Should Bonds get an Asterisk?

[King Silverback]

I guess what I am trying to say Flex is that if you do roids you forfit all claims to the records set by the players who set then while clean. You lose by default regardless of how great of a player you would have been without them. We have one record book and all entries MUST be on even terms. No exceptions. Other wise what wouold be the point of keeping these records in the first place. 15 years from now we will have the new improved juice allowing guys to hit like no one could in the now. One set of rules anchanged for all time. Babe can then be on even ground with Barry and Mark. Any numbnuts can crunch the numbers to equal out the greater number of games played per season to still keep the legendary Babe Ruth hit per hit with Barry Bonds. Bands has to have not used the juice to compare raw talent against raw talent.

I totally agree with you!!! Back when Babe hit his 60, he had more homeruns than damn near the rest of the league, combined!!!

 

[Flex]

You guys are right. It's totally fair and honest for someone who is talented to lie to his team, his city, and everyone else and collect that $10 million paycheck and trophy that he cheated to get.....

You guys are so funny. Have any of you competed on a pro level, in sports, that is?

Steroids totally make a difference in a ton of sports, baseball included. The only thing you've addressed is ability to react to pitches, hand/eye coordination. Since you are pretending you don't know what steroids do (and I know you know, which is why this is frusturating), I'll explain:

1. Recovery Time: ESPECIALLY for a sport like baseball, where the season is LONG and persisitent, your ability to enhance tissue recovery and repair is a major advantage. You can swing for a homer at every at-bat if you never have one of those "Damn, I worked it pretty hard last night" feelings in warm-up.

2. Base Running/Fielding Speed: Do I need to cover this at all? Or are you going to pretend running isn't enhanced from certain drug combos? Explain how Marion Jones went from the best in the world to poor performance when the drug testing was turned up a notch? I can also cite personal experience, post college track.

3. Explosive Speed: Increasing the size (via AAS) and number (via GH/IGF) of fast twitch muscle fibers greatly enhances your explosive speed. I cannot think of any better example of anerobic explosive movement than swinging a bat, throwing a pitch, or jumping to catch a fly ball. Again, anyone here who has used AAS/GH/IGF, you know this is true.

4. Agression: Ever run a high dose of Test or better, a DHT derivative? Remember how it makes you feel like swinging a baseball bat at everything in your path? You don't think this helps you hit homers? You don't think Bonds is a an uncharacteristically agrressive and moody guy, for a millionaire with baseball lineage from heaven?

5. Attitude: This is the Superman Complex you get from the better steroids. If you wake up feeling like Superman, you have a serious psychological advantage on the field. This is the same reason they attempt to regulate stimulants and cocaine.
WHat kills me so much, is the logic behind your vehement defense of balls-out roid use is BECAUSE you KNOW they rock and turn your performance up MANY notches. Why don't you just be honest and say, yes they make you better, and it's not just 3 feet on a homerun swing. TOP PROFESSIONAL athletes, who by your own admission are super-gifted, they are choosing to use roids....why? Because it only gives them 3 feet on a swing...come on. These guys are good enough to bat over 300 without steroids...You know why they use them, especially if you've ever used steroids.

OMG

this is a ridiculous arguement, that obviously we can't all agree on.

dude, the MLB steroids laws BARELY existed until this past year, so once again, its NOT cheating.

1. recovery time-"you can swing for a homer every time"? COME ON. i'm not even gonna respond to that. So was freakin Ken Griffey Jr. on steroids, too? He used to jack HR's like nothing, oh but wait, he used to get injured

2. base running-Bonds USED TO STEAL BASES, WHEN HE WAS SKINNY.

4. Aggression- your b.s. belief of this has just proved to me the extent of knoewledge you have about steroids......not very much. AGRESSION IS BULLSHIT.

5. Attitude-Sure you "feel" like Superman, but are you honestly gonna tell me this is an advantage???????????? Last time i checked, SKILL in sports was the biggest advantage. Who cares if you have an attitude like Ron Artest or like Michael Jordan, as long as you can PERFORM, you have the advantage.


