what determines over-training and is it really that bad?

[tinyshrek]

Tiny, let me translate what you said. "Kenny, I have no idea about what you're talking about because I my brain is on deployment."

I really shouldn't use big words that you don't understand. I will make more of an effort to "dumb it down for you".



Tiny, google me and find out.



Evidently, you haven't learn much.



Would that it be...but it ain't.



Actually, there is one.

Your are ABOSOLUTE a moron.

Your buddy (as you stated in one of your post), Kenny

TINYshrek

[/QUOTE]

The first thing i did was google ya kenny why do you think I'm having a friendly argument with ya?


- SHREK

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

The first thing i did was google ya kenny why do you think I'm having a friendly argument with ya?


- SHREK[/QUOTE]

You're a liar and a moron. Not a good combination.

 

[tinyshrek]

Your a liar and a moron! Just because you took some classes and train people does not give you the right to talk in absolutes and say one thing works and another doesn't. PERIOD. Anyone with a lick of intellect would say that BUDDY. Science and training is forever evolving and growing so for your to say something isn't true is stupidity


- SHREK

 

[tinyshrek]

Now if you said these were your opinions of the truth from what you have experienced and seen then that would be fine. But for you to say This is the truth period. sorry ain't buyin it BUDDY


- SHREK

 

[dirtbiker666]

Exactly! Thanks Kenny. Morons I swear... When I was in Iraq I was on no gear whatsoever. I ran 3-5 miles 3-4 times a week. But there were periods where I trained in the gym over a month in a row with no problems at all recovering and made gains the entire time. My bet is your a lazy ass dirt biker and couldn't run a couple miles if his life depended on it. Your body conditions itself it's mind over matter. Sure your gonna feel tired and sore some days and not want to get outa bed but EVENTUALLY your body will adapt. My opinion is most people UNDERTRAIN and use overtraining a a way of pussing out of training hard(dirt biker)

Anyway SHrek wtf are you talking about I have the same out look as you. And when I was over seas I trained for a month at a time no breaks and ran at least 2 miles 6 days a week. I think people under train too I don't get where you thought I was saying people over train at all

 

[tinyshrek]

My apologies dirt biker. I was wrong and got your comment mixed up. I am sorry


- SHREK

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Your a liar and a moron! Just because you took some classes and train people does not give you the right to talk in absolutes and say one thing works and another doesn't. PERIOD. Anyone with a lick of intellect would say that BUDDY. Science and training is forever evolving and growing so for your to say something isn't true is stupidity


- SHREK

Tiny, I've provided you with some information. Now it is up to you.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[dirtbiker666]

My apologies dirt biker. I was wrong and got your comment mixed up. I am sorry


- SHREK

It's all good.

 

[sassy69]

Overtraining = underrecovery

This was me during my 2nd show prep in 2000. I dieted & trained from April to August for my first show, rebounded 18 lb in 6 days, then hit it again w/ a new coach whose diet really didn't work well for me (frankly too much carb, not enough cardio) - but the combination of fucking balls to the wall training w/ a lot of "reps to failure" because he was a big fan of spotted burn out sets, bad showing at the target show because of his shitty diet and another month of still fighting to get the fat down. I finally hit a wall and was emotionally exhausted trying to train and couldn't make it thru a workout w/o breaking down & crying. I couldn't sleep for shit and just fully burnt out.

The end result is that I actually gained another 30 lb post 2nd show and it took me nearly a year to get rid of it because of what felt like metabolic shutdown. When your body tells you to go fuck yourself is when you're overtraining.

What the OP is talking about is just really not allowing sufficient muscle recovery time. In that case it really is about underrecovery of the muscle group. True overtraining is when your body just won't let you go any further. Not only do you stall out, you're overall quality of life starts to revert because your CNS is just fucking done.

 

[BUCKY]

don't you have to "kill" the muscle for it to grow? "Kill" meaning you have to push it to the limit even when sore. That's how I did it anyway. My pecs grew when I did it daily in high school. I was told it was wrong but these same people did not even look like they work out. It's true I look swollen. LOL.

I find it ridiculous that most of you would suggest once or twice a week is sufficient. I thought 24 hours is enough rest time for the muscle. I guess if you wanted to take your time in getting bulk, you'd follow the procedure you all suggested. That might take you 2 years instead of 1, wouldn't you agree? The more you're at it daily, the more you will grow and get bulk and cut, maybe not stronger (sometimes just because you peaked your max, you'd think you never got stronger). Perhaps you simply maxed out?

P.S. over-training will NOT kill you!

 

[Cork]

We could go by Fred Hatfield's knowledge and learn that it takes 72 hours for a major muscle group to recover from a balls to the wall intense workout, 48 hours to recover from a moderately intense workout, and only 12-24 hours to recover from light to moderate work. That can be found in his book "Hardcore Bodybuilding."

Kenny, instead of bashing tinyshrek and getting off topic, can you elucidate why you think it is so easy to over train?

Sassy69 brings up clear evidence that it is possible in extreme cases. Her over training could have simply been avoided with more food and rest in the beginning. Obviously contest preps don't normally allow for that. I even had the same thing happen to me for my second bodybuilding contest. I was under rested and underfed, my hormones gave a big "fuck you", and the post contest rebound was awful. Under rested is even a gross understatement. The caffeine abuse was insane. I've learned from that mistake though.

Even with my own burnout experience, I still feel strongly that normal gym goers who do not put themselves under these extreme circumstances should have no fear of over training.

 

[ALBOB]

P.S. over-training will NOT kill you!

It sure could. When you reach the point of overtraining not only your Central Nervous System is ravaged, so is your imune system. You could easily catch something as simple as a cold or flu and not have the recovery ability to get over it. The chances of you actually dieing are slim to none but, you're definitely leaving yourself open to getting sick.

sassy69's post hit the nail on the head, you end up moving backwards instead of forwards. When that happens you need to back off your workouts, not increase them.

 

[tinyshrek]

This to a certain extent happend to me when I was dieting for my show. My liver and kidneys were acting wacky I started retaining water. Went to the doc ran a bunch of test and said I had adrenal burnout. Shit like tren, Clen, ECA allowed me to push my body to far and my body crashed.... Wasn't overtraining because I would have never been able to push my nervous system that far without the extra CNS stmulation which is what my sports doc said


- SHREK

 

[BUCKY]

well always listen to your body as the saying goes. I just disagree with people here saying once or twice a week of training a certain muscle group is sufficient. I think for mass gainers (deadlift, squats, and bench press) 3x a week seem ok. I only do it 2x a week (deadlift). I've done it 3x a week but had to back off it (I listened to my body). In high school, I was able to bench press daily. It was easy because it was a lazy man's workout (you simply lay there and lift). Deadlift and squats you have to pace your self or you drop to the ground and sprain your back.

It sure could. When you reach the point of overtraining not only your Central Nervous System is ravaged, so is your imune system. You could easily catch something as simple as a cold or flu and not have the recovery ability to get over it. The chances of you actually dieing are slim to none but, you're definitely leaving yourself open to getting sick.

sassy69's post hit the nail on the head, you end up moving backwards instead of forwards. When that happens you need to back off your workouts, not increase them.

 

[ALBOB]

well always listen to your body as the saying goes. I just disagree with people here saying once or twice a week of training a certain muscle group is sufficient. I think for mass gainers (deadlift, squats, and bench press) 3x a week seem ok. I only do it 2x a week (deadlift). I've done it 3x a week but had to back off it (I listened to my body). In high school, I was able to bench press daily. It was easy because it was a lazy man's workout (you simply lay there and lift). Deadlift and squats you have to pace your self or you drop to the ground and sprain your back.

But maybe for them it IS sufficient. Mike Mentzer's High Intensity Training emphasized taking a muscle to total muscular failure and then giving it sufficient time and nutrients to recover and get stronger. When you were in high school you had enough Testosterone and HGH running through your veins that maybe you could work a body part 3x per week and have it sufficiently recover between workouts. At my current advanced age there's no way on Earth I could do that. I try to get as close as I can to failure on each body part and even one time per week is almost too much for me. Everybody's different and will have different recuperative abilities.

