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ubercoach
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Iliopsoas may be the culprit, not periformis...
The iliopsoas is mainly a hip flexor and weak lateral rotator, and shortening will result in pulling the iliac bone anterior-inferior, increasing the lumbosacral angle and increasing lumbar lordosis.
Through the years many doctors within chiropractic and medicine have stressed the importance of the iliopsoas in relation to low back pain and viscera of the human body.1-8,10,11 Michele1 wrote a 550 page textbook, Iliopsoas, in which he relates psoas spasm to pelvic tilt, exaggerated lumbar lordosis, compensatory dorsal kyphosis, back pain, sacroiliac dysfunction, degenerative hip arthrosis, degenerative disc disease, spondylolysis, spondylolisthesis, scoliosis, malposture, and meralgia paraesthetica, among others. He stated, "Any and all defects of the spine and the hip joint structures should be evaluated in terms of disturbance of function of the iliopsoas."
Chronic psoas shortening and weakness may occur due to sleeping in the fetal position, exercise programs emphasizing repetitive hip flexion, and sedentary life styles. Most sports and daily activity emphasize a forward orientation and repetitive psoas contraction without offsetting stretching.2 Sypher3 feels that since the psoas is close to the axis of flexion and extension of the lumbar portion of the spine, it must compensate for imbalance between anterior abdominal muscles and posterior spinal muscles to stabilize the lumbar spine. Goodheart feels that psoas weakness is more common than hypertonicity.4 Nachemson feels that a chronically contracted psoas adds to the gravitational forces on the lumbar discs.5
The Psoas Syndrome
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We must constantly strive to develop a functional examination that touches all the bases. Since I wrote about the piriformis syndrome in the June 21 and July 19 issue of Dynamic Chiropractic I have received numerous letters relating to increased results. Just as examination of the piriformis should be a routine part of our examination, so should examination of the iliopsoas.
The iliopsoas is mainly a hip flexor and weak lateral rotator, and shortening will result in pulling the iliac bone anterior-inferior, increasing the lumbosacral angle and increasing lumbar lordosis.
Through the years many doctors within chiropractic and medicine have stressed the importance of the iliopsoas in relation to low back pain and viscera of the human body.1-8,10,11 Michele1 wrote a 550 page textbook, Iliopsoas, in which he relates psoas spasm to pelvic tilt, exaggerated lumbar lordosis, compensatory dorsal kyphosis, back pain, sacroiliac dysfunction, degenerative hip arthrosis, degenerative disc disease, spondylolysis, spondylolisthesis, scoliosis, malposture, and meralgia paraesthetica, among others. He stated, "Any and all defects of the spine and the hip joint structures should be evaluated in terms of disturbance of function of the iliopsoas."
Chronic psoas shortening and weakness may occur due to sleeping in the fetal position, exercise programs emphasizing repetitive hip flexion, and sedentary life styles. Most sports and daily activity emphasize a forward orientation and repetitive psoas contraction without offsetting stretching.2 Sypher3 feels that since the psoas is close to the axis of flexion and extension of the lumbar portion of the spine, it must compensate for imbalance between anterior abdominal muscles and posterior spinal muscles to stabilize the lumbar spine. Goodheart feels that psoas weakness is more common than hypertonicity.4 Nachemson feels that a chronically contracted psoas adds to the gravitational forces on the lumbar discs.5
Bachrach et al.2 states that the patient with a psoas syndrome may present with pain at the thoracolumbar, lower lumbar or sacroiliac area, sometimes referring pain to the knee. They state that the pain is never midline and is often relieved by sitting. According to Cailliet6 the anterior thigh pain associated with an acute scoliosis due to a disc herniation is often due to a compensating iliopsoas spasm splintering the spine away from the irritation. With a unilateral psoas spasm, the patient might be flexed forward with the lumbar spine drawn downward, forward, and rotated to the opposite side. The hip might be externally rotated with the foot everted.1
Functional examination may reveal, with the patient standing and the examiner contacting both PSISs, a higher PSIS on the contracted side and a more forward movement of the PSIS on the side of involvement during lumbar flexion. Durianova7 examined 30 patients with psoas spasm and found pain in the low back, in the shoulder region, sacroiliac joint, and radiation in the L5/S1 segments. He found pain on lumbar extension, trunk rotation, and hip flexion, with spinal segmental involvement at the thoracolumbar and craniocervical junction. With the patient prone, hip extension would be decreased and painful.
Patient lies at end of table with uninvolved right hip flexed. Examiner extends the left knee and flexes left hip as far as patient will allow. Examiner's left hand is placed on patient's left ASIS in order to palpate for anterior rotation of the innominate. Examiner than allows the left leg to drop (towards extension). If examiner palpates ASIS movement before the leg reaches 30 degrees from the horizontal, there is significant hip flexor tightness. The hip should be able to extend 20 to 30 degrees below the table with ASIS movement.
