pointing a RACE card,
I was stating the fact that ALOT of individuals,
including SOME on this forum who
were ATTRIBUTING the actions
of Ron Artest and his fellow NBA players actions
were due to the fact that the NBA has
supposedly embraced the hip hop culture....

Well, as you see, I have listed instances where
athletes, who just happen to be non - Afro-American,
professionals in OTHER pro sports leagues who
have ventured into the stands after irate fans....
Not baggin and ya man but you contradicted yourself. Either yo go by race or you leave pigmentation out of the conversation. By definition you cannot do both without being racist IMHO.
 
DFINEST said:
I wasn't pointing a RACE card,
I was stating the fact that ALOT of individuals,
including SOME on this forum who
were ATTRIBUTING the actions
of Ron Artest and his fellow NBA players actions
were due to the fact that the NBA has
supposedly embraced the hip hop culture....

Well, as you see, I have listed instances where
athletes, who just happen to be non - Afro-American,
professionals in OTHER pro sports leagues who
have ventured into the stands after irate fans....

I was stating the obvious as BLAME
the individual for their actions,
not a musical culture.....

I detest the horrible RAP that you are talking about
but there are some GOOD rap artist in the game
( Will Smith, LL Cool J, Kanye West) and there
is even some Gospel RAP
(The Cross Movement, Gospel Gangsta's or visit HolyHipHop.Com)

Just so that you know, MOST of the DETESTABLE RAP music
that you are referring too, visit any concert,
any music store, or any vehicle rolling down the street
and you will see that there
are just as many WHITE people purchasing/listening
to this RAP as there are AfroAmericans.

Just so you know,
EMINEM is white and one of the RAPPERS
who make the so called garbage rap music.....
Tim McGraw is white and is currently
on a hit song with the Rap Artist
NELLY ( you know Nelly don't you, "It's Gettin Hot In Here" )
Oh we don't disagree. I agree with all that. That is why I said, its not their color. we are affected by what we listen to. I like two of emiem's songs the rest is too trashy. I know to that the whites that listen to that crap think like that too. I know white peeps that do it and fit the profile. You can't listen to music that you don't embrace. its not in us. if you listen to it you can live withit and its content.
I would like to hear some of the christian rap. too see if i like it. I just can never find good stuff. I like will smiths music too. not trashy, don't agree w/ his polotics but he is a good actor and singer.
It is not the beat that makes music evil or trashy. its the content. Just like the bible verse that says "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

You can put trashy lyrics to the tune of Amazing grace and it will be trash. Put clean lyrics to a rap beat and you get good rap.
Peace bro.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat012.html#34

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat015.html#11
 
cfs3 said:
Music is a symptom, not a cause.
I would say it is both. you listen to it as a symptom, and as you brain wash your self. things you would not do at one time you will eventually talk yourself into because of the constant bombardment on the brain. But it is still your choice of actions. I don't agree with people who blame their actions on everyone but themselves. I smoked crack before. I don't blame the guy who offered it to me. I chose. and I chose to leave it behind, after some extensive research, ya ya it was in the name of science, ya.:hmmm:
 
BoneCrusher said:
D we get along OK so don't take me wrong here. When you went on to say you were not playing the race card you went from a music based culture "Rap" to a race based culture "NON_AfroAmerican".

Not baggin and ya man but you contradicted yourself. Either yo go by race or you leave pigmentation out of the conversation. By definition you cannot do both without being racist IMHO.

BC, as far as I'm concerned, we're STILL ok.....

If you look at ALL of my previous posts
prior to the one that you're questioning, you won't
find any mention of RACE.....

I responded with RACE once CMAN introduced it into
the equation

Since you think my post may have been leaning toward
racism, then here is another athlete who
physically vented at a fan....

One of the 50 greatest NBA players of all time,
Sir Charles Barkley, Afro American and conservative,
once spit on a fan ( unfotunately it was a
little girl and not the actual fan he wanted to hit)

Was his actions based on the music he listens to,
I think not....

As DG stated earlier and later
reiterated by Cman and yourself,
YOU are accountable for your own actions...

I grew up with a Father who cursed repeatedly
and after eighteen years of that constant bombardment
of swearing, I became an adult
and don't swear no where near the magnitude
that my father does.

BC, you're still cool with me brother :thumbup:
 
BoneCrusher said:
DG nailed it down here very well.

People with privledge are not above the comon man in spite of their desire to be so. Artest beat down the wrong guy and did not even give a shit about that fact. His statement afterwords showed no remorse at all but rather offered justification as though it could and will happen again. He sould have been made an example of. If after he has shown he is not going to conduct himself as decent people do he should get the boot. Since he was not held accountable ... and no a 70 game slap on the wrist is not anything he actually cares about ... the people in charge of keeping him on the court should then be held responsible for his actions.

And conversely, the people who allow IRATE FANS
assault athletes should be held accountable if they
don't do anything to the fan...

Not justifying Artest going into the stands BUT
if you recall, Artest was lying on the media
table when the fan initiated the assault
by throwing the cup of beer onto him.

The fan by the way has just been releaased from
jail and has a couple of DWI convictions under his belt
and the only media person that has publicized this is
ESPN's Dan Patrick.

What would you do if someone threw
an unwelcomed cup of ANYTHING onto you?
 
cman said:
I would say it is both. you listen to it as a symptom, and as you brain wash your self. things you would not do at one time you will eventually talk yourself into because of the constant bombardment on the brain.

that is a personal opinion, not a scientific fact...
 
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