teachers unions

[SheriV]

totally serious question...

if a school under performs- spectacularly, should a union contract regarding pensions be honored?

I'm a firm believer that as a parent I'm responsible for the health, shelter,good nutrition, well being, enrichment, love, and good citizenship of my children and beyond some minor help (homework, tutoring,minor supplies) the school is responsible for their education according to my communities standards (notice I didnt say federal) and if they can't manage that- they shouldn't get paid and I sure as fuck shouldn't have to be taxed to death for their pension

and I don't mean at our kids local level- I have zero issue with our kids schools- they do a lot with very little and I think they deserve every penny of their pay and contractual agreement

tell me why I'm wrong

 

[solidassears]

You are not wrong.

totally serious question...

if a school under performs- spectacularly, should a union contract regarding pensions be honored?

I'm a firm believer that as a parent I'm responsible for the health, shelter,good nutrition, well being, enrichment, love, and good citizenship of my children and beyond some minor help (homework, tutoring,minor supplies) the school is responsible for their education according to my communities standards (notice I didnt say federal) and if they can't manage that- they shouldn't get paid and I sure as fuck shouldn't have to be taxed to death for their pension

and I don't mean at our kids local level- I have zero issue with our kids schools- they do a lot with very little and I think they deserve every penny of their pay and contractual agreement

tell me why I'm wrong

 

[SheriV]

I wonder how that can be addressed without putting perfectly good teachers under attack/or on the defense

 

[first blood]

It's not a matter of right or wrong it's a matter of perception.
A teacher usually has about 6 years of college but their actually salary is low. The pension is how you attract a qualified smart person to come work for you instead of go get a job elsewhere for more money.
Even more important the pension is why they stay!!
I have a daughter and she will be going to public schools and I want the best teachers she can have. Some teachers may be horrible but most are exceptional. To penalize the good ones in one collective swoop is a good way to chase of talent.
The school that underperformed is an issue and it needs to be understood why.
An underperformed school is one where a certain amount of children fail to score high enough on standardized tests.
So we can't be certain it's the teachers fault. In fact most of the time it really can't be the teachers fault.
Teachers follow a strict curriculum and are evaluated several times throughout the year. If there evaluations are poor that's one thing but some of these schools have teachers doing well in their evaluation and yet the school underperformed. But with teaches not many variables...evaluations show all.

Let's say a school as 300 kids. And half don't hit the mark on the testing. Let's look at what happened to these 150 kids. Maybe 75 are just poor students with parents that don't care enough to sit with them every night when they have to do their homework.
Alot of variables. So this is a good place to look for the breakdown.

In the concept of ownership where each individual takes ownership of the problem you will see things get fixed. But just blaming a teacher and literally stop paying them is no way to fix anything
..especially when the teacher followed the curriculum and standards that are set by the federal and state Dept of ed.

A note on pensions. The money goes into a fund and then gets heavily invested. These funds are big enough to create their own mini economy with the investments...that's a plus for the country.
Teachers are taxpayers too. So they pay into the pensions.
Pensions have been around nearly 80 years.
A retired teacher collecting a pension won't be a burden on the system like someone with out a retirement plan.
10 cents of every dollar goes to education... that is pathetic.

America tends to get on a high horse and show alot of pride and say we are the greatest...we do have it the best here. And we are great but we are no where near our potential when it comes to education.
As citizens we should be challenging our politicians to building more schools hiring more teachers and making classes smaller! Instead of 10 make it 20 or 30 cents of every dollar pay for it.
If they don't want to stop the vast amount of taxes going toward military then just increase taxes.
I have no issue with higher taxes if it mean our nation's kids get a super education.


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[hoyle21]

I'll another group of public service employees to this list. When a cop shoots someone for no reason and the department get sued, let the police officers pension fund pay that bill, not the taxpayers. I guarantee that will fix the problem.


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[SheriV]

It's not a matter of right or wrong it's a matter of perception.
A teacher usually has about 6 years of college but their actually salary is low. The pension is how you attract a qualified smart person to come work for you instead of go get a job elsewhere for more money.
Even more important the pension is why they stay!!
I have a daughter and she will be going to public schools and I want the best teachers she can have. Some teachers may be horrible but most are exceptional. To penalize the good ones in one collective swoop is a good way to chase of talent.
The school that underperformed is an issue and it needs to be understood why.
An underperformed school is one where a certain amount of children fail to score high enough on standardized tests.
So we can't be certain it's the teachers fault. In fact most of the time it really can't be the teachers fault.
Teachers follow a strict curriculum and are evaluated several times throughout the year. If there evaluations are poor that's one thing but some of these schools have teachers doing well in their evaluation and yet the school underperformed. But with teaches not many variables...evaluations show all.

