Watching Bush Free-Fall

[Big Smoothy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Watching Bush Free-Fall

Originally posted by austinite

Well this should make you happy since that is what Kerry has been calling for.

Won't make me happy. The money has already been wasted, American credibility lost, terrorism increased. Too late now.

 

[BigBallaGA]

free fallingggggggg

i love Tom Petty !

 

[austinite]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Watching Bush Free-Fall

Originally posted by Mr_Snafu
Won't make me happy. The money has already been wasted, American credibility lost, terrorism increased. Too late now.

The American military has never been respected more. A free Iraq is a tremendous investment in Middle East peace. We are battling the terrorists on their turf now, not ours. Would you rather do it in the US? We didn't start this fight, but we will end it, no thanks to the likes of you.

 

[Stickboy]

I got this in the mail today. Take it with a grain of salt, but not everything happening in Iraq is bad. Here's part of the email:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)

Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.

School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.

Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.

The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.

The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.

The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.

100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.

Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.

Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.

Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.

Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.

Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.

Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.

An interim constitution has been signed.

Girls are allowed to attend school.

Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there.

I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if all these things are true, and I believe they are from others that I know that are serving over in Iraq at the moment - WHY doesn't the media show these things in addition to the bad stuff going on?

Curious to say the least.

 

[austinite]

Originally posted by Mr_Snafu
It's really sad to look at the military (NONE) experience of Wolfawitz, Libby, and Cheney, among the dozens of other wonks behind the scenes.

Nice job of selective criticism. You pointed out Cheney, Libby and Wolfowitz, yet made no mention of Powell, Ridge, Rumsfeld or Bush. All proud vets.

 

[kbm8795]

Originally posted by Stickboy
I got this in the mail today. Take it with a grain of salt, but not everything happening in Iraq is bad. Here's part of the email:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)

Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.

School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.

Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.

The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.

The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.

The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.

100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.

Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.

Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.

Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.

Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.

Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.

Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.

An interim constitution has been signed.

Girls are allowed to attend school.

Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there.

I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if all these things are true, and I believe they are from others that I know that are serving over in Iraq at the moment - WHY doesn't the media show these things in addition to the bad stuff going on?

Curious to say the least.

Even more curious would be to discover the source of that mailing.

 

[Spottieottie]

Yea, school is getting better over there but it is worsening up here. At least we can help other people!
We are having budget cuts all across the nation in schooling. Every school in this district has been cut to the bare minimum. Class sizes are getting larger and the teachers aren't getting paid anymore. They are also being fired because of the budget cuts.
Just because a country has elections doesn't exactly make it a democracy. It probably is still rigged like almost every election.

 

[Stickboy]

KBM, it was an email from a soldier in Iraq right now. I intentionally left his name off. As a matter of courtesy, I do not post peoples name and addresses on the net.

 

[Big Smoothy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Watching Bush Free-Fall

Originally posted by austinite
The American military has never been respected more. A free Iraq is a tremendous investment in Middle East peace. We are battling the terrorists on their turf now, not ours. Would you rather do it in the US? We didn't start this fight, but we will end it, no thanks to the likes of you.

By stating "American credibility," I was not specifically referring to the military, but moreso of international relations and diplomacy.

The military has lost a lot of credibilty because of failed intelligence and bungled moves by the D.O.D.

A free Iraq means a Shiite theocracy. And, it won't be that free under a Shiite theocracy.

Terrorists are in Iraq's turf because of Hussein's removal.

We did start this fight, and the U.S. is planning to cut and run this Summer for political motives.

 

[Stickboy]

I beg to differ Snafu.

The military hasn't lost credibility. It's still as powerful and deadly as ever. If DOD would take the gloves off, these insurgencies would fade into yesterdays news.

The new Iraqi constitution is already drafted and signed. Regardless of the Shiites, that approved constitution will be the law of the land. That's one of the reasons we will keep forces there.

Can you prove without a doubt that there were no terrorist in Iraq prior to Hussien's removal?

We didn't start it. Hussien did. He could have been a good boy and complied with the UN sanctions. He didn't, he bet we wouldn't do anything about it, and he lost.

I believe the goverment was planned to be handed over this year prior to any bullets flying.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I think handing over the gov't in June is a bad idea...

 

[X Ring]

yeah me too I think we could solve all this by sending mr. snafu over there to straighten it out, being the brilliant guy he is.

 

[curiousity]

Originally posted by austinite
Nice job of selective criticism. You pointed out Cheney, Libby and Wolfowitz, yet made no mention of Powell, Ridge, Rumsfeld or Bush. All proud vets.

Bush is a proud veteran? Ahh...the things you learn. I thought he was just a kid that used daddy's name to get into the Texas Air National Guard so that he would not have to go to war. Guess I was misinformed.

 

[Big Smoothy]

Originally posted by Stickboy
I beg to differ Snafu.

The military hasn't lost credibility. It's still as powerful and deadly as ever. If DOD would take the gloves off, these insurgencies would fade into yesterdays news

I agree.

The new Iraqi constitution is already drafted and signed. Regardless of the Shiites, that approved constitution will be the law of the land. That's one of the reasons we will keep forces there.

The Constitution is not going to be legitimate.

Can you prove without a doubt that there were no terrorist in Iraq prior to Hussien's removal?

The CIA already has. A million times over.

We didn't start it. Hussien did. He could have been a good boy and complied with the UN sanctions. He didn't, he bet we wouldn't do anything about it, and he lost.

Hussein lost. And so did the U.S. and colatition forces. Who won? Radical Shiites supported by and influenced by....Iran.

I believe the goverment was planned to be handed over this year prior to any bullets flying.

Hussein's power was stronger than ever. His use of the Fedayeen and Secret Police was just as strong as ever. Where did you read this? Insane....

