Training for Definition? Fact or Fiction?

[Corsair]

Right, brief little spiel about me.

I'm tiny - and fully grown at 21 I'm sure. I'm 5'7, and 130 pounds soaking wet. To give you an idea of how small my bone structure is, the circumference of wrist - not diameter *circumference* is barely 6 inches. I've met 13 year old girls with bigger bone structure than me. As a result, there isn't a heck of a lot of room for muscle to be decked on - any gain at all for me is more or less fighting an extreme uphill battle - so, as a result, I train more for definition to my physique, rather than pure strength or size - I've more or less accepted neither is really worth the extreme efforts I personally would have to put myself through.

So, and forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, is there really such a thing as definition training? I've always heard "lower weights, more reps", but this has been countered by many sites and trainers I've talked to who say it does nothing special. And what would lower constitute? 50% of max? 75%?

All I know is that for some reason, I feel more of a "burn" if you will after an exercise, as well as the day after, if I use lighter weights, and more reps. Though whether this really does anything for me, I have no idea.

If I use weights that are heavy for me, (say curling 40 or 45 pound dumbells with proper posture for example) I feel less of a burn (heavy weight 4-6 reps). I can at most manage 10 reps the first set, maybe 6 or 7 the second, and I'm lucky to get to 5 on the third with challenging weights. I know for heavies you should try for 4-6, so maybe I just shouldn't push to 10 on the first try. At any rate, it "feels" like I'm getting less impact for my effort, though this could just be perception.

To make an already long story short, (sorry) what would be the most effective way to simply tone and define my muscles? Special exercises? Does the low-weight high-rep thing really work? Or should I just keep maxing my weight, even though I can't even complete three full sets?

I'm an ice hockey goalie, not a boxer, so strength and size aren't the most important to me - though if there was something that could help me there that I'm not doing, I'd give it a shot (and yes, I've tried higher calorie proper nutrition, and creatine - no luck. Proper nutrition actually made me just plain gain unneccesary weight, and creatine just made me piss all day)

Base line - defintion - how do I go for that?

Thanks for taking the time on this one!

 

[CED_2583]

Hiyas:

I'm by no means the most experienced person here, but I'm pretty sure that others will back me up on this: if you want mass and/or definition, you have to EAT RIGHT (as I see you mentioned in your post you've tried, but post your diet so that others can critique it!).

Diet is pretty much the most important aspect of bodybuilding and getting the physical results you desire: i.e. if you want to be cut and defined, you would go on a 'cut' (or long-term maintenance to slowly reduce fat) diet, in order to decrease body fat levels and show off the lean muscle.

I'm not quite positive, but I'm pretty sure that people w/ smaller joint structure typically turn out looking better when they gain muscle than those with larger joints (once more, take with a grain of salt from me ).

While proper training is important I can guarantee you that what the next person will post will be a similar comment about diet, as it is the key here, so just give an example day of what you typically eat.

 

[Corsair]

Thanks for the feedback, I've heard similar things before.

I've seen dieticians and trainers, and read enough examples here, so I know what constitutes a proper diet.

Point is, I'm simply looking to work on my defintion, and what I should do while actually in the gym to achieve somewhat more satisfactory results regarding that.

So if anyone can answer that one, just read my initial post, and let me know!

cheers.

 

[gopro]

The answer is YES and NO...

-yes, you can indirectly achieve greater definition by training faster (less rest between sets), and with certain intensity techniques (supersets, drop sets)...the result will be a greater calorie burn and a greater release of natural GH, a fat burning hormone

-no, in that its a myth that certain exercises will "cause" more definition in and of itself or that high reps "builds" definition and low reps build mass

None of this matters anyway unless proper diet/cardio is included.

 

[Corsair]

more or less that's what I was starting to learn...

thanks for the input - quite valuable!

cheers.

 

[geeris]

dude....i had exacly the same problem as u bro.
i was 6'1" 145 pounds.....my wrists were less than 6".......but through the right diet, training and supplementation....i now weight 171 pounds.
i was not happy with my mass at the time....so i worked on it...and i didn;t give up....even when i wasnt making gains.....but dude....keep the faith...it is possible!!
and also in my opinion if u want defenition....u have to diet and do some cardio as well.....but only after u gain the muscle u want.
when i was gaining muscle i was also gaining fat along with it....it is natural.....but after u are big enough \....u can focus on maintaining muscle mass and losing body fat!
good luck.

JJW.

 

[Twin Peak]

You cannot "cut up" a muscle. A muscle is or isn't. It is one size or another. Definition is ONLY determined by the size of the muscle and the amound of fat covering it.

 

[Arnold]

Originally posted by Corsair
Right, brief little spiel about me.

I'm tiny - and fully grown at 21 I'm sure. I'm 5'7, and 130 pounds soaking wet. To give you an idea of how small my bone structure is, the circumference of wrist - not diameter *circumference* is barely 6 inches. I've met 13 year old girls with bigger bone structure than me. As a result, there isn't a heck of a lot of room for muscle to be decked on - any gain at all for me is more or less fighting an extreme uphill battle - so, as a result, I train more for definition to my physique, rather than pure strength or size - I've more or less accepted neither is really worth the extreme efforts I personally would have to put myself through.

That is a great bone structure if your goal is bodybuilding, especially for competition. I am of similar height and size as you, and I am currently 195lbs. When I was in highschool (9th grade) I was the same height I am now at 125lbs.