Let's say a school as 300 kids. And half don't hit the mark on the testing. Let's look at what happened to these 150 kids. Maybe 75 are just poor students with parents that don't care enough to sit with them every night when they have to do their homework.
Alot of variables. So this is a good place to look for the breakdown.

In the concept of ownership where each individual takes ownership of the problem you will see things get fixed. But just blaming a teacher and literally stop paying them is no way to fix anything
..especially when the teacher followed the curriculum and standards that are set by the federal and state Dept of ed.

A note on pensions. The money goes into a fund and then gets heavily invested. These funds are big enough to create their own mini economy with the investments...that's a plus for the country.
Teachers are taxpayers too. So they pay into the pensions.
Pensions have been around nearly 80 years.
A retired teacher collecting a pension won't be a burden on the system like someone with out a retirement plan.
10 cents of every dollar goes to education... that is pathetic.

America tends to get on a high horse and show alot of pride and say we are the greatest...we do have it the best here. And we are great but we are no where near our potential when it comes to education.
As citizens we should be challenging our politicians to building more schools hiring more teachers and making classes smaller! Instead of 10 make it 20 or 30 cents of every dollar pay for it.
If they don't want to stop the vast amount of taxes going toward military then just increase taxes.
I have no issue with higher taxes if it mean our nation's kids get a super education.


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see-
I dont know that I buy that- the average salary for teachers here is around 100k a yr gross but before benefits- our state has a lot of loan forgiveness and incentives for teachers education- not everywhere, but quite a lot
for our particular district we score in the top 10% in the nation for public schools- three districts over from here the kids are barely literate
I find this unacceptable- I pay my local taxes- our pto raises 100's of thousands a year-that I'm not a part of, those people are nuts- our sports are mostly parent funded
why does anyone income tax have to go to someone that doesn't do their job three districts over tho? why are those teachers protected by a union? how is that not a breach of contract?
and a masters degree is child's play here- stay at home mom's have that

I have 7 kids between my husband and I- blended family- 3 in college at the moment- 4 next fall- I'm intimately familiar how schools work
my 2 oldest were fucked over because I was too stupid to realize the school system wasn't up to par- they struggled when we moved to a different district

I don't begrudge good teachers their salary or their job, but why is everyone in my state paying for bad teachers?

 

[SheriV]

and as far as homework goes- and caring parents- our schools pulled homework three yrs ago for grades 5 and under- our scores went up

 

[SheriV]

oh...and our states teachers pension fund is about 26 million short on our budget-and were one of the most heavily taxed states in the country- so ya
I'm questioning where that money goes
that's pure mismanagement from the last three decades of government but there's a max exodus of young people from the state- so the economy won't get better anytime soon

 

[SheriV]

I'll another group of public service employees to this list. When a cop shoots someone for no reason and the department get sued, let the police officers pension fund pay that bill, not the taxpayers. I guarantee that will fix the problem.


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right- personal liability and accountability
this is what I'm getting at

 

[SheriV]

oh and common core? no thanks- I'm tired of the stupid dragging down my kids

and I just looked- our town spends $15,280 per student per year. Of that $200 is tuition(student dues etc), $229 is federal dollars, $2,888 is from the state, $11,964 is from the town

the super bad district Im thinking of spends $19,342 per student per year and I know for a fact they have a district wide free after school program for homework tutoring, library etc $600 tuition, federal $1220, state $13,282 and town $4,240

I don't think more money fixes the problem

 

[blackwax]

schools underperform for a lot of reasons but most often its parental involvement or lack there of. in poorer districts parents are less involved. also in many places schools are funded by property tax - some places don't generate much revenue and then schools fall apart... hard to put it at the feet of teachers. maybe ought to be the district folks that take the hit. personal responsibility applies to parents and students as well.

 

[first blood]

totally serious question...

if a school under performs- spectacularly, should a union contract regarding pensions be honored?

I'm a firm believer that as a parent I'm responsible for the health, shelter,good nutrition, well being, enrichment, love, and good citizenship of my children and beyond some minor help (homework, tutoring,minor supplies) the school is responsible for their education according to my communities standards (notice I didnt say federal) and if they can't manage that- they shouldn't get paid and I sure as fuck shouldn't have to be taxed to death for their pension

and I don't mean at our kids local level- I have zero issue with our kids schools- they do a lot with very little and I think they deserve every penny of their pay and contractual agreement

tell me why I'm wrong

Teachers salary is or an average of 100k....that is wild misinformation. In this country there may be some teachers making close to 100k but that's in the wealthiest area and a teacher who has been work for 35 years and about to retire. I live in an expensive state where salaries are some of the highest in the country...a teacher makes about 65 to 85 after 15 or 20 years.
But the average is way lower without starting salary in the 40s and 50s.

Same with cops and firemen...starting salary is in the 40s and it can take 10 to 15 years to hit top salary in some cases.

The reason why pension funds are short is because we had the financial problems in 2007/08...and those funds tool a big hit. Add to it that municipalities and state govts...stopped paying into the funds...

But funds are slowly climbing back and as long as the market stays strong they can build up again.
No one remembers before 2007 finicial woes that alot of funds were over 100%

Although teachers unions made a mistake. When the funds were flush ...govt said hey guys since the funds is so fat let's all take a pension holiday... Government. Whitman of NJ did this. And she not only used the state share but also raided the pension and used that money to balance the budget!

Police and fire Union said Don't do it...keep paying in. Even the the government still took their holiday the police and fire kept paying in their share...that's right teachers firemen and police pay into their funds...so some of that is their money in that Pool. And they pay taxes..

Anyway if you compare these funds police and fire is at 86 % while teachers are at 52 %.....why? Because price and fire kept paying in...

So teachers made that mistake. But the govt allowed it.

So that leads up to how these funds work as part of the economic model we use. Your tax dollars get put into the pension along with the employee share..like a 401k...and gets invested in the market...wall Street is all over it. When the market does well there is a return that the state uses...that's your taxes coming back to you.

That's one reason pensions were created and allowed to begin with.
Another reason is because they realized people don't save properly. It was a greater danger to society that people will retire and run out of savings and then the govt would have to take care of these people. That would be a great drain and burden on the tax payer.

Back 70 years ago people were encouraged to save their money..nowadays they are encouraged to spend. When they came up with pensions it was a product of the times.

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[SheriV]

I'm actually looking at our town contract with our union- they are roughly 100k per year averaged out- a school district over has a gym coach making 182k a yr

 

[first blood]

I'm actually looking at our town contract with our union- they are roughly 100k per year averaged out- a school district over has a gym coach making 182k a yr

Holy shit! Is that salary or salary plus benefits...incld. health insurance and what not?

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[SheriV]

and as a paramedic in mid 2000's I made roughly 70k a yr - to be fair I was in a munip and I pulled a lot of hours

don't lecture me about public service

our state cops starting salary fresh out of the academy is 65k but literally every cop I worked with made over 100k

I live in an expensive state so its likely your info is going to be different than my info

 

[SheriV]

Holy shit! Is that salary or salary plus benefits...incld. health insurance and what not?

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that's salary- that's not for the first two yrs-as I said, an average

 

[first blood]

Just in case your starting to wonder...both my parents my wife and friends of mine ...all teachers...my wife is making 65 after 15 years. My friends wife is making 75...in New jersey...highest salaries besides say California...so 182k is crazy that's a principles salary or even a super intendent

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[SheriV]

I don't live too far from you

one of my closest friends wife is a teacher - she works in an extra crappy district and makes around 80k a yr (recently had a discussion about income)
shes been licensed for about 6 years
her district has loan forgiveness- ours does not
I know her insurance is pretty good- they're a same sex couple and their insurance covered IVF for 4 rounds

 

[SheriV]

and our pension situation is different- borrowing against the bonds for literally the last 30 yrs
I wish I was making this up

 

[SheriV]

the town with the insane phys ed teacher salary- that town is absolutely ridiculous about spending money
I remember they spent more than 2 million for a storm cleanup - sq mile to sq mile were close- we spent 100k using prisoner labor (volunteer, minor offense)

 

[first blood]

Yeah nothing comes without some problems. I can see why so many get frustrated. And maybe some things need to be tuned up across the board but the typical mantra from politicians is always a way to deflect away from them toward the blue collar worker.
I think things like salary and pension and can all be discussed and made better but not until politicians admit they are part of the problem too...and we can fix all that nonsense too.
But will they?