Treatment of a shortened iliopsoas is to stretch the muscle. (Fig. 2) A painless contract/relax method may also be used. Examination of the iliopsoas for trigger points may be valuable. Trigger points may be located just lateral to the rectus abdominis up to the xyphoid process, at the femoral triangle or at the iliac fossa where the iliacus originates. Back pain is usually felt vertically along the extensor muscles parallel to the spine. Stretching and splaying can be done as positioned in Fig. 2 from the xyphoid down the psoas to the thigh, except that the thigh should be slightly abducted and the knee internally rotated to create optimum stretch.8
A home stretching exercise (Fig 3) may be utilized maintaining the stretch 20 to 30 seconds for 10 to 20 reps as often as possible during the day. The normal side could be raised to a height of two to 2-1/2 feet on a stool depending on the height of the patient. The shortened side can be extended about three feet behind with the foot in slight internal rotation. The patient can also put his hand on the posterior buttock of the involved side and apply added pressure. The patient should definitely feel the psoas stretch, possibly a feeling of discomfort, but not pain.
The psoas muscle should be tested for strength with the patient supine and the hip flexed approximately 30 degrees. Examiner resists against the anterior distal femur. There may be pain in psoas tendinitis or iliopectineal bursitis and weakness with pain in avulsion fracture of the lesser trochanter, psoas rupture or upper femur metastasis. Weakness without pain may incicate L1, L2 or L3 nerve root involvement. Cyrias12 mentions that chronic psoas strain may remain for years unless treated by friction massage below the inguinal ligament, medial to the sartorius.
Patients who do sit-ups from a supine to a full-flexed position are really strengthening their iliopsoas rather than their abdominal muscles. They are creating an increased lordosis during the sit-up. The crunch method of sit-ups with the spine flat on the ground and the knees flexed over a chair is the recommended method.
During the first 30 degrees of hip flexion there is little or no activity in the iliopsoas. After that range there is greatly increased activity.9
References
Michele AA: Iliopsoas. Springfield, Ill: Charles C. Thomas, 1962.
Bachrach RM, Micelotta J, Winuk C: The relationship of low ba
ck pain to psoas insufficiency. J Orth Med. 13:34-40, 1991.
Sypher F: Pain in the back: A general theory. J Intl Coll Surg., 333:718-728, 1960.
Goodheart GJ: Collected Published Articles and Reprints. Montpelier, Williams County Publishing, 1969.
Nachemson AL: Electromyographic studies on the vertebral portion of the psoas muscle. Acta Orthopaedica Scandinavica, 37:177-190, 1966.
Cailliet R: Low Back Pain Syndrome. Philadelphia: FA Davis, 84: 1962.
Durianova J: Psoas spasm in the clinical picture of low back pain. In: Lewit K, et al., eds. Rehabilitacia, Proceedings of the IVth Congress Prague: International Federation of Manual Medicine, 1975.
Travell JG, Daita B: Myofascial pain syndromes: The Travell trigger-point tapes, myofascial pain syndromes of the low back and hip. Baltimore, Maryland, Williams & Wikins, Electronic Media.
Basmajian JV, Deluca CJ: Muscles Alive: Their Function Revealed by Electromyography. ed 5. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins, 311: 1985.
Fox EA: Let us consider the importance of psoas muscle contraction. J Natl Chiro Assoc., 26(7):69-74, 1956.
Randeria JP: The role of the psoas muscles in low back pathology. Manuelle Medizin, 4:85-87, 1974.
Cyriax J: Textbook of Orthopaedic Medicine: Diagnosis of Soft Tissue Lesions. ed. 8. London: Bailliere Tindall, 1:389, 1982.
Warren Hammer, M.S., D.C., D.A.B.C.O.
Norwalk, Connecticut
For more info:
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/10/03/25.html
Ubercoach
The iliopsoas is mainly a hip flexor and weak lateral rotator, and shortening will result in pulling the iliac bone anterior-inferior, increasing the lumbosacral angle and increasing lumbar lordosis.
Through the years many doctors within chiropractic and medicine have stressed the importance of the iliopsoas in relation to low back pain and viscera of the human body.1-8,10,11 Michele1 wrote a 550 page textbook, Iliopsoas, in which he relates psoas spasm to pelvic tilt, exaggerated lumbar lordosis, compensatory dorsal kyphosis, back pain, sacroiliac dysfunction, degenerative hip arthrosis, degenerative disc disease, spondylolysis, spondylolisthesis, scoliosis, malposture, and meralgia paraesthetica, among others. He stated, "Any and all defects of the spine and the hip joint structures should be evaluated in terms of disturbance of function of the iliopsoas."
Chronic psoas shortening and weakness may occur due to sleeping in the fetal position, exercise programs emphasizing repetitive hip flexion, and sedentary life styles. Most sports and daily activity emphasize a forward orientation and repetitive psoas contraction without offsetting stretching.2 Sypher3 feels that since the psoas is close to the axis of flexion and extension of the lumbar portion of the spine, it must compensate for imbalance between anterior abdominal muscles and posterior spinal muscles to stabilize the lumbar spine. Goodheart feels that psoas weakness is more common than hypertonicity.4 Nachemson feels that a chronically contracted psoas adds to the gravitational forces on the lumbar discs.5
The Psoas Syndrome
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We must constantly strive to develop a functional examination that touches all the bases. Since I wrote about the piriformis syndrome in the June 21 and July 19 issue of Dynamic Chiropractic I have received numerous letters relating to increased results. Just as examination of the piriformis should be a routine part of our examination, so should examination of the iliopsoas.
The iliopsoas is mainly a hip flexor and weak lateral rotator, and shortening will result in pulling the iliac bone anterior-inferior, increasing the lumbosacral angle and increasing lumbar lordosis.
Through the years many doctors within chiropractic and medicine have stressed the importance of the iliopsoas in relation to low back pain and viscera of the human body.1-8,10,11 Michele1 wrote a 550 page textbook, Iliopsoas, in which he relates psoas spasm to pelvic tilt, exaggerated lumbar lordosis, compensatory dorsal kyphosis, back pain, sacroiliac dysfunction, degenerative hip arthrosis, degenerative disc disease, spondylolysis, spondylolisthesis, scoliosis, malposture, and meralgia paraesthetica, among others. He stated, "Any and all defects of the spine and the hip joint structures should be evaluated in terms of disturbance of function of the iliopsoas."
Chronic psoas shortening and weakness may occur due to sleeping in the fetal position, exercise programs emphasizing repetitive hip flexion, and sedentary life styles. Most sports and daily activity emphasize a forward orientation and repetitive psoas contraction without offsetting stretching.2 Sypher3 feels that since the psoas is close to the axis of flexion and extension of the lumbar portion of the spine, it must compensate for imbalance between anterior abdominal muscles and posterior spinal muscles to stabilize the lumbar spine. Goodheart feels that psoas weakness is more common than hypertonicity.4 Nachemson feels that a chronically contracted psoas adds to the gravitational forces on the lumbar discs.5
Bachrach et al.2 states that the patient with a psoas syndrome may present with pain at the thoracolumbar, lower lumbar or sacroiliac area, sometimes referring pain to the knee. They state that the pain is never midline and is often relieved by sitting. According to Cailliet6 the anterior thigh pain associated with an acute scoliosis due to a disc herniation is often due to a compensating iliopsoas spasm splintering the spine away from the irritation. With a unilateral psoas spasm, the patient might be flexed forward with the lumbar spine drawn downward, forward, and rotated to the opposite side. The hip might be externally rotated with the foot everted.1
Functional examination may reveal, with the patient standing and the examiner contacting both PSISs, a higher PSIS on the contracted side and a more forward movement of the PSIS on the side of involvement during lumbar flexion. Durianova7 examined 30 patients with psoas spasm and found pain in the low back, in the shoulder region, sacroiliac joint, and radiation in the L5/S1 segments. He found pain on lumbar extension, trunk rotation, and hip flexion, with spinal segmental involvement at the thoracolumbar and craniocervical junction. With the patient prone, hip extension would be decreased and painful.
Patient lies at end of table with uninvolved right hip flexed. Examiner extends the left knee and flexes left hip as far as patient will allow. Examiner's left hand is placed on patient's left ASIS in order to palpate for anterior rotation of the innominate. Examiner than allows the left leg to drop (towards extension). If examiner palpates ASIS movement before the leg reaches 30 degrees from the horizontal, there is significant hip flexor tightness. The hip should be able to extend 20 to 30 degrees below the table with ASIS movement.
Treatment of a shortened iliopsoas is to stretch the muscle. (Fig. 2) A painless contract/relax method may also be used. Examination of the iliopsoas for trigger points may be valuable. Trigger points may be located just lateral to the rectus abdominis up to the xyphoid process, at the femoral triangle or at the iliac fossa where the iliacus originates. Back pain is usually felt vertically along the extensor muscles parallel to the spine. Stretching and splaying can be done as positioned in Fig. 2 from the xyphoid down the psoas to the thigh, except that the thigh should be slightly abducted and the knee internally rotated to create optimum stretch.8
A home stretching exercise (Fig 3) may be utilized maintaining the stretch 20 to 30 seconds for 10 to 20 reps as often as possible during the day. The normal side could be raised to a height of two to 2-1/2 feet on a stool depending on the height of the patient. The shortened side can be extended about three feet behind with the foot in slight internal rotation. The patient can also put his hand on the posterior buttock of the involved side and apply added pressure. The patient should definitely feel the psoas stretch, possibly a feeling of discomfort, but not pain.
The psoas muscle should be tested for strength with the patient supine and the hip flexed approximately 30 degrees. Examiner resists against the anterior distal femur. There may be pain in psoas tendinitis or iliopectineal bursitis and weakness with pain in avulsion fracture of the lesser trochanter, psoas rupture or upper femur metastasis. Weakness without pain may incicate L1, L2 or L3 nerve root involvement. Cyrias12 mentions that chronic psoas strain may remain for years unless treated by friction massage below the inguinal ligament, medial to the sartorius.
Patients who do sit-ups from a supine to a full-flexed position are really strengthening their iliopsoas rather than their abdominal muscles. They are creating an increased lordosis during the sit-up. The crunch method of sit-ups with the spine flat on the ground and the knees flexed over a chair is the recommended method.
During the first 30 degrees of hip flexion there is little or no activity in the iliopsoas. After that range there is greatly increased activity.9
References
Michele AA: Iliopsoas. Springfield, Ill: Charles C. Thomas, 1962.
Bachrach RM, Micelotta J, Winuk C: The relationship of low ba
ck pain to psoas insufficiency. J Orth Med. 13:34-40, 1991.
Sypher F: Pain in the back: A general theory. J Intl Coll Surg., 333:718-728, 1960.
Goodheart GJ: Collected Published Articles and Reprints. Montpelier, Williams County Publishing, 1969.