 

[Stickboy]

They difference between you and me (no offense intended) is that you have to rely only on what you read. I don't.

Meaning, you can only get your information from what is published.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Where else would you get info, Stickboy? Do you have contacts in the Gov't?

 

[Spottieottie]

sounds like he has special informants in Iraq

 

[Spottieottie]

Why don't the textbooks mention Saddam in them?

 

[Big Smoothy]

Originally posted by Spottieottie
Just because a country has elections doesn't exactly make it a democracy. It probably is still rigged like almost every election.

At the federal level, America is not a democracy.

PACs, special interests, bureaucrats, and corporations weild the power, and make the decisions.

 

[OceanDude]

uhm snafu - ever consider it's just a capitalistic form for democracy? We pragmatically vote with our dollars. Then the people you elect take those votes away with higher taxes then give them back again right before the next election...

What a country!
OD

 

[Big Smoothy]

Originally posted by OceanDude
What a country!
OD

Indeed, OD. Indeed....

 

[austinite]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Watching Bush Free-Fall

[QUOTE We did start this fight, and the U.S. is planning to cut and run this Summer for political motives. [/QUOTE]


Correction: We will turn the government back over to the Iraqi people on 30 June. Our military will remain to provide security as long as required. This has been the plan all along, which I'm sure you know.

 

[Big Smoothy]

^ True Austinite,

But when the (political) handover is done on June 30th, we are going to see mayhem. And the result of the mayhem will be a government that is not friendly to the U.S. nor the West.

 

[ALBOB]

Originally posted by Mr_Snafu
^ True Austinite,

But when the (political) handover is done on June 30th, we are going to see mayhem. And the result of the mayhem will be a government that is not friendly to the U.S. nor the West.

I think you might be surprised. The "handover" will be purely ceremonial, the true power of running the country will still remain with the U.S. (They're just not advertising it.) It's going to be a VERY long time before we let them have COMPLETE control over there. I'm guessing in the 5-10 year range myself. As you know, true power resides with whoever has control of the military and the U.S. military is going to remain a presence over there for a very long time.

 

[OceanDude]

Agree Albob. We will have a forward base to control the entire region for many many years. We paid for it in blood and it is a univerally accepted law of conquest. After things stabalize ( I too am anticipating 10 years or so) and we get them socially acclimated to a new order it should be self sustaining. We will then slowly ease out.

-OD

 

[austinite]

Originally posted by Mr_Snafu
^ True Austinite,

But when the (political) handover is done on June 30th, we are going to see mayhem. And the result of the mayhem will be a government that is not friendly to the U.S. nor the West.

That would be the pessimistic outlook. I am looking for the Iraqis to gain more and more control of their own government, with our military presence tapering off month by month. I really think things will settle down once the US election is over, especially if Bush is reelected.

 

[Big Smoothy]

^ and ^^ and ^^^

The U.S. has military bases in Kygistan, Rep. of Georgia and Uzbekistan, and Qatar already....

It's going to cost a heck of a lot of money.

I do sound pessimistic. That is because of the factions and personalities involved.

 

[Big Smoothy]

Good job, numb-nuts. At first this debacle was amusing. Now it is down right embarrassing.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...406020,print.story?coll=ny-top-span-headlines

Agency: Chalabi group was front for Iran

BY KNUT ROYCE
WASHINGTON BUREAU

May 21, 2004, 7:29 PM EDT

WASHINGTON -- The Defense Intelligence Agency has concluded that a U.S.-funded arm of Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress has been used for years by Iranian intelligence to pass disinformation to the United States and to collect highly sensitive American secrets, according to intelligence sources.

"Iranian intelligence has been manipulating the United States through Chalabi by furnishing through his Information Collection Program information to provoke the United States into getting rid of Saddam Hussein," said an intelligence source Friday who was briefed on the Defense Intelligence Agency's conclusions, which were based on a review of thousands of internal documents.

The Information Collection Program also "kept the Iranians informed about what we were doing" by passing classified U.S. documents and other sensitive information, he said. The program has received millions of dollars from the U.S. government over several years.

An administration official confirmed that "highly classified information had been provided [to the Iranians] through that channel."

The Defense Department this week halted payment of $340,000 a month to Chalabi's program. Chalabi had long been the favorite of the Pentagon's civilian leadership. Intelligence sources say Chalabi himself has passed on sensitive U.S. intelligence to the Iranians.

 

[austinite]

Waging a war on terrorism is not easy. There are many pitfalls, accidents and mistakes that will be made. The cause remains just, and the American people understand this. I am glad the Bush administration had the courage to take this challenge on knowing how difficult it would be, and also has the resolve to stay the course.

It is easy to sit in the stands and point your finger in glee everytime something goes wrong because you want to see Bush fail.

It won't happen.

 

[OceanDude]

Snafu,
given all the rampant cases of journalistic adventurism and outward fraud (e.g. NY Times reporter) in the news media I tend to not get excited about anything I hear in the press. The same principal that they are quoting about how the Iranians are manipulating our man is the same principal that exists with reporters. The big difference with reporters is they all work for decentralized journalistic ???Mullahs??? who have their own religion and political will. Also note, not a single source is identified from the intelligence agencies only the so called ???intelligence sources???. This is pulp fiction journalism and at best should be considered only as conjecture, speculation, and rumor. Journalists have been doing this for 100 years to create sensationalism and to sell papers. What they are essentially doing is presenting hypothesis and floating trial balloons to see if they can shake out a real story. They also hope to shake out an inside sympathizer that will feed them real data that they can get a headline on that will be more credible than a weekly tabloid. In either the case they seek to get a longer period of revenue with low quality investigative work.

OD