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What exactly is overtraining?

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Originally posted by gopro
Once you reach a certain level, I respectfully disagree. Or at least firmly believe the most effective approach is total failure training.
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A certain level, perhaps. However for the majority, I don't believe it's the most effective approach by any means.

However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.

No doubt, there are hundreds of ways to skin a cat, and as the cat gets wiser, you have to fool it.
 
Originally posted by Dante B.
However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.
Click to expand...

this is the key IMO, you have to cycle training to failure just like anything else, or you will end up in a state of over training.

of course training to failure is only one of many variables that will contribute to over training.
 
Originally posted by Dante B.
A certain level, perhaps. However for the majority, I don't believe it's the most effective approach by any means.

However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.

No doubt, there are hundreds of ways to skin a cat, and as the cat gets wiser, you have to fool it.
Click to expand...

My volume remains exactly the same all year long. What does constantly change is training protocols, rep ranges, TUTs, rep speed, exercises, etc. However, all workouts contain the same amount of sets and take the same amount of time. All sets are taken to momentary concentric failure for sure, and often beyond this.

For beginners and intermediates, I do not believe failure training to be necessary, just "progression." But as you become advanced, I believe that failure training...the majority of time...becomes necessary to reach new heights.

There are many ways to skin a cat, but the wiser the cat, the more efficient training method he will use.
 
There are many ways to skin a cat, but the wiser the cat, the more efficient training method he will use
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And that, of course, is where we disagree----what is truly efficient, in the many contexts (beginner, so on).
 
Originally posted by Dante B.
And that, of course, is where we disagree----what is truly efficient, in the many contexts (beginner, so on).
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Don't think we disagree completely. Beginners through intermediates can train many different ways and progress nicely without ever hitting failure. It is the very advanced that I feel NEED to hit failure to progress. So perhaps we simply disagree about the latter, not the former.
 
Bump.......For all those who do not know how to do a search!
 
Originally posted by camarosuper6
Also, its not just your muscle that you could be overtraining. Studies suggest muscles actually could be ready for another workout anywhere from 24 to 72 hours (depending on your genetics and such), but your CNS (central nervous system) usually takes much longer to fully recover, making most of us have to wait more days than people who have extremely fast recovery rates, usually due to genetics, anabolics, or both.
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So do u think mind-strenghtening exercises e.g. (meditation), would help ones CNS recover better? i love meditation and it does wonders...maybe it does help with faster CNS recovery...i dunno.. just a thought
 
Originally posted by gopro
Once you reach a certain level, I respectfully disagree. Or at least firmly believe the most effective approach is total failure training.
Click to expand...

Says who?

It basicly comes down to that 98% of the people do not know how to tran effectivly.

Im really looking forward to this discussion, considering I have compiled tons of information on the subject and I feel people should be advised as to what NOT to do when training.


Kc
 
Originally posted by gopro
My volume remains exactly the same all year long. What does constantly change is training protocols, rep ranges, TUTs, rep speed, exercises, etc. However, all workouts contain the same amount of sets and take the same amount of time. All sets are taken to momentary concentric failure for sure, and often beyond this.

For beginners and intermediates, I do not believe failure training to be necessary, just "progression." But as you become advanced, I believe that failure training...the majority of time...becomes necessary to reach new heights.
Click to expand...

Boy am i gunna have fun with this one.


Kc
 
Most athletes never overtrain because they carefully plan their training protocols over a 12 month period (macrocycle) I know this isn't appropriate for BB ( could be necessary when planning your competitve calender? )
but it's a great way to goal set and stay focused long term !!!!
 
Originally posted by MissOz
Most athletes never overtrain because they carefully plan their training protocols over a 12 month period (macrocycle) I know this isn't appropriate for BB ( could be necessary when planning your competitve calender? )
but it's a great way to goal set and stay focused long term !!!!
Click to expand...


Actually that is untrue. Most athletes train to the point where they are overtraining. This is what is reffered to as 'overreaching' and should be done during the loading cycle. (7-14) days.

What is interesting with all these programs, Max-OT, HIT, GoPro's workouts, and many other programs is NONE of them maximally stimulate the system for adaption.

The problem with things are like i said before, people dont understand the relationship between volume, intensity, frequency and density for bodybuilders. From what I've gathered Dante is on the right track but im not sure if he has the whole big picture, but im sure he would pretty much agree with everything i say.

All i can say is expect something from me in the next month or so that will really hit the bodybuilding world and industrial as far as how people, especially bodybuilders organize their training. Unlike most of the other programs (discluding HST and DFHT) I'll have research on my side!