 

[BUCKY]

Ok is what you are saying "less is more"? I might try and do deadlifts just once a week then. Would you say that training a muscle group once a week is sufficient? When you mentioned to "stimulate muscle growth" even with just once a week of training a muscle group, I think what you're saying is "less is more"? What's the science behind this? I have to look into it as well. The way I train is to be as sore as possible. LOL. I think it works for me but I have yet to try your suggestion of "less is more". I'm in the music recording arts and the "less is more" technique does apply when using effects and such. Also, the more tools I have in the recording studio, the less I become creative. I remember when I was just starting out and had less tools, I was creative than now. I think there is science behind "less is more". Remember that back in the old days, people did much better than anyone these days with all the tools and technology we have.

Arnold took days off. He was dedicated and smart enough to know when to train and not. You didn't read enough.

Most seasoned lifters will deadlift about once a week.

The goal is to stiumlate muscle growth not anniliate it.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Rajahori]

Someone just told me that Olympic means somebody need to training watching someone really over training gathered together to competition！ Maybe this is the answer!

 

[ALBOB]

Someone just told me that Olympic means somebody need to training watching someone really over training gathered together to competition！ Maybe this is the answer!

I sure hope that's not the answer because I don't understand a single thing you just said.

 

[BUCKY]

huh?

Someone just told me that Olympic means somebody need to training watching someone really over training gathered together to competition！ Maybe this is the answer!

 

[ALBOB]

Ok is what you are saying "less is more"? I might try and do deadlifts just once a week then. Would you say that training a muscle group once a week is sufficient? When you mentioned to "stimulate muscle growth" even with just once a week of training a muscle group, I think what you're saying is "less is more"? What's the science behind this? I have to look into it as well. The way I train is to be as sore as possible. LOL. I think it works for me but I have yet to try your suggestion of "less is more". I'm in the music recording arts and the "less is more" technique does apply when using effects and such. Also, the more tools I have in the recording studio, the less I become creative. I remember when I was just starting out and had less tools, I was creative than now. I think there is science behind "less is more". Remember that back in the old days, people did much better than anyone these days with all the tools and technology we have.

Sorry, missed this post earlier.

I'm saying less CAN be more. It all depends on how you train your muscles and your own personal recovery ability. As with anything involving bodybuilding, everyone's different. This is why keeping a log is so important. You keep track of your training routine and, more importantly, your progress. If you're not getting stronger, something's wrong.

To start your research into "less is more" I highly recommend getting one of Mike Mentzer's books on High Intensity Training. His philosophy was to work a particular muscle group to total muscular failure and then get out of the gym and give it enough time to recover and get stronger. For some people that only takes three or four days, other people need a week, some folks need even more than a week. Again, everybody's diferent.

 

[Braveheart82]

In my opinion, your level for overtraining will be different for each person. I can tell what mine is when I start getting SUPER cranky. Then I just dial it back a little and find my sweet spot. Rest IS important so take that into account. Just experiment to find what your optimal point is.

 

[BUCKY]

if one is not getting stronger, could it be that you've reached your peak/max? Taking a week off and getting back at it usually will make anyone "sore" again instead of "used to it". Feels a bit like when you've started lifting weights for the first time, you get sore for a few days to a week. Taking a week off then gettign back at it feels like you're starting all over again. For me, 1-2 days off works. 3-4 days off is ok as well.

Sorry, missed this post earlier.

I'm saying less CAN be more. It all depends on how you train your muscles and your own personal recovery ability. As with anything involving bodybuilding, everyone's different. This is why keeping a log is so important. You keep track of your training routine and, more importantly, your progress. If you're not getting stronger, something's wrong.

To start your research into "less is more" I highly recommend getting one of Mike Mentzer's books on High Intensity Training. His philosophy was to work a particular muscle group to total muscular failure and then get out of the gym and give it enough time to recover and get stronger. For some people that only takes three or four days, other people need a week, some folks need even more than a week. Again, everybody's diferent.

 

[ALBOB]

You're relying far too much on DOMS as an indicator of progress, it's not. Strength increses are an indication of progress. As far as reaching your peak/max, there's no such thing. Your example of taking a few days off is essentially what I'm talking about, you're allowing your muscles to fully recover from the last time you worked them. Again, less CAN be more.

 

[Cork]

if one is not getting stronger, could it be that you've reached your peak/max?

Like ALBOB said, no one has ever reached their peak.