Guns - Yes or No?

[Will Brink]

only hunting rifles, all other guns should be banned.

A rather ignorant comment. What guns are intended for is irrelevant, bit it hunting ot other. Cars are intended for driving to work, yet kill 40,000 per year. Pools and bikes-designed for biking and swimming respectively-kill more kids per year then guns. What guns are USED for is what???s relevant. There are negative and positive uses for guns.

A negative use of a gun is when a person commits a crime using a gun to commit it. That person is what is known as a criminal and all legal and or physical punishment should be applied to said person.

The positive use of a gun would be to prevent a crime or save a life, such as the 120lb women who shoots the 210 rