Should Bonds get an Asterisk?

[Dale Mabry]

Why do boxers drop Cheque Drops, Dale? B/C they like the taste? B/C they think they might go into heat?

The fact that you compare a controlled substance to a diet or a lifting routine shows your level of understanding of the classes of things we're talking about here. These are not the same. I've gained 8 pounds of pure muscle in 3 weeks, and lost an inch off my waist. This is after training for years, after college sports, etc. How many diets or new routines can do that? I can tell you right now, but you already know the answer.

YES, a better diet gives you an edge, which is why everyone in pro sports seems to have a nutritionist and a personal trainer, but it only takes you to your genetic potential. Drugs take you beyond that...this is without debate.

But, on the other hand, I've hung out with Chris Chelios (Hockey, Detroit RedWings), and Ryan Dempster (pitcher, Chicago Cubs), and it wasn't at the nutrition shop, it was at a bar, Stanley's in Chicago, where I play every other Sunday. Dempster got so wasted, he streaked the place. He pitched three days later.

We ARE talking about performance enhancement which is why I think it is a perfectly fine comparison. I used to work with Vaughn Hebron who won 2 Super Bowl rings with the Broncos. His pregame supplement of choice was honey. Even back 6 years ago when he played in the NFL creatine was available, but he chose honey over it. Creatine DOES take you beyond your genetic potential which is why I used it the first time. You have an endogenous level of phosphates and creatine adds to this. So the people who chose to use creatine had an unfair advantage over him?

As for why boxers use cheque drops...It is very androgenic so of course you would expect some aggression from it. Not all steroids are highly androgenic. From my understanding superdrol is actually quite low with regards to this.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Is that really a rule Dale?
What if they use an aluminum bat.
Actually I can't recall any that use them, but I believe they are legal.

Yeah, it is a rule. Pros can't use aluminum bats, imagine if one did though. I would hate to be the pitcher standing on the mound when a 95mph fastball comes off that bat in my direction.

 

[DFINEST]

DEFINATELY!!! I say give the record back to Maris!!!

Then Maris should get an asterisk as well
because catcher Josh Gibson, an Negro
League All Star has the REAL
record as far as homers in a single season, 80

The Negro Leagues had just as much, if not superior
talent as the Major league
did as the Negro league all stars
consistently WHOOPED the major league
all stars in a match game each year

 

[min0 lee]

Then Maris should get an asterisk as well
because catcher Josh Gibson, an Negro
League All Star has the REAL
record as far as homers in a single season, 80

The Negro Leagues had just as much, if not superior
talent as the Major league
did as the Negro league all stars
consistently WHOOPED the major league
all stars in a match game each year

That's fine, but we are talking about Major League Baseball.
We might as well include Japan, Mexico if you want to include everyone.

 

[DFINEST]

That's fine, but we are talking about Major League Baseball.
We might as well include Japan, Mexico if you want to include everyone.

That's my point, Maris achieved the record WHILE superior talent
wasn't allowed into the league, thus his record
deserving an asterisk....

Don't get me wrong, MARIS acomplished a great feat
with his homers BUT again, someone who had talent
superior to his wasn't afforded the opportunity
to compete because of his skin color

Like I said, the Negro League all stars consistently
DEFEATED the MAjor League all stars in match games
during that time period

 

[min0 lee]

Maris did play with "superior" stars. He had that record in 1961, blacks were in baseball in the 50's.

We might as well put an asterik on every stat.

Which brings an interesting thing I just realized going thru the net.
Cheating is part of baseball.....read on

"You can???t even talk about taking away his records or diminishing them. He did what he was allowed to do. No one can get punished for that. If you take away his MVPs and home runs, then take away Don Sutton???s and Gaylord Perry???s Hall of Fame plaques. Take way Norm Cash???s batting title. Take away Mike Scott???s perfect game. They all cheated, just as surely as Bonds and Giambi did, as surely as Ken Caminiti did. As surely as more players that you want to know about did.
What Bonds and these others did was deeply rooted in the game. Pete Rose and most players of his generation couldn???t take batting practice without first downing a handful of ???greenies??? ??? amphetamines. Willie Mays kept a bottle of ???red juice??? in his locker ??? the same stuff as greenies, but in a liquid form."

 

[Randy]

I wouldn't want to be a pitcher standing on the mound when a 95mph fastball comes off any bat in my direction

That reminds me of back when I played ball. My position was pitcher. I was assuming my position on the mound while the coach was blasting balls out in the field for practice. He sends the ball up in the air, aims for the center fielder as he goes into full swing, and Wack!!!..... A straight line right into my forehead. (I was seeing little stars for like 30 minutes) The impact knocked me right on my ass. Besides a major knot on my head, I was ok though. From that point foreward It sure heightened my awareness on the mound though .

Yeah, it is a rule. Pros can't use aluminum bats, imagine if one did though. I would hate to be the pitcher standing on the mound when a 95mph fastball comes off that bat in my direction.

 

[DFINEST]

That's correct BUT Gibson wasn't allowed to play in the
majors during his time; Gibson died of a brain tumor
right after Jackie Robinson was allowed into the Majors

MLB would not allow Afro Americans
into the game when NEGRO league
players consistently out-performed the majority
of major league players

 

[Randy]

Those bastards must of been on steroids back then too

Like I said, the Negro League all stars consistently
DEFEATED the MAjor League all stars in match games during that time period

 

[min0 lee]

Those bastards must of been on steroids back then too

Dfinest....I know all about the history and I respect it, it's a shame what happened.

 

[DFINEST]

.......We might as well put an asterik on every stat.

Which brings an interesting thing I just realized going thru the net.
Cheating is part of baseball.....read on

"You can???t even talk about taking away his records or diminishing them. He did what he was allowed to do. No one can get punished for that. If you take away his MVPs and home runs, then take away Don Sutton???s and Gaylord Perry???s Hall of Fame plaques. Take way Norm Cash???s batting title. Take away Mike Scott???s perfect game. They all cheated, just as surely as Bonds and Giambi did, as surely as Ken Caminiti did. As surely as more players that you want to know about did.
What Bonds and these others did was deeply rooted in the game. Pete Rose and most players of his generation couldn???t take batting practice without first downing a handful of ???greenies??? ??? amphetamines. Willie Mays kept a bottle of ???red juice??? in his locker ??? the same stuff as greenies, but in a liquid form."

Things that make you go

 

[brodus]

Mestanolone

Trade Names
Anavormol Ermalone Preroide
Andoron Etnabolate Prohormo
Androne Macrobin Protergine
Androstalone Mesanolon Restore
Antalon Methylantalon Tantarone
Assimil Methybol Yonchlon

The appropriate administration of androgenic hormones had a marked effect on the psychophysiological capacity. Substances that are known to have studied and used for this purpose include mestanolone (methyl DHT), Oral-Turinabol (dehydrochloromethyltestosterone), testosterone, and androstenedione. Of particular significance is the compound mestanolone. This substance is known to have minimal anabolic properties on muscle mass, yet their ability to activate the stress handling capabilities of the CNS are equal to or greater than that of testosterone or other androgenic/anabolic steroids.
The oral administration daily of 10mg mestanolone to individuals who had been undergoing long term stress. An alpha wave increase of up to 4 Hertz was observed, and this was associated with a great increase in performance on tasks requiring high physical output, mental concentration, and physical coordination.

 

[brodus]

Most notable in the patent, however, were comments regarding the psychological effects of methyl-DHT. To quote from the patent:
"This research completely unexpectedly and surprisingly discovered a hitherto unknown further action of mestanolone [methyl-DHT], namely the supply thereof led to an optimization of the central nervous system activation during preparation for the task and to a maintaining of this optimum activation even under high stresses. Thus, there was an increase [in] psychophysiological capacity.

"...The test persons performed difficult exercises requiring high physical capacities linked with high intellectual concentration and muscular coordination with far fewer errors. Complicated movement sequences with a high degree of stressing did not lead to a reduction in the degree of activation and instead the increased capacity remained after several repeats."


SOURCE:
Mattern et al. Medicament for influencing the degree of activation of the central nervous system. US Patent #5591732, Jan 7 1997.

 

[Randy]

Brodus,

Is all that supposed to impress us or something?
Or did you must smoke a couple doobies and decide to go scientific on us?

Can you please explain in english WTF you are talking about?
How does it relate to this thread whether Bonds should get an Asterisk?

 

[Flex]

I ask, b/c you speak the language of bro-logic, not someone who has competed at the top in sports, nor spent time with people who have. If you indeed had, you'd know why people in sports take what the take, and why those who are clean don't want them taking it..

First of all, this is HILARIOUS coming from a half-ass college athlete who tells himself if "he took steroids, he'd be in the olympics". You've JUST proved to me you know as much as the rest of society. You all think if "you" took steroids, you'd be the next Arnold or Ronnie Coleman.

If you don't believe that steroids increase agression, you've never had good gear, you're inherently a softie, or you've never done the kind of cycles pro athletes do. I don't care how much internet chat bullshit you engage in, you're talking bro-bullshit if you say large doses of Masteron don't make you feel like fucking people up when they cross you. Talk to boxers much? How about pro football players? Ever live with any pro ballers? Ever train with an Olympian. I'm calling you out b/c you're talking bullshit. Hit some Cheque Drops and then tell me steroids don't increase aggression you net monkey..

This just reinforces your bullshit. ROID RAGE IS BULLSHIT, you "net monkey" (wow, that's real creative). I've never had good gear? Ya, okay. Keep following the 60-minutes story of the week for your bullshit knowledge base, Mr. "If i only juice, i wouldn't be a fatass and i'd be in the Olympics".

...you do it to either get an edge in competition or to look better. That edge can be manifested in many ways. I don't know how many pros, coaches, sports casters, and athletes I've spoken with or known who understand this, clean or not...but you can live in your fantasy world..

Surprisingly, i actually agree with you here. One takes steroids to a) get an edge or b) look better. Steroids DO make you stronger/quicker (give you an edge) and make you look bigger/leaner (make you look better). Personally, I took steroids (even though they MUST'VE been watered down cuz i didn't experience the bullshit roid rage) for one reason, to get bigger. The strength was just a bonus.
But you gotta understand something, they WON'T make you hit more home runs. Just because you're stronger, that WON'T make you hit .380. It won't make you have an outta this world OBP. It's one thing is a pro BB takes them. YES, steroids will DIRECTLY affect his bench press, for example. But BONDS STILL hasta hit the fuckin ball. He STILL hasta look for that one pitch he sees per at bat, if that, you fuckin moron.

You go on thinking you're right bro-ham...all the answers are on the internet...Let me guess, you think posting daily in the Sexual Health forum makes you an expert there, too, huh? Rock on, dude. I'll submit your name for "coolest internet bro-master," and maybe you'll score some free porn.

Wow, not only are you a "has-been almost-star in track", but you're also a comedian? Goddamn, you are HILARIOUS. Hey Mr. DiMaggio, where do you FIND people with such great resumes

 

[Flex]

Whether Bonds deserves an asterisk is just a matter of opinion.

Brodus, i apologize if i insulted you, you are entitled to your opinion. But realize, i, and the people who agree with me, are rightfully entitled to ours.

The bottom line is this, If one takes steroids(A), they WILL get stronger/quicker etc.(B). Thus A=B.

You guys are saying A=B=C. Where if one takes steriods (A), they will get stronger/quicker (B), and that in turn will MAKE them hit more HR's (C).

This is where i disagree. What about the guys who aren't very big/strong (Griffey, Strawberry, Vlad Guerrero etc.) compared to the big guys (Bonds, Sosa, McGwire)??

Vlad is NOT a big guy. He DOESNT carry alot of muscle. Yet the guy has the best arm in the league, can hit as well and has as much power as anyone. You know why? Because of skill.

I guess we hafta just agree to disagree, that's all.

 

[gr81]

I really don't want to waste my breath on all these uninformed and ignorant morons, but I will say that Bonds had a hall of fame MVP filled career before he was juicing, and he is at this point the best player in baseball by far, so what does that say about all the other players juicing in baseball, why are they not all as great as him, especially since supposedly the majority of them are juicing? Oh yeah, and guess what, Babe Ruth corked his bat so if Bonds gets and asterisk then so does Ruth. May I also point out that before te Steroid Fueled HR race of 96 between Sosa and McGwire Baseball was DEAD in America, dead as could be still not recovered from the strike, no one gave a fuck about it, and that HR race brought it back into popularity, so I ask you, does baseball really want to put itself under the lights just to appease a group of ignorant people who have no motivation other than "lets do it for the children.."? Everyone just quite down and let athletes do their thing can we please..

 

[min0 lee]

I really don't want to waste my breath on all these uninformed and ignorant morons, but I will say that Bonds had a hall of fame MVP filled career before he was juicing, and he is at this point the best player in baseball by far, so what does that say about all the other players juicing in baseball, why are they not all as great as him, especially since supposedly the majority of them are juicing? Oh yeah, and guess what, Babe Ruth corked his bat so if Bonds gets and asterisk then so does Ruth. May I also point out that before te Steroid Fueled HR race of 96 between Sosa and McGwire Baseball was DEAD in America, dead as could be still not recovered from the strike, no one gave a fuck about it, and that HR race brought it back into popularity, so I ask you, does baseball really want to put itself under the lights just to appease a group of ignorant people who have no motivation other than "lets do it for the children.."? Everyone just quite down and let athletes do their thing can we please..

 

[SuperFlex]

He already does and likely always will in everyones mind. As he should...

BUT Bonds in the man...

 

[Randy]

Ahhhh I see GR81 crawled out from a crack to provide some more if his derogatory insults here in the thread.

Don't you all wish you were as smart as GR81?
We are all uniformed ignorant morons.

 

[King Silverback]

We have different opinions, like Flex stated, we will never change anothers opinion, thats why its called an opinion. Bonds was an all-star player long before the juicegate came along!!!

 

[Cold Iron]

Bonds truely became a home run hitter as soon as he got to SF. If that has any relation to when he started juicin', i dont know.

I know for a fact that steroids affect the performance of pitchers. My friend added 6mph on his fastball in an atempt to get drafted.

On the other hand, roid's dont appear to be doing too much for gabe kapler performance wise

I think they have a slight effect but it appears everyone is cheating in some sense now so....

 

[gr81]

Don't you all wish you were as smart as GR81?
We are all uniformed ignorant morons.

no I am fine with you being a piece of shit, it makes me feel better about myself. Hey I thought you had me on ignore anyways, what happened?.. Well hey maybe if you use more smilies in your posts then people will respect you huh, I don't think there are enough there already. Didn't I say earlier for you to keep my name out your fuccin mouth, I never said shit about you here, so don't start with me you faggot mother fucker. Not in the mood for your homosexual antics today

 

[min0 lee]

.

 

[Randy]

I guess ole GR is wasting more of his breath since I have his ass on ignore .

One thing is, I sure am not missing anything valuable.

All I see is this

>>This message is hidden because gr81 is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

 

[Flex]

I guess ole GR is wasting more of his breath since I have his ass on ignore .

How do you see someone's post if they are on ignore

That's kinda like "I see dead people".

 

[Flex]

.

mino you are hilarious.

 

[Flex]

On the other hand, roid's dont appear to be doing too much for gabe kapler performance wise

HEEEEEY! Don't mess with Gabe!
Just cuz his forearms are bigger than Ronnie's doesn't mean anything.

Nevermind players, what about ref's that are on steroids? how bout Ed Hocule. Guys a monster, his name should be Ed Hercules

 

[Ralph Wiggum]

I don't think crack gives you an edge.

It did for LT

 

[min0 lee]

I guess that was his fuel.


He was a joy to watch.