"WHat kills me so much, is the logic behind your vehement defense of balls-out roid use is BECAUSE you KNOW they rock and turn your performance up MANY notches. Why don't you just be honest and say, yes they make you better, and it's not just 3 feet on a homerun swing. TOP PROFESSIONAL athletes, who by your own admission are super-gifted, they are choosing to use roids....why? Because it only gives them 3 feet on a swing...come on. These guys are good enough to bat over 300 without steroids...You know why they use them, especially if you've ever used steroids."

What kills ME so much is people who makes claims about steroids that know NOTHING about them.

Yes, they make you stronger. Yes, they make you bigger. Yes, they make you feel good.

Are they gonna make you hit 73 HR's from 45? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Will they give you an "attitude" advantage? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Are they cheating? Well, there were BULLSHIT laws, so look at it anyway you want. Hitting a baseball on steriods, and lifting weights on steriods are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Hitting a baseball is TWO steps away from the juice, whereas lifting weights is DIRECTLY connected. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE YOU HIT MORE HR'S.

Once again, the guy NEVER EVEN GETS PITCHES TO HIT. His BA and OBP and walk/AB are OUTTA THIS WORLD, not even looking at his HR's. You're gonna tell me steriods let this guy pick that one pitch/at bat out and hit a HR? Steroids allow him to layoff and walk more than anyone in history?
Pitchers DONT pitch to the guy cuz they know what a hitter he is, even if he's NOT hitting HR's.

I can't do this anymore. It's like talking to a brickwall

 

[King Silverback]

p.s. for the record guys, all of you who voted "yes" and don't like all the "deciet", the integrity of sports went straight out the window when they started doing free agency, then it became all about the $.

Agreed, thanks to Curt Flood, a former Cardinal

 

[King Silverback]

Whether it be Football, Baseball, Bodybuilding or any sport, steroids do not make a champion athlete. If steroids were responsible for great athletes we would have many more John Elways (NFL), Barry Bonds (MLB), Ronnie Colemans (IFBB).

Genetics, hard work and discipline make champions, these athletes would be great with or without steroids. And if anyone thinks they could be a great athlete if they just took steroids is very disillusioned.

I agree, however, like you said steroids do not make a champion. However, they do make a so so player better than they where, and a good player above average, and a great one into Bonds!!! So they do improve your performance.

 

[King Silverback]

first of all, they are NOT being controlled. it's such a bullshit policy.

secondly, sure, maybe no single athlete reached 50, but i can guarentee you this past year is right up there in total HR's with ANY other year in MLB history...

look how many the freakin' Yankees hit as a team, who cares if no one hit 70?

Your right on with that one!!! the whole thing reaks of BS!!! With all the crap going on, thats why I say give it back to Maris!!!

 

[King Silverback]

On steroids...

 

[King Silverback]

I thought steroids were illegal in the U.S. unless you had a doctors precription.Why wouldn't they be illegal in baseball ?

You beat me to it, why are they not arrested for the juice, we would be!!!

 

[Arnold]

Someone said something about taking steroids is unfair because the past athletes did not have steroids and that was the issue at hand here.

First of all do you realize that athletes have been using steroids for the past 50 years?

Secondly, there are advancements every year that help athletes that include diet, nutrition, training methods, supplements, etc. So there are always going to be advantages for next years athlete that will help he or she excel past athletes of the previous generations.

 

[Randy]

Come on now Prince... If your comparing legal advancements then that is not the issue here.

Someone said something about taking steroids is unfair because the past athletes did not have steroids and that was the issue at hand here.

First of all do you realize that athletes have been using steroids for the past 50 years?

Secondly, there are advancements every year that help athletes that include diet, nutrition, training methods, supplements, etc. So there are always going to be advantages for next years athlete that will help he or she excel past athletes of the previous generations.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I thought steroids were illegal in the U.S. unless you had a doctors precription.Why wouldn't they be illegal in baseball ?

There was no policy outlawing their use in baseball. They would be illegal to possess by US law, but they were not illegal to use in basebal so everyone had the ability to use them.

Crack is illegal, but no one is saying that Lawrence Taylor should have an asteriks next to his football stats.

 

[min0 lee]

Crack is illegal, but no one is saying that Lawrence Taylor should have an asteriks next to his football stats.

I don't think crack gives you an edge.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I don't think crack gives you an edge.

Creatine does, should anyone who uses it have their records taken away?

 

[Randy]

Dale is right as far as his point about no policy.

Players have been exploiting the crack in the legal system governing the rules of baseball and other sports for that matter. This is what all the hype has been about.... closing this crack or loophole and enforcing the laws against steroid use in sports.

I still think players such as bonds, if found to have been taking steroids illegally during the point of establishing his records should have an asterisk pinned next to his name.

Lets also post a big asterisk next to Lawrence Taylor for using Crack.
Would serve him right.

There was no policy outlawing their use in baseball. They would be illegal to possess by US law, but they were not illegal to use in basebal so everyone had the ability to use them.

Crack is illegal, but no one is saying that Lawrence Taylor should have an asteriks next to his football stats.

 

[oaktownboy]

damn 4 pages..wow ..no he shouldnt have an asterisk by his name..he is the one who hit the homeruns..not the steroids

 

[min0 lee]

Creatine does, should anyone who uses it have their records taken away?

Not from creatine, I don't think it's that effective. If it is I must change brands.

 

[min0 lee]

.

 

[Randy]

No doubt... maybe dale is spiking his creatine with steroids

But seriously Dale, you're comparing apples to oranges here, not to mention
Legal to illegal. Your point is dull...I think you better go sharpen it

Not from creatine, I don't think it's that effective. If it is I must change brands.

 

[Randy]

Kewl Spiderman MinO
He's not taking steroids too is he?
I suppose he is....how the hell else is he climbing that building?
But wait! Or is he sliding down?

.

 

[min0 lee]

 

[Dale Mabry]

No doubt... maybe dale is spiking his creatine with steroids

But seriously Dale, you're comparing apples to oranges here, not to mention
Legal to illegal. Your point is dull...I think you better go sharpen it

I think they are very similar since there is a noticeable advantage for people who use creatine, especially with regards to energy levels and generating energy quickly. I notice a large negative difference in my workout without creatine. Steroids are illegal, but with no policy I see no reason why they should put an asterisk. I do think it is unfair to future generations who will try to break his record, though.


We also need to take into consideration that we don't know without a shadow of a doubt that past generations did not use them.

 

[jack52]

No, Maris shouldn't have had an asterisk either. If your going to give Bonds' records an asterisk give them one because pitching sucks now. Bonds is a jerk, no question and if the pitchers Maris faced pitched to Bonds the first time he watched the ball leave the park like he does he'd sit down the next time up instead of walk or he'd catch one in the ribcage. Baseball knew how to deal with jerks back then.

 

[Randy]

There may be a noticeable advantage using creatine, but there is still no comparison to the advantage one would obtain from steroids. Not only that, but again steroids are illegal and creatine is not.

As for not being in the policy, well that is a loophole as I said.
Just because it is not in the official baseball rule book though doesn't mean it should be excepted. It is still illegal and will be up to the officials to determine what if any action should be taken on the players such as Bonds who has set records during consumption of steroids.

I also remember when players where modifying their bats and filling them with cork I believe. As a result I am pretty sure that Souza was fined big money after he was caught doing that. The point is, I don't believe that was in the rule book either. But does this make it acceptable? It's cheating in my book. There is always loop holes in the system that someone is looking to climb through. In this case though where steroids are obviously illegal to consume without a doctors prescription then I think there is no question here that it is wrong and penalties should be apply.

I think they are very similar since there is a noticeable advantage for people who use creatine, especially with regards to energy levels and generating energy quickly. I notice a large negative difference in my workout without creatine. Steroids are illegal, but with no policy I see no reason why they should put an asterisk. I do think it is unfair to future generations who will try to break his record, though.


We also need to take into consideration that we don't know without a shadow of a doubt that past generations did not use them.

 

[brodus]

Flex, you talk a lot of shit. Have you trained with Olympians and Olympic-level coaches? Do you have pro-athelete friends? How many world-class athletes (not BBrs) have you spent time with?

I ask, b/c you speak the language of bro-logic, not someone who has competed at the top in sports, nor spent time with people who have. If you indeed had, you'd know why people in sports take what the take, and why those who are clean don't want them taking it.