Kc
 
Fortified, I noticed the MelSiff.com link in your signature. When will that site be up and running?? Also, do you know of a site where I can purchase 'supertraining"?? I can't seem to find it...lol
 
Fortified I don't agree with you there on the point of "overtraining", the athletes training cycle should not let them enter into the competition phase overtrained and/or injured . You can't train hard and play hard at the same time!!The whole idea behind macrocycle is to peak them in the best condition.
 
Macrocycle is reffered to a year plan. A peak is considered a "Mesocycle" or "Microcycle" All are different lengths and all are for different purposes.

Ofcourse an athlete isnt going to be 'loading' before a competition, the athlete will be deloading or in a state or rest or moderate loading.

It would be interesting to find out where you get your literature from on periodization.


Kc
 
Fort...I was just keeping things simple , I'm quite aware of periodization etc macro,meso,micro etc etc etc etc...it would be interesting to find out what exactly is your point ....Cheers x
 
From what i've read we dont seem to be on the same page as far as the basic principles of periodization go and also understanding of managing load.

The whole point of periodization is to overreach then taper. It also might be good to get a proper definition of overreaching and overtraining as they are two totally seperate things.


Kc
 
Fort ....you should take a page out of Mel Siff's book !!!
 
Originally posted by FortifiedIron
Boy am i gunna have fun with this one.


Kc
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Oh really? C'mon, I need a good laugh.
 
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Originally posted by FortifiedIron
Actually that is untrue. Most athletes train to the point where they are overtraining. This is what is reffered to as 'overreaching' and should be done during the loading cycle. (7-14) days.

What is interesting with all these programs, Max-OT, HIT, GoPro's workouts, and many other programs is NONE of them maximally stimulate the system for adaption.

The problem with things are like i said before, people dont understand the relationship between volume, intensity, frequency and density for bodybuilders. From what I've gathered Dante is on the right track but im not sure if he has the whole big picture, but im sure he would pretty much agree with everything i say.

All i can say is expect something from me in the next month or so that will really hit the bodybuilding world and industrial as far as how people, especially bodybuilders organize their training. Unlike most of the other programs (discluding HST and DFHT) I'll have research on my side!


Kc
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You see, I just found this and already had a good laugh!! Here comes someone...whoever you are...that is going to "revolutionize" the way we train, and show why MY and several other very well known programs, are simply not optimal. And guess what? He'll have research on his side!! Maybe some nice studies...well worded and all with scientific like mumbo jumbo!

Well buddy, I could care less. You want to know what makes a program successful and what type of "study" really has meaning? That would be when tons and tons of people make the best gains of their life on a program...when they cannot believe how their body is changing for the better everyday...when you have been training for 14 years, hit a plateau, then go on a program and gain another 25-30 lbs of muscle...THAT IS SUCCESS and solid proof that the program works!

Go ahead and "show us the way." Just try and not to be so arrogant as to think that your way is the very best way..b/c its not. There are extremely effective ways to train and ways that suck. There is no "best." P/RR/S has proven itself to be incredibly effective for countless #s of people and it is growing by leaps and bounds...but Max -OT, HIT, and several others are also on top of the heap.

Man, I really love this bullsh%t.
 
Oh, come on GP...you know that if studies can prove it, then it must be true? I can refer you to at least two studies that can prove that. :laugh:

I'm waiting to see this thing that is going to "hit the bodybuilding world and industrial" with this new groundbreaking research. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by gopro
You see, I just found this and already had a good laugh!! Here comes someone...whoever you are...that is going to "revolutionize" the way we train, and show why MY and several other very well known programs, are simply not optimal. And guess what? He'll have research on his side!! Maybe some nice studies...well worded and all with scientific like mumbo jumbo!

Well buddy, I could care less. You want to know what makes a program successful and what type of "study" really has meaning? That would be when tons and tons of people make the best gains of their life on a program...when they cannot believe how their body is changing for the better everyday...when you have been training for 14 years, hit a plateau, then go on a program and gain another 25-30 lbs of muscle...THAT IS SUCCESS and solid proof that the program works!

Go ahead and "show us the way." Just try and not to be so arrogant as to think that your way is the very best way..b/c its not. There are extremely effective ways to train and ways that suck. There is no "best." P/RR/S has proven itself to be incredibly effective for countless #s of people and it is growing by leaps and bounds...but Max -OT, HIT, and several others are also on top of the heap.