So, and forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, is there really such a thing as definition training? I've always heard "lower weights, more reps", but this has been countered by many sites and trainers I've talked to who say it does nothing special.

No. Definition comes from an overall reduction in bodyfat. It has nothing to do with weight or reps.


And what would lower constitute? 50% of max? 75%?

If you can max 100 pounds (for one rep), then 75% of your max is 75lbs.


All I know is that for some reason, I feel more of a "burn" if you will after an exercise, as well as the day after, if I use lighter weights, and more reps. Though whether this really does anything for me, I have no idea.

As far as gaining size and strength the burn you feel (which is an excess of Lactic acid in the muscle) means nothing. If you do 100 reps with 10 pounds you will ultimately feel this burning sensation, but you will not gain any size or strength from it.


If I use weights that are heavy for me, (say curling 40 or 45 pound dumbells with proper posture for example) I feel less of a burn (heavy weight 4-6 reps).

That is true, but you're still overloading the muscle and ultimately causing adaption (growth). Getting a pump or a burn should not be the goal of your work-out, or the measure of a successful work-out.


I can at most manage 10 reps the first set, maybe 6 or 7 the second, and I'm lucky to get to 5 on the third with challenging weights. I know for heavies you should try for 4-6, so maybe I just shouldn't push to 10 on the first try. At any rate, it "feels" like I'm getting less impact for my effort, though this could just be perception.

You should always do warm-up sets, and build up to your heavy weight, then do a few "working sets" that will be in the 4-8 rep range (depending on your goals).


To make an already long story short, (sorry) what would be the most effective way to simply tone and define my muscles?

Lift weights, and eat properly.


Special exercises?

There is no such thing as a special exercise. For gaining size compound exercises using free weights are superior.


Does the low-weight high-rep thing really work?

Heavy weight in the 1-3 rep range will have more of an effect on strength, lighter weight high reps will increase endurance, but not much in regards to size or strength. Neither really have much to do with getting lean, of course the more muscle you have the higher your BMR will be 24 hours per day.


Or should I just keep maxing my weight, even though I can't even complete three full sets?

What does "maxing your weight" mean? What is your overall routine now? Not really following you on this question.


Proper nutrition actually made me just plain gain unneccesary weight.

Huh? Gaining unnecessary weight is caused by your daily food intake exceeding your daily caloric expendenture, not from proper nutrition. You could eat the most healthy, balanced diet, but if it's above your caloric needs you will get fat.


Base line - defintion - how do I go for that?

You start eating properly and weight training. You will need to do some work here, start reading thru threads, articles etc. Come up with a diet and training plan and then post it for us. No one here is going to create all of this for you, at least not for free!


Thanks for taking the time on this one!

You're welcome.

 

[Corsair]

appreciate the detail, nice to see a great layout.

and by "maxing my weight" I meant always striving to lift the heaviest weights I can.

Other than that, you've more or less outlined what I need to know, though finding an appropriate diet will take a fair ammount of searching through here, any links appreciated.

so 1-3 reps, or 4-6 of really heavies eh? I thought that's what it was...the whole low weight, more rep idea always seemed flawed...

I'm actually quite lean already. The upper half of my 6-pack shows nicely, so I'm not exactly carrying around too much excess weight.

And I tend to need 1-3 days recovery time before I can hit the gym again - so I take it extra cardio would be a neccessary to offset the extra calories on days off?

Cheers.

 

[Corsair]

And by excess weight - well I got up to 152 pounds once, which is 22 more than I am now. But I certainly didnt appear very muscular, or even fat for that matter. I tend to (at least used to and think I still do) have a fast metabolism, so this took well over a year.

I felt stronger - I could bench press more than I used to, and curl more than i used to, but not by a proportionately large ammount. I found my endurance had dropped however, as had my personal opinion of my overall "fitness". In an ice hockey goalie, especially at the level I play at, this is not good at all. Benching an extra 20-30 pounds is not worth the small spare tire, or decreased endurance.

Point is, I'm just finishing cutting that extra (and mostly useless) 22 pounds off, and I'm planning on rebuilding from scratch once I've at least defined my profile - hence why I wanted to know if their were any special tips to definition.

 

[Arnold]

Originally posted by Corsair

appreciate the detail, nice to see a great layout.

no problem.


and by "maxing my weight" I meant always striving to lift the heaviest weights I can.

well, I recommend you cycle this. I just finished a 6 week cycle where all of my working sets were in the 4-6 rep range, meaning I hit failure on the 4, 5 or 6 rep of each set. I am now on a six week cycle where all of my working sets are in the 6-10 rep range, typically hitting failure at around 8 reps, but sometimes as high as 10. If I would have continued the first cycle any longer first of all my body probably would not have responded and secondly I would have been risking overtraining, I also took a one week layoff between cycles.


Other than that, you've more or less outlined what I need to know, though finding an appropriate diet will take a fair amount of searching through here, any links appreciated.

there is a lot of info in the Diet & Nutrition forum, w8lifter has some good "Sticky threads", on the main site www.ironmagazine.com there are several articles, and you can aways look thru other members diaries.


And I tend to need 1-3 days recovery time before I can hit the gym again - so I take it extra cardio would be a neccessary to offset the extra calories on days off?

As a natural trainer you should never train more than 2 days in a row. There are many variations of routines, I use a typical 4 day split with 2 days of HIIT cardio.

Cheers.