Concessions have been made by the working class ...for decades. You can't make things right by taking it out of the middles hide. It won't work.


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[first blood]

and our pension situation is different- borrowing against the bonds for literally the last 30 yrs
I wish I was making this up

Yeah that's a big problem. And this happens everywhere.
This how the politicians work this little gem....
Hey look everybody vote for me again I kept your taxes down!
Then long after they're gone those bonds come do ....and taxes go up anyway.
Here in NJ the governor put a 2% cap on property taxes. Ok sounds good. Except most towns had no money to operate....so they all go and float bonds with wall st banks.... well sooner or later the town has to pay that bond so they float another to pay the 1st!!
That's still a tax sooner or later cause you can't keep float bonds...

Interesting tidbit.... the governor Chris Christie spent more time in NY and wall Street. Campaigning and raising money than in NJ....his wife has a big time job with wall Street. They are all in with banks.... and he facilitated a 2 % cap that was impossible for most municipalities but in his legislation there was a loosening of the restrictions to borrow from banks..... how convenient.

The next governor is gonna be the raise the tax governor who gets one term.

And on the story goes

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[meanstreek]

teachers union ?

boring 4 sure

trump luv

 

[first blood]

teachers union ?

boring 4 sure

trump luv

Huh?

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[hoyle21]

I dunno the fix. I'm not sure teachers are overpaid for their education requirements. All my teacher friends have at least a Masters and probably make between 70,000-80,000 a year. In Michigan we have been a doing a lot with Charters and Privates (Betsy DeVos is from here) and it's been just as bad. 75% of the charter schools have lower test scores than Detroit Public schools.

Private schools scores actually plummet when they experimented with scholarships and grants for poor families. It seems like we are throwing shit at a wall and hoping something sticks.


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[SheriV]

Well what's crazy is it has finally come out . But the governor keeps trying to squeeze more taxes out...he has the lowest approval rating of any governor we've had yet but he's like the only one that's fessed up to what the actual problem is with the pension/budget situation.

 

[SheriV]

Oh and I looked at that PE teachers salary again and it appears that they line item it to include ALL sports coaching salaries so that makes more sense-that district is very sports heavy with the usual stuff, plus soccer, hockey, swim, tennis, golf and skiing-so maybe they dobt actually have enough with that much organized sports.

 

[SheriV]

My correlation not causation observation is that we have kids from the crappy district I've had in mind right along in a school choice program come to our school system and they've flourished at our schools...

 

[Swiper]

My correlation not causation observation is that we have kids from the crappy district I've had in mind right along in a school choice program come to our school system and they've flourished at our schools...

almost every thread you start your bitching about something that is the result government whether it be direct or an unintended consequence of it.

government is the main problem to all your issues. well most your issues, some i don't even know what the fuck to begin.... haha

 

[first blood]

I dunno the fix. I'm not sure teachers are overpaid for their education requirements. All my teacher friends have at least a Masters and probably make between 70,000-80,000 a year. In Michigan we have been a doing a lot with Charters and Privates (Betsy DeVos is from here) and it's been just as bad. 75% of the charter schools have lower test scores than Detroit Public schools.

Private schools scores actually plummet when they experimented with scholarships and grants for poor families. It seems like we are throwing shit at a wall and hoping something sticks.


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Right. I am in New jersey and teachers here make about 60 to 80k with a masters! Now New Jersey has higher cost of living so salaries are higher here. So let's say NJ is at the top of the scale then the correct country wide average is about 40 to 50k a year.
But paying a teacher 70k is not crazy. It's a fine salary. Between that salary and the pension and Healthcare it's obviously a 100k a year job.
See thats what people forget. Teachers are paid a little lower but to make up for it they get good benefits . This way they stay around and make a career out of it. Not take their masters degree and go work for a private company.

And that leads to charter schools. They get paid poorly and and lousy benefits. So the minute they find a better job the leave. So it's common for charter schools to suck for a few reasons but a big one is ....teachers that are not happy so they perform like shit and always looking for better employment. This leads to a high turnover of employees. So inexperience is king.



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