Nachemson AL: Electromyographic studies on the vertebral portion of the psoas muscle. Acta Orthopaedica Scandinavica, 37:177-190, 1966.
Cailliet R: Low Back Pain Syndrome. Philadelphia: FA Davis, 84: 1962.
Durianova J: Psoas spasm in the clinical picture of low back pain. In: Lewit K, et al., eds. Rehabilitacia, Proceedings of the IVth Congress Prague: International Federation of Manual Medicine, 1975.
Travell JG, Daita B: Myofascial pain syndromes: The Travell trigger-point tapes, myofascial pain syndromes of the low back and hip. Baltimore, Maryland, Williams & Wikins, Electronic Media.
Basmajian JV, Deluca CJ: Muscles Alive: Their Function Revealed by Electromyography. ed 5. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins, 311: 1985.
Fox EA: Let us consider the importance of psoas muscle contraction. J Natl Chiro Assoc., 26(7):69-74, 1956.
Randeria JP: The role of the psoas muscles in low back pathology. Manuelle Medizin, 4:85-87, 1974.
Cyriax J: Textbook of Orthopaedic Medicine: Diagnosis of Soft Tissue Lesions. ed. 8. London: Bailliere Tindall, 1:389, 1982.
Warren Hammer, M.S., D.C., D.A.B.C.O.
Norwalk, Connecticut
For more info:
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/10/03/25.html
Ubercoach
Like pony boy, piriformis syndrome is certainly a possibility. I've been experiencing a bit of that myself recently. I just stretch the shit out of it every time I feel a little something and I'm good to go. It never bothers me when I'm warmed up working out. It usually bugs me when sitting for a bit then getting up. It's pretty mild though.
that is a good point....
the only thing that I would change is saying the illiopsoas. I would drop the illio (or illiacus) from the name in this case (which you then do after the first sentences anyway, so I don't know what the fuck I am really talking about)...The psoas seems to be the real culprit here because it is the only hip flexor (of which there are 5) that has direct attachment points to the spine. The others (TFL, Illiacus, Sartorius and Rectus femoris) all attach at the illiac crest (shortly after that the psoas joins into the illiacus, hence the name).
A weak psoas will cause one to flex the trunk when they actually need to be flexing the hip (psoas working above 90 degrees of hip flexion).
In her great book Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement Impairment Syndrome's, top noth physical therpist Shirley Sharmann goes through a number of tests for this as well as ways to solve the problem. I tweaked my back today and just doing some easy foam roller on my lumbar and some psaos activation work, I feel a ton better!
Mike Boyle wrote a great article summarizing Sharmman's findings....I am pretty sure I have posted it before but here it is again.
You could be right about the psoas being his problem...It could still be piraformis syndrome though. He would need some manual muscle testing to see what is tight and what is weak to know for sure.
the only thing that I would change is saying the illiopsoas. I would drop the illio (or illiacus) from the name in this case (which you then do after the first sentences anyway, so I don't know what the fuck I am really talking about)...The psoas seems to be the real culprit here because it is the only hip flexor (of which there are 5) that has direct attachment points to the spine. The others (TFL, Illiacus, Sartorius and Rectus femoris) all attach at the illiac crest (shortly after that the psoas joins into the illiacus, hence the name).
A weak psoas will cause one to flex the trunk when they actually need to be flexing the hip (psoas working above 90 degrees of hip flexion).
In her great book Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement Impairment Syndrome's, top noth physical therpist Shirley Sharmann goes through a number of tests for this as well as ways to solve the problem. I tweaked my back today and just doing some easy foam roller on my lumbar and some psaos activation work, I feel a ton better!
Mike Boyle wrote a great article summarizing Sharmman's findings....I am pretty sure I have posted it before but here it is again.
You could be right about the psoas being his problem...It could still be piraformis syndrome though. He would need some manual muscle testing to see what is tight and what is weak to know for sure.
Sounds just like my back!!
If it does ache a little then I can just do a standing hamstring stretch and it's gone immediately....not to say it won't be back...
I had a bulged disk from getting twisted on a jet ski that pinched my sciatic nerve a couple of years ago. The pain was intense and I lost all strength in my right leg. I couldnt stand on the ball of my foot without assistance and my right leg just dragged when I walked. It didnt affect my upper body workout much but lower was out of the question. After a year of stretching, epidurals, etc. I decided to talk to a neurosurgen. 3 days before my appointment for consultation, 85% of the problem just disappeared as I was walking (with my right leg dragging ) to the gym. It is probably at 97% now, not quite as strong in as my left leg/calf and I often get these quick cramps in my right calf that will go away as soon as I put presure on it.
Hopefully yours will disappear on it's own in time.
Hopefully yours will disappear on it's own in time.
This is quite common with sciatic pain... it eventually seems to go away (although it can take a long time)
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Ubercoach, I have done the kickovers you prescribed and there is no pain. There is pain, however, if I straighten my leg instead of leaving it at 90 degrees.
So case in point, when I lie on my back, knees bent, if I extend my right leg straight out and slowly raise it, theres my pain. If I hold it, the pain subsides until I raise it higher.
Those kickovers felt like knee raises, but on the ground. I did 2 sets of 20 reps today pretty slowly. My abs were screaming, but thats not what I was paying attention to.