Man, I really love this bullsh%t.
Click to expand...

lol, I also love the bullshit of imaginary muscle fibers :)

Ok Mr. Pro, I think you agree with me that stress= adaption. Granted each indvidual has a different rate at which they adapt but the bottom line is that Stress is the key factor for adaption. Now would you please enlighten me with your 'way' of thinking and with 'your' research as to the best way to 'apply' stress maximally to stimulate 'adaption'

You might also want to forget about your little comments about how studies are irrelavent, unlike you (your fiber studies) my studies i post and write about not only come from scientist but world renown Eastern Bloc and Western coaches. Namely Fry, Siff, Zatsiorsky, Stone and several others. Which of course these individuals have accomplished more then what the majority of us will ever in life.

Also before you even think about replying back, you better open up your books regarding periodization.


Kc
 
My dad can beat up your dad. I have a study that proves it.

Dude, it's the internet. Holy crap. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by ponyboy
Oh, come on GP...you know that if studies can prove it, then it must be true? I can refer you to at least two studies that can prove that. :laugh:

I'm waiting to see this thing that is going to "hit the bodybuilding world and industrial" with this new groundbreaking research. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Actually the line of thinking is very similar to that of DFHT and HST, but with different loading patterns and different approach to volume/loading and other things.

Kc
 
Originally posted by FortifiedIron
lol, I also love the bullshit of imaginary muscle fibers :)

Ok Mr. Pro, I think you agree with me that stress= adaption. Granted each indvidual has a different rate at which they adapt but the bottom line is that Stress is the key factor for adaption. Now would you please enlighten me with your 'way' of thinking and with 'your' research as to the best way to 'apply' stress maximally to stimulate 'adaption'

TRY MY PROGRAM AND PUT 100% EFFORT INTO IT AND YOU WILL BE ENLIGHTENED.



You might also want to forget about your little comments about how studies are irrelavent, unlike you (your fiber studies) my studies i post and write about not only come from scientist but world renown Eastern Bloc and Western coaches. Namely Fry, Siff, Zatsiorsky, Stone and several others. Which of course these individuals have accomplished more then what the majority of us will ever in life.

WELL, MY FRIEND. I HAVE SAT DOWN WITH MY SHARE OF WORLD RENOWN TRAINERS IN MY LIFETIME AS WELL, SO NAME DROPPING DOES NOT IMPRESS ME....RESULTS IMPRESS ME.

Also before you even think about replying back, you better open up your books regarding periodization.

I DON'T NEED TO OPEN UP ANY BOOK, OH, EXCEPT MY BOOK OF CLIENTS THAT ARE GETTING MORE GAINS ON MY PROGRAM THAN THEY EVER DREAMED POSSIBLE.

GO BACK TO FORTIFIED OR WBB, WHERE PEOPLE WILL TRULY BE IMPRESSED WITH YOU.


Kc
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Originally posted by FortifiedIron
:thumb: That is interesting considering that just in another thread or other threads you seem to be avoiding post.

Kc
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Yes, you are correct KC, your intellect is so incredibly high and your knowledge is infinite, I cannot possibly argue with you. You think and speak on a level that is beyond my comprehension. I can only dream to aspire to be half the person that you are, and achieve what you have in life, congratulations...shhhh...I think I hear WBB calling you.
 
Whoa.

It seems the further we delve into the science of bodybuilding, the more we tend to disagree. It wasnt too many years ago that there was a standard set by certain people in the business, and it was followed religiously, even though there were no scientific facts or research backing many things bodybuilders used to do. Then of course things got interesting, and especially in the last 5 years or so, science has shown us things in bodybuilding that is truly changing the way people approach this whole idea of building muscle. Yet, we disagree now more than ever in history.

I think this is great. I love the debates, the discussions applying different theories to see what works best. But in all honesty, if we HAVE learned one thing in the past 30 years or so, it should be that our technology has allowed us to learn tons of great information we used to never know, but at the same time, science is much like the Bible. It gives us a great outline, but doesnt always get into the details. Thats for each person to discover on their OWN.

You can debate day and night about this that and what not, but hell, I think half the fun of bodybuilding and science, is trial, and error and getting the chance to see YOUR OWN BODY change and adapt and improve. In all honesty, each person is different, and even though there are certain principles of science and hypertrophy that shouldnt be ignored, the simple fact that something works for you that may not be scientifically as effecient as another method according to the laws of whatever, the beauty is because we are each so different, there will always be something going on that doesnt always perfectly equate to the way science says it should.

Fortified Iron has great points. GoPro has great points. Thats whats so fun about all of this. There are a million different ways to get to where your going, instead of getting heated about how you get there, enjoy the journey because each persons is unique. :)
 
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