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- Thread starter Twin Peak
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I was speaking to a few people about this product and the consensus is that even if it is effective, which is just might be, it will be pulled quickly from the market as a mislabeled and unapproved drug.
Euthenics had put out a whole line of transdermal PHs. They worked great but were quickly shut down. Well, you are a lawyer so you know more about the "legalities" than me...so, I guess we'll just have to see.
If you look on USFA's website and read the latest update, it has one congressman or senator(?) stating his stance toward the PH bill. He basically says if it works, ban it!!!!
Here is the link I was referring to!
http://www.usfa.biz/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=41
http://www.usfa.biz/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=41
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I'm coming into this discussion rather late, and I dont pretend that I'm not going to be perceived as biased given that I am an Avant employee.
Nonetheless, I can personally testify to the product in question's efficacy.
We are talking a 3/4" increase in upper arm girth over a 14day period, with no apparent signs of systematic absorption.
Placebo?...You decide
Nonetheless, I can personally testify to the product in question's efficacy.
We are talking a 3/4" increase in upper arm girth over a 14day period, with no apparent signs of systematic absorption.
Placebo?...You decide
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sounds like some BS to me. I would also like to see some science surrounding this product.
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For legal reasons I am not at liberty to discuss certain aspects of this product. Now, this probably sounds like a cop-out, which I dont mean for it to.
What, specifically, do you want to know about the science??? Depending on the nature of what you're looking for, I may be able to give an answer...
Here is some initial feedback--both good and bad--for your perusal...
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=4142&hl=gel+3&
What, specifically, do you want to know about the science??? Depending on the nature of what you're looking for, I may be able to give an answer...
Here is some initial feedback--both good and bad--for your perusal...
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=4142&hl=gel+3&
You're saying they work both localized and systemically??
I follow you! But I would think that even locally at the cellular level, that it would be in the bloodstream, meaning it would be systemic?
The gel used avoids (largely systemic distribution) much the same way Lipoderm and Ab-Solved gels avoid it.
Probably though you are getting some systemic distribution, though not sufficient to supress endogenous hormones (unless of course you used ridiculously high amounts -- i.e. covered your whole body in it).
Again, the proof is in the puddin' and more than just Justin and have have played with this.
I am going to do a write-up, on the science/theory in the next couple weeks, but the jist of it is as follows:
Androgens exert much of their effects locally, at the cell level, be it in muscle, fat, the brain, liver, etc. They are taken up by the cells in those tissues, they bind to the AR in those cells, and subsequently activate transcription, thus protein synthesis, glycogen storage, etc., in those cells.
IOW, high androgen concentrations (and binding), in a cell in the muscle, does not activate transcription in the hypothalamus
That is pretty straightforward, but it tells us that if we could get high concentrations in one tissue over the other, we could achieve a stronger effect in that tissue over the other (all else being equal)
As to getting higher concentrations in one versus the other, that is all about delivery, and I would point to LipoDerm in support of that -- both the science I presented in my write-up (which showed much higher ratio of active in muscle compared to systemic vs. oral or another topical) as well as anecdotal evidence (people who can't take 10mg, orally, who can do 200mg/day dosing for weeks at a time (meaning it is not just a time-release thing, because levels would build-up).
The mechanism for local delivery is the same in both products, what differs is the additives for increasing total delivery, because of the different physical properties of the active (lipophillic vs. hydrophillic), which changes the rate limiting step for total flux (particularly in the real world, where one showers)
As to adipose vs. fat -- i.e. that they are different tissues, so the pharmacokinetics might be different (I assume this is your concern, as you did not specify) -- the main difference is blood flow, which means the active is more likely to be taken up, in the muscle, than the fat -- and this is reflected by lower concentrations in the muscle vs. adipose -- but, as mentioned, the ratio and total concentration in muscle vs. systemic, was still much higher than vs. oral or a different delivery vehicle.
Androgens are metabolized locally, in all of these same tissue I mentioned earlier -- both Phase I and Phase II metabolism takes place, thus by the time the steroids are taken up by the blood, and delivered systemic, most of it has been metabolised to inactive compounds, which would be excreted, thus it would not activate negative feedback in the hypothalamus and testes.
As a bit of an aside, androgen are also quite lipolytic in SubQ fat, so might see some localized fat loss as well.
Androgens exert much of their effects locally, at the cell level, be it in muscle, fat, the brain, liver, etc. They are taken up by the cells in those tissues, they bind to the AR in those cells, and subsequently activate transcription, thus protein synthesis, glycogen storage, etc., in those cells.
IOW, high androgen concentrations (and binding), in a cell in the muscle, does not activate transcription in the hypothalamus
That is pretty straightforward, but it tells us that if we could get high concentrations in one tissue over the other, we could achieve a stronger effect in that tissue over the other (all else being equal)
As to getting higher concentrations in one versus the other, that is all about delivery, and I would point to LipoDerm in support of that -- both the science I presented in my write-up (which showed much higher ratio of active in muscle compared to systemic vs. oral or another topical) as well as anecdotal evidence (people who can't take 10mg, orally, who can do 200mg/day dosing for weeks at a time (meaning it is not just a time-release thing, because levels would build-up).
The mechanism for local delivery is the same in both products, what differs is the additives for increasing total delivery, because of the different physical properties of the active (lipophillic vs. hydrophillic), which changes the rate limiting step for total flux (particularly in the real world, where one showers)
As to adipose vs. fat -- i.e. that they are different tissues, so the pharmacokinetics might be different (I assume this is your concern, as you did not specify) -- the main difference is blood flow, which means the active is more likely to be taken up, in the muscle, than the fat -- and this is reflected by lower concentrations in the muscle vs. adipose -- but, as mentioned, the ratio and total concentration in muscle vs. systemic, was still much higher than vs. oral or a different delivery vehicle.
Androgens are metabolized locally, in all of these same tissue I mentioned earlier -- both Phase I and Phase II metabolism takes place, thus by the time the steroids are taken up by the blood, and delivered systemic, most of it has been metabolised to inactive compounds, which would be excreted, thus it would not activate negative feedback in the hypothalamus and testes.
As a bit of an aside, androgen are also quite lipolytic in SubQ fat, so might see some localized fat loss as well.
Welcome C!!
interestin'We make a habit of our science translating into real world results
As mentioned, several who made a homebrew have given very good feedback, but we are also going to get some testing going on a few boards, soon -- just waiting on production of samples from the people we sold the formula to.
As mentioned, several who made a homebrew have given very good feedback, but we are also going to get some testing going on a few boards, soon -- just waiting on production of samples from the people we sold the formula to.
Originally posted by Par Deus
We make a habit of our science translating into real world results
As mentioned, several who made a homebrew have given very good feedback, but we are also going to get some testing going on a few boards, soon -- just waiting on production of samples from the people we sold the formula to.
Excellent habit to be in!! I just find the idea of an OTC product doing something similar to site injecting steroids or prostaglandins to be rather, um, sensational...But I'm not saying you are lying, or putting out a bogus product...I await more feedback and would love to try this myself! My calves have always lagged NO MATTER WHAT I DO! If this stuff can help them improve I would be a big advocate of the stuff.
XtremeFormula
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Sytenhance is now available, will be on my website by tonight.