I'm a beta-tester for one of the most potent steroids available right now, a 2-saturated Anadrol derivative, and here's what I've learned about this particular gem:

1. I can get 2 hours less sleep a night with no impact on performance
2. I can lift 10% more per week, on average
3. I am WAY more aggressive and my fuse is shorter
4. I have a faster sprint time and greater overall endurance
5. I have better recovery between sets and between workouts
6. I have a ton of energy and focus and have found time to complete way more shit
7. I can play guitar faster and more precisely

If I was playing sports right now, I would have a massive advantage, and I would be cheating.

If you don't believe that steroids increase agression, you've never had good gear, you're inherently a softie, or you've never done the kind of cycles pro athletes do. I don't care how much internet chat bullshit you engage in, you're talking bro-bullshit if you say large doses of Masteron don't make you feel like fucking people up when they cross you. Talk to boxers much? How about pro football players? Ever live with any pro ballers? Ever train with an Olympian. I'm calling you out b/c you're talking bullshit. Hit some Cheque Drops and then tell me steroids don't increase aggression you net monkey.

I'm calling you a person of low integrity and anyone else who uses steroids and then pretends its for other reasons, when we all know the reasons people take steroids. If you juice, BE FUCKING HONEST...you do it to either get an edge in competition or to look better. That edge can be manifested in many ways. I don't know how many pros, coaches, sports casters, and athletes I've spoken with or known who understand this, clean or not...but you can live in your fantasy world.

You go on thinking you're right bro-ham...all the answers are on the internet...Let me guess, you think posting daily in the Sexual Health forum makes you an expert there, too, huh? Rock on, dude. I'll submit your name for "coolest internet bro-master," and maybe you'll score some free porn.

 

[Randy]

you speak the language of bro-logic

Now that is funny

 

[Randy]

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE THAT USES BRO-LOGIC
No actually I think he just saw a titty for the first time

 

[Dale Mabry]

If you don't believe that steroids increase agression, you've never had good gear, you're inherently a softie, or you've never done the kind of cycles pro athletes do.

I did a real cycle, test/m1t/eq and was never aggressive. The jury will be out on Superdrol, I remember all the hype that came with mdien and that shit flopped despite having good beta testing results.

I completely agree with you that anyone taking the juice in sports is looking for an edge, but isn't that the reason an athlete does anything? Wouldn't that be the reason they would choose one training methodology over another?

Would it be cheating if an athlete developed a training method that made them 20% better than his peers and didn't share it.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I also remember when players where modifying their bats and filling them with cork I believe. As a result I am pretty sure that Souza was fined big money after he was caught doing that. The point is, I don't believe that was in the rule book either. But does this make it acceptable? It's cheating in my book.

MLB rule 1.10 -"...The bat shall be one piece of solid wood..."

 

[Dale Mabry]

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE THAT USES BRO-LOGIC
No actually I think he just saw a titty for the first time

Hey, you leave Buckwheat out of this. He did nothing to you.

 

[brodus]

Why do boxers drop Cheque Drops, Dale? B/C they like the taste? B/C they think they might go into heat?

The fact that you compare a controlled substance to a diet or a lifting routine shows your level of understanding of the classes of things we're talking about here. These are not the same. I've gained 8 pounds of pure muscle in 3 weeks, and lost an inch off my waist. This is after training for years, after college sports, etc. How many diets or new routines can do that? I can tell you right now, but you already know the answer.

YES, a better diet gives you an edge, which is why everyone in pro sports seems to have a nutritionist and a personal trainer, but it only takes you to your genetic potential. Drugs take you beyond that...this is without debate.

But, on the other hand, I've hung out with Chris Chelios (Hockey, Detroit RedWings), and Ryan Dempster (pitcher, Chicago Cubs), and it wasn't at the nutrition shop, it was at a bar, Stanley's in Chicago, where I play every other Sunday. Dempster got so wasted, he streaked the place. He pitched three days later.

 

[Randy]

Is that really a rule Dale?
What if they use an aluminum bat?
Actually I can't recall any that use them, but I believe they are legal.

I would think they would have some type of rule more on the lines of
"Modification of any bats of any kind is prohibited!"

MLB rule 1.10 -"...The bat shall be one piece of solid wood..."