What's going on with my bench?

[kal525]

For about the past month I have been using the bench press machine where the bar rolls on a track so that I can stop it by just twisting my wrists and having it hook onto the steel it rolls on. I was pretty happy that I was making gains and figured that It was a valid representation of what I could bench normally without the spotting mechanism.

When I tried the normal bench I was really surprised and discouraged to see that I could not bench what I was benching on the spot machine. With the spotting machine I could do 155 no problem 8 times, and 205 was my 1RM. On the normal bench though with 155, I was struggling to get it up a 5th time and didn't add any more weight because I didn't have a spot.

So what's going on here? Is the bar on the machine I was using not 45 lbs, or was the fact that it was rolling on a track reducing some of the load?

 

[Triple Threat]

First of all, the bar in the machine is probably not 45 lb. Secondly, when you use a machine, you are not using muscles to control the motion of the bar in any direction other than vertical.

You have proved once again why machines are inferior to free weights.

All is not lost, however. Just start using free weights, but at a lower weight than what you are used to. In time, you'll be back to where you are now with the machine.

 

[Mudge]

Originally posted by kal525
For about the past month I have been using the bench press machine where the bar rolls on a track so that I can stop it by just twisting my wrists and having it hook onto the steel it rolls on.

That is called a smith machine, my advice is STOP USING IT. My bench actually goes DOWN when I use it for the flat press, due to its screwed up range of motion it kills my shoulders. I CAN use it on the incline but other than that I have used it for delt pressing and NOTHING more.

Use a real bench, or dumbells - IMO. The smith machine at my gym provides approximately 25 pounds of assistance or so, I incline press not much less than my flat bench for the same reps, but of course its not the same weight.

 

[ArduousMeister]

I find using the smith puts my shoulder into a wierd range of motion. I found this regardless of if I was doing shoulder or chest press. I too work out alone without a spot, but now I use DBs for almost everything shoulder or chest related. This gives me a good range off motion, aloows my right side to isolate from my left to prevent the more dom side from doing most of the work. And more important is that if I get into any trouble I can drop the DBs to either side of me.

 

[kal525]

Ok, I think that's a good idea, I won't make as much gains though because I always to go the gym alone so I won't have a spotter.

To shift this topic a little, Mudge, I wanted to ask you about what you said in a different post:

"If your looking for strength I see, not counting the warm ups, powerlifters using 8 reps and then going down to 2-3, with a perhaps once monthly or so max effort."

I have been aiming for strength and mass in my workouts and I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing, so just let me know if what I say is correct. Working out fast-twitch muscle fibers (power range) will make you gain strength, or at least the type of strength that will allow you to lift more weight for a few reps. Working out slow-twitch muscle fibers (rep-range) will make you gain mass and increase your endurance strength.

What confuses me is why does an increase in slow-twitch fibers account for mass gain, but not an increase in fast-twitch?

And you said that power lifters only max out once a month. Wouldn't it be beneficial, regardless if you were a bodybuilder or powerlifter, for you to max out? If not, then why?

I have been doing the following routine for each muscle group:
12, 10, 8, 6, 2, 12, 12 5 min break 12, 10, 8, 6, 12, 12

By doing this I'm hoping to call on my slow-twitch muscle fiber at the start and end of each set wave, with my fast-twitch muscle fibers getting called in the middle.

Do you think this is too much, or will it meet my intended goals? I've been struggling with my bench for a while and now thanks to the stupid smith machine gains that I thought I was making only translate to gains on that one infernal machine. For some reason, I have always been able to do more weight on chest flyes than on the bench and I have always felt stronger in this area. My upper chest is probably the weaest part of my chest and I'm starting to think that it might have something to do with my weak bench, although I thought that chest flyes would help my bench press.

Alright, enough rambling for me, sorry to deviate from the smith machine a little, but I think that's all the attention it deserves at this point. I'd appreciate any pointers you can give.

 

[Mudge]

Originally posted by kal525
What confuses me is why does an increase in slow-twitch fibers account for mass gain, but not an increase in fast-twitch?

I have not been memorizing these fiber articles, but they are around. I always thought the other way around though, because if you look at a sprinter he is beefy, if you look at a marathoner, they are scrawny. Fast twitch fibers are not endurance fibers, and so on.

And you said that power lifters only max out once a month. Wouldn't it be beneficial, regardless if you were a bodybuilder or powerlifter, for you to max out? If not, then why?

The problem is, these guys are not benching a measly 2 or 3 hundred pounds, these guys are benching 600+, squatting 900+, etc - in other words they are so far beyond the range of what is normal that they are at SERIOUS risk of injury. Last article I read from a powerlifter stated that he trained the body once every 8 days, and that others in his field thought he was NUTS for training so frequently. Now for a bodybuilder this is nonsense, but bodybuilders are benching in the 500s and occasional 600s, these guys are not benching 800+ like todays top powerlifters - see where I'm going?

When you come across people benching in the 400s and beyond, you are going to hear tales of "the day I tore my pec" or "the day I tore my lat" and so on, whats that old saying, shyt happens! Now while the muscle gets stronger, and the attachment point will too, there are limits to what the body can do safely. If your muscles are capable of putting up an 800 pound bench, the chest muscles are going to be pulling on thier attachment points like a mother, as well as the triceps lats etc, there is always a chance something will give way. So max efforts are more occasional, this is one big thing that keeps me away from powerlifting, it is dangerous.