My stretch page is gone. I only know of ONE hip flexor stretch and ONE psoas stretch. Anyone have a site with other stretches that can be work friendly?
Ubercoach, that last long responce will be read once I ge to work, I am late as it is and I want to be able to read it without being rushed.
Thanks again guys. This shit is so fucking annoying I either want to cry or throw one of these trainers that wear makeup and dye their hair through a wall. (theyre men)
So case in point, when I lie on my back, knees bent, if I extend my right leg straight out and slowly raise it, theres my pain. If I hold it, the pain subsides until I raise it higher.
Those kickovers felt like knee raises, but on the ground. I did 2 sets of 20 reps today pretty slowly. My abs were screaming, but thats not what I was paying attention to.
My stretch page is gone. I only know of ONE hip flexor stretch and ONE psoas stretch. Anyone have a site with other stretches that can be work friendly?
Ubercoach, that last long responce will be read once I ge to work, I am late as it is and I want to be able to read it without being rushed.
Thanks again guys. This shit is so fucking annoying I either want to cry or throw one of these trainers that wear makeup and dye their hair through a wall. (theyre men)
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Sorry guys, but not true. I agree the symptoms are similar but a bulging disc has not ruptured yet, wheras a herniated disc has. A herniated disc has ruptured the outer casing and can be from moderate to quite severe depending on the degree. A bulging disc is just that - bulging out and pressing on the nerve. I agree that they are similar but they are not the same thing.
Not according to my doctor.
The following is taken from http://www.spine-health.com/topics/cd/d_difference/diff01.html
"There are many different terms to describe spinal disc pathology and associated pain, such as ???herniated disc???, ???pinched nerve???, and ???bulging disc???, and all are used differently by different healthcare practitioners. Unfortunately, there is no agreement in the healthcare field as to the precise definition of any of these terms."
So it really depends on who you ask...
Spinal disc pain terminology varies
There are many different terms to describe spinal disc pathology and associated pain, such as ???herniated disc???, ???pinched nerve???, and ???bulging disc???, and all are used differently by different healthcare practitioners. Unfortunately, there is no agreement in the healthcare field as to the precise definition of any of these terms.
www.spine-health.com/topics/cd/d_difference/diff01.html
There are many different terms to describe spinal disc pathology and associated pain, such as ???herniated disc???, ???pinched nerve???, and ???bulging disc???, and all are used differently by different healthcare practitioners. Unfortunately, there is no agreement in the healthcare field as to the precise definition of any of these terms.
www.spine-health.com/topics/cd/d_difference/diff01.html
AKIRA - here are some psaos and piriformis stretches, make sure you read the explanations, dont just try to mimic whats in the photo.
they work extremely well, once your done doing each one 3 times each leg you feel incredibly relieved and your glutes feel nice and stretched, ready to go. Most of all it kills the pain (creates space between the nerve and whatever is pinching it)
after the stretches, then try the sit ups ubercoach explained.
http://www.jaxmed.com/massage/pirformis_stretches.htm
http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/strength-training/strengthening-the-psoas-muscle-000998.php
they work extremely well, once your done doing each one 3 times each leg you feel incredibly relieved and your glutes feel nice and stretched, ready to go. Most of all it kills the pain (creates space between the nerve and whatever is pinching it)
after the stretches, then try the sit ups ubercoach explained.
http://www.jaxmed.com/massage/pirformis_stretches.htm
http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/strength-training/strengthening-the-psoas-muscle-000998.php
what part didn't you understand?
read my post, 2 down from his....I summed it up and then read the Boyle article I posted which sums up my post even more.
to tighten the abdominal muscles as a solution for this stressful situation is a misguided effort. What is needed is to improve the responsiveness of the psoas and glutei minimi, which includes their ability to relax.
That is a great description of whats going on, and would also explain why my knees have been popping more than usual, why my low back cracks (temporary arthritis).
This one thing can trigger so many other things, to a certain extent i think it retriggered my asthma. havnt weezed in over 5-6 years, all of a sudden i was weezing and short of breath the other day, and my back located near my lungs (right below neck) cracks often as well. (if i do a shrug for instance or take a deep breath my back instantly cracks)
"High abdominal muscle tone from abdominal crunches interferes with the ability to stand fully erect, as the contracted abdominal muscles drag the front of the ribs down. Numerous consequences follow: (1) breathing is impaired, (2) compression of abdominal contents results, impeding circulation, (3) deprived of the pumping effect of motion on fluid circulation, the lumbar plexus, which is embedded in the psoas, becomes less functional (slowed circulation slows tissue nutrition and removal of metabolic waste; nerve plexus metabolism slows; chronic constipation often results), (4) displacement of the centers of gravity of the body's segments from a vertical arrangement (standing or sitting) deprives them of support; gravity then drags them down and further in the direction of displacement; muscular involvement (at the back of the body) then becomes necessary to counteract what is, in effect, a movement toward collapse. This muscular effort (a) taxes the body's vital resources, (b) introduces strain in the involved musculature (e.g., the extensors of the back), and (c) sets the stage for back pain and back injury."
This describes what P was getting to earlier on, maybe even in my thread. stating doing endless crunches can actually be counterproductive (dragging the rib cage down, interfering with breathing and overpowering the psaos in stablizing and controlling the trunk and lower back)
This is important, in that it states what ISNT the problem and points to what IS the problem and that is a stable relationship between the abdominals and the psaos. I knew my core wasn't the problem, it was extremely tight hips, flexibility issues. my abs become so strong, combined with not stretching the psaos or piriformis, dragged my entire trunk down, including my rib cage and pinched the sciatic nerve causing even more problems. This goes to show how important this really is (can happen to anyone)
If im going to continue to do the amount of compound lifts that I do, im going to have to stretch and strengthen the shit out of my psaos, pirifmormis and entire hip flexor to deal with my strong abdominals
"When the psoas and the abdominal muscles counterbalance each other, the psoas muscles contract and relax, shorten and lengthen appropriately in movement. The lumbar curve, rather than increasing, decreases; the back flattens and the abdominal contents move back into the abdominal cavity, where they are supported instead of hanging forward."
That is a great description of whats going on, and would also explain why my knees have been popping more than usual, why my low back cracks (temporary arthritis).
This one thing can trigger so many other things, to a certain extent i think it retriggered my asthma. havnt weezed in over 5-6 years, all of a sudden i was weezing and short of breath the other day, and my back located near my lungs (right below neck) cracks often as well. (if i do a shrug for instance or take a deep breath my back instantly cracks)
"High abdominal muscle tone from abdominal crunches interferes with the ability to stand fully erect, as the contracted abdominal muscles drag the front of the ribs down. Numerous consequences follow: (1) breathing is impaired, (2) compression of abdominal contents results, impeding circulation, (3) deprived of the pumping effect of motion on fluid circulation, the lumbar plexus, which is embedded in the psoas, becomes less functional (slowed circulation slows tissue nutrition and removal of metabolic waste; nerve plexus metabolism slows; chronic constipation often results), (4) displacement of the centers of gravity of the body's segments from a vertical arrangement (standing or sitting) deprives them of support; gravity then drags them down and further in the direction of displacement; muscular involvement (at the back of the body) then becomes necessary to counteract what is, in effect, a movement toward collapse. This muscular effort (a) taxes the body's vital resources, (b) introduces strain in the involved musculature (e.g., the extensors of the back), and (c) sets the stage for back pain and back injury."
This describes what P was getting to earlier on, maybe even in my thread. stating doing endless crunches can actually be counterproductive (dragging the rib cage down, interfering with breathing and overpowering the psaos in stablizing and controlling the trunk and lower back)
This is important, in that it states what ISNT the problem and points to what IS the problem and that is a stable relationship between the abdominals and the psaos. I knew my core wasn't the problem, it was extremely tight hips, flexibility issues. my abs become so strong, combined with not stretching the psaos or piriformis, dragged my entire trunk down, including my rib cage and pinched the sciatic nerve causing even more problems. This goes to show how important this really is (can happen to anyone)
If im going to continue to do the amount of compound lifts that I do, im going to have to stretch and strengthen the shit out of my psaos, pirifmormis and entire hip flexor to deal with my strong abdominals
"When the psoas and the abdominal muscles counterbalance each other, the psoas muscles contract and relax, shorten and lengthen appropriately in movement. The lumbar curve, rather than increasing, decreases; the back flattens and the abdominal contents move back into the abdominal cavity, where they are supported instead of hanging forward."
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His post seemed comprehensible. As you said, you will have to read this long thread carefully, its packed with a lot of technical information.
I think I will sticky this thread - its quite useful.
Hey - I can cut and paste too!
I was just showing that others (including websites) don't have a clear definition of herniation and buldging... They can and are used for the same thing. Just because your definition differs doesn't mean the rest of the worlds does.
But I can understand you trying to get in the last word there... it's tough to admit when you are wrong.
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After a google search I found these exact stretches! Ill have to wait until I have time and space to do these movements.I also read the WHOLE article on the LAST reply you had. I cant believe this shit involes even the feet.
And as far as not understanding ubercoach's reply, I wasnt trying to be humorous, I really meant it was hard for me to understand. You gotta remember, I am not in school for this stuff yet, so some terminology throws me off into raised eye-brow land. However, when I clicked on the link, I saw it had pictures along with the info which helped dumbasses like me.
Now if they were just pop-up pictures...
ubercoach
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Damned good advice...
This is a perfect example of what this forum can do...help each other!
This is peer reviewed first class info that can be used right now to alleviate another forum member's pain and suffering. Just reread the posts, so many of us have and continue to suffer from sciatica. It is important for us to help and support each other in rational efforts. I will not help anyone who admits they are doing 'roids, because I think it's irrational and ignorant. I do my homework every day to stay on top of the strtength and conditioning field and I'm happy to share what I've learned to assist others in getting where they want to go. My athletes are trained with a philosophy that extends to concern for what my athletes lives will be like when they are 50 and 60 and 70 years old. You may just want to look good naked now, but when you're 40 your thing may be tennis, or surfing, or mountain climbing. You have to be healthy to run and play with the other kids, at any age.
What's really cool is when we exchange and discuss these training methods and modalities to try to make sense of all the data on the care and feeding of the most complex thing in the universe...the human body. This forum can be a tremendously valueable resource if everyone tries to contribute. Together we can analyse the data submitted and come to a consensus as to what is the most healthy way to train, for sports, Weightlifting, Powerlifting, body building, whatever. So much smarter and more efficient than trying to do it all on your own.
Pfunk, Akira and others set a great example of jumping in to help out with excellent info, thanks for those links Akira, much appreciated.
Knowledge is Power - Share the Power
Ubercoach
My apologies. It was fUnc17 that posted the stretching links - Thanks fUnc17
This is a perfect example of what this forum can do...help each other!
This is peer reviewed first class info that can be used right now to alleviate another forum member's pain and suffering. Just reread the posts, so many of us have and continue to suffer from sciatica. It is important for us to help and support each other in rational efforts. I will not help anyone who admits they are doing 'roids, because I think it's irrational and ignorant. I do my homework every day to stay on top of the strtength and conditioning field and I'm happy to share what I've learned to assist others in getting where they want to go. My athletes are trained with a philosophy that extends to concern for what my athletes lives will be like when they are 50 and 60 and 70 years old. You may just want to look good naked now, but when you're 40 your thing may be tennis, or surfing, or mountain climbing. You have to be healthy to run and play with the other kids, at any age.
What's really cool is when we exchange and discuss these training methods and modalities to try to make sense of all the data on the care and feeding of the most complex thing in the universe...the human body. This forum can be a tremendously valueable resource if everyone tries to contribute. Together we can analyse the data submitted and come to a consensus as to what is the most healthy way to train, for sports, Weightlifting, Powerlifting, body building, whatever. So much smarter and more efficient than trying to do it all on your own.
Pfunk, Akira and others set a great example of jumping in to help out with excellent info, thanks for those links Akira, much appreciated.
Knowledge is Power - Share the Power
Ubercoach
My apologies. It was fUnc17 that posted the stretching links - Thanks fUnc17
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I'm not wrong.
Definition of a bulging disc:
Sometimes the disc does not actually rupture but protrudes due to a weakening of the outer part that lets the inner fluid to push against the weakened wall and cause a bulge ??? this is called a bulging disc
Definition of a herniated disc:
A herniated disc is a rupture of the outer casing of the disc. The inner substance of the disc then protrudes.
All I said is there is a difference. I agree they are used for the same thing more often than not and give the same symptoms but one is technically different than the other.
Look....
A bulge or a slipped disk is when the disk does not rupture but protrudes out and presses the nerves of the interverabral foramen. However, even though some call this a bulged or slipped disk (that is what it is), this is still level 1 of a herniated disk (or herniated nucleus Pulposus). They are the same thing.
There are four levels of herinated disks (according to Kineseology of the Musculoskeletal system:Foundations for Physical Rehabilitation by Donald Neumann....as well as according to other texts I have seen).
Level 1- Protrussion- Displaced Nucleus Pulposus remains within the annulus fibrosus, but may create a pressure bulge on the spinal cord (what some, like ponyboy, would call a bulging disk....but, it still can be reffered to as a herination in clinical settings)
level 2- Prolapse- Displaced nucleus pulposus reaces the posterior edge of the disc, but remains essentially cofined within the outer layer of the annulus fibrosus.
level 3- Extrusion- Annulus fibrosus ruptures, allowing the nucleus pulposus to completely escape from the disc into the epidural space.
Level 4- parts of the nuscleus pulposus and fragments of the annulus fibosus become lodged within the epidural space.
Now quit arguing about semantics.
A bulge or a slipped disk is when the disk does not rupture but protrudes out and presses the nerves of the interverabral foramen. However, even though some call this a bulged or slipped disk (that is what it is), this is still level 1 of a herniated disk (or herniated nucleus Pulposus). They are the same thing.
There are four levels of herinated disks (according to Kineseology of the Musculoskeletal system:Foundations for Physical Rehabilitation by Donald Neumann....as well as according to other texts I have seen).
Level 1- Protrussion- Displaced Nucleus Pulposus remains within the annulus fibrosus, but may create a pressure bulge on the spinal cord (what some, like ponyboy, would call a bulging disk....but, it still can be reffered to as a herination in clinical settings)
level 2- Prolapse- Displaced nucleus pulposus reaces the posterior edge of the disc, but remains essentially cofined within the outer layer of the annulus fibrosus.
level 3- Extrusion- Annulus fibrosus ruptures, allowing the nucleus pulposus to completely escape from the disc into the epidural space.
Level 4- parts of the nuscleus pulposus and fragments of the annulus fibosus become lodged within the epidural space.
Now quit arguing about semantics.
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This link might clarify:
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/herniated_disk.jsp
One definition. Four classifications of disk pathology.
Semantics. Thing is, as ubercoach sez, is we need to bring together a compendium of good advice.
Pat and I can rebuild (reorganize it, remove extraneous comments) it into a proper sticky afterwards.
Those who will read it, probably have at attained at least the first level of disc pathology. Key is to provide advice to forestall worsening. For the more advanced cases, to point to options for professional care.
Maintenance to avoid disc pathology can be offered here. Chances, are, by the time the member or lurking audience in hyperspace goes looking, they're at level 1 or 2 already.
Damned good thread.
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/herniated_disk.jsp
One definition. Four classifications of disk pathology.
Semantics. Thing is, as ubercoach sez, is we need to bring together a compendium of good advice.
Pat and I can rebuild (reorganize it, remove extraneous comments) it into a proper sticky afterwards.
Those who will read it, probably have at attained at least the first level of disc pathology. Key is to provide advice to forestall worsening. For the more advanced cases, to point to options for professional care.
Maintenance to avoid disc pathology can be offered here. Chances, are, by the time the member or lurking audience in hyperspace goes looking, they're at level 1 or 2 already.
Damned good thread.
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From the links that I have read and studied, it all comes back to the term "piriformis syndrome" that seems to completely define my problem.
It truley is a "pain in the ass" and certain stretches alleviate the pain as certain movements bring on the pain.
In the jaxmed.com link, she states that sitting, walking, and squating can cause this nerve to be pinched by the piriformis since both sit in a "foramen." Well shit, if thats all it takes to get this nerve pinched, I am in big trouble!
This morning, my glutes felt worse, so it leads me to believe that most of this pain is brought on from my sleeping position. Only, I never remember what position I am in when I go to sleep nor when I wake up. I am almost positive I toss and turn. Either way, could this be the #1 cause?
Oh yeah, and once a person has this sort of problem(s), is he or she cursed with it from here on out?
It truley is a "pain in the ass" and certain stretches alleviate the pain as certain movements bring on the pain.
In the jaxmed.com link, she states that sitting, walking, and squating can cause this nerve to be pinched by the piriformis since both sit in a "foramen." Well shit, if thats all it takes to get this nerve pinched, I am in big trouble!
This morning, my glutes felt worse, so it leads me to believe that most of this pain is brought on from my sleeping position. Only, I never remember what position I am in when I go to sleep nor when I wake up. I am almost positive I toss and turn. Either way, could this be the #1 cause?
Oh yeah, and once a person has this sort of problem(s), is he or she cursed with it from here on out?
I've been dealing with same pain for 8 month's now right now I'm taking methadone and lyrica 3 times a day and still feel pain thruogh that yet MRI, Xrays, Bone Scans show nothing mechanichally wrong, I am seeing a neurologist right now.
My symptoms are pain in my upper glute, around to the side of my hip and down the side/back of my thigh somedays it can jump my calf and sting my ankle and side of my foot.
If I don't have anytrhing for pain it just preoccupies my entire existence and wakes me at night. Mine started like yours and I ignored it thinking I'm young and tough then I trained through it and kept moving large objects and working hard and then bam I ended up like this so until you see a doc or any little slightest twinge goes away don't risk anything
Heed my warning cause if it gets worse and no one can find whats wrong you will be hating life.
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Couple questions for Manic and Akira:
Do you both have older matresses (older than 6 yrs)?
Do you both have a tendency to lie on your sides?
Do you naturally sleep curled up?
What I suggest:
Get a new matress if its older than 6-7 yrs old.
make a small back-side support roll of a small soft dishtowel, just enough to give you lordosis support at your natural beltline when you lie on your back or side. Use it at night.
It probably feels worse in the morning because of the relatively long period of inactivity - not because sleeping per se makes it worse.
If patrick peeks in on this thread: I want to know if using a twice daily application of an intensive healing cream like Taumeel on the trigger point for this pain will have a beneficial effect.
Do you both have older matresses (older than 6 yrs)?
Do you both have a tendency to lie on your sides?
Do you naturally sleep curled up?
What I suggest:
Get a new matress if its older than 6-7 yrs old.
make a small back-side support roll of a small soft dishtowel, just enough to give you lordosis support at your natural beltline when you lie on your back or side. Use it at night.
It probably feels worse in the morning because of the relatively long period of inactivity - not because sleeping per se makes it worse.
If patrick peeks in on this thread: I want to know if using a twice daily application of an intensive healing cream like Taumeel on the trigger point for this pain will have a beneficial effect.
if you sleep on your side place a pillow between your knees. if you sleep on your back, place a pillow under your knees.
if you spend hours sitting at a desk, place a small pillow behind your back.
i think any type of trigger point work or myo-fascial work (ART, massage, foam roll) is a great thing. it can help to activate the GTO to allow the muscle to relax. The tissue needs to be inhibited. Healing cream can be good too.....I wouldn't use it all the time because sometimes it can give the illusion that everything is "okay" when it is just masking the pain and then we (us type A's) go out and start deadlifting heavy and wonder why we can't walk for the next 10 days.
if you spend hours sitting at a desk, place a small pillow behind your back.
i think any type of trigger point work or myo-fascial work (ART, massage, foam roll) is a great thing. it can help to activate the GTO to allow the muscle to relax. The tissue needs to be inhibited. Healing cream can be good too.....I wouldn't use it all the time because sometimes it can give the illusion that everything is "okay" when it is just masking the pain and then we (us type A's) go out and start deadlifting heavy and wonder why we can't walk for the next 10 days.
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If the pain and tightness are on side, supporting the small of the back - from the side or while on the back, makes sense - it avoids flexion impingement of the nerve trunk. Chiro taught me this. Its mentioned earlier in the thread (in a website) as a temporary treatment.
Pillow beneath/between knees was also key, and I forgot clean about that point.
Need to use the cream for at least a couple months - no illusions about it healing quick, but this is a chronic irritation, they heal slowly.
Excellent feedback, thoughtful as usual. Thanks, sir.
Pillow beneath/between knees was also key, and I forgot clean about that point.
Need to use the cream for at least a couple months - no illusions about it healing quick, but this is a chronic irritation, they heal slowly.
Excellent feedback, thoughtful as usual. Thanks, sir.