I tried using the smith to see how much of an ego boost I could get by slapping on an additional 20-30 pounds or so, and found out quickly that it was painfull and that I wasn't going to be adding any weigh that day at all, in fact it ruined the rest of my workout because it hurt my shoulders so much, and my form was the "same" as on the flat bench minus the screwed up ROM on the smith. I'm not a huge presser but currently I can put up 295 x 4 reps without a spotter, which seems like enough that if something goes wrong it will hurt, so I try to play it safe, and staying far away from the smith is a given. I really like it for incline work but currently I am using dumbells which I also like alot.

Check out this thread on fiber types:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19614

These two articles:
http://www.ironmagazine.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=44
http://www.ironmagazine.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=14

I suppose I will read them again too

How to bench big, proper form is important! On the incline work I go higher on the chest, above the nipple. On flat bench or decline I go BELOW the nipple.
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11158

 

[kal525]

Thanks Mudge, i'll definitely check out those links. I guess I thought that slow-twitch was for mass because I kept reading people saying that they wanted to work on strength first and then mass........but aren't they the same thing. To get stronger you need to work your fast-twitch muscle fibers (low reps heavy weight at some point in your workout), and if an increase in fast-twitch muscle fibers gives you more strength and more mass then they are the same thing. I'm guessing that slow-twitch muscle fibers would help the tone of your muscle, but It makes sense that strength and mass are the same thing, but I'm probably wrong since I've read otherwise everywhere. Time to read those articles.

Thanks again

 

[ArduousMeister]

Originally posted by kal525
Ok, I think that's a good idea, I won't make as much gains though because I always to go the gym alone so I won't have a spotter.

I disagree ... I think that you will see better gains by using DBs compared to the smith. You will also notice not just size gains but strength as well due to the fact that u have to control the DBs in a full range of motion not just up and down. I may be wrong but that is just my personal opinion and experience.

 

[kal525]

ArduousMesiter, I wasn't talking about DBs, I was talking about barbell. I can't exactly throw that to one side without having a few plates crush me and the entire gym rush to my aid (now that I picture that it would be pretty funny to see).

I used to use DBs all the time for my chest, but I think that a barbell might work the upper chest more than DBs do. From my experience at least using DBs greatly increased the size of the sides of my chest, but it did not translate into gains on the bench for some reason. I always felt like I could handle more dumbell weight then barbell, which is kind of odd sine it's usually the opposite.

 

[Mudge]

Stay underneath the car close to the 'rack' on the bench. This way you are not going to hurt your shoulders or strain yourself when pulling off the bar for your set and when you re-rack it. I find that this is pretty important for me and also helps me stay heavy with the weight, and also makes it easier to put back the bar even if I only get it half way up for some reason there are multiple spots for me to put the bar back on the bench which is really helpfull without a spotter. Frankly though I know how many reps I can do and when I can only do 1/2 rep, so I do 1/2 rep. So over the last few months I have developed the ability partially be maintaining good form, to know when I can do another and when I can't.

 

[ArduousMeister]

Yeah I find the opposite as well, my gains that I get from DBs usually result in greater gains with BBs

 

[Mudge]

Originally posted by Mudge
Stay underneath the car close to the 'rack' on the bench.

Uhh, stay underneath the bar, if your benching a car you dont need my advice

 

[kal525]

haha, you never know, the car could be a mini. As for barbell vs dumbell benching, I think some of the difference might have to do with the fact that you bring your arms close together at the top of the set with DBs while you obviously can't do this with a barbell. I think a barbell might put more stress on your triceps and upper/middle chest vs the sides of your chest. That is probably why I find DB pressing easier, for the same reason that I find chest flyes easier, I feel they both make me sore in the same area(chest side) while the barbell bench press makes the middle to upper part of my chest slightly thicker but not the sides.

 

[Mudge]

A dumbell is kind of like a fly and press at the same time, I think this is why I feel more stimulus in the chest. Barbell is definately a compound movement, and I think dumbells are a bit less so.

 

[P-funk]

That is called a smith machine, my advice is STOP USING IT.

LOL, once again the damn smith machine ruins a good exercise.....I would not shed one tear if gyms thew that machine out. It is waste of time and absolutly useless....i have never found any logical use for performing and exercise on the smith machine.

 

[ArduousMeister]

Originally posted by P-funk
LOL, once again the damn smith machine ruins a good exercise.....I would not shed one teat if gyms thew that machine out. It is waste of time and absolutly useless....i have never found any logical use for performing and exercise on the smith machine.

You have many teats?

 

[buff_tat2d_chic]

Originally posted by kal525
Ok, I think that's a good idea, I won't make as much gains though because I always to go the gym alone so I won't have a spotter.

Grab someone there at the gym to spot you. We do it all the time at my gym. Most of the time people don't mind helping...but offer to help in return if needed.

 

[P-funk]

You have many teats?

lol, thanks, I edited it....shoud have said "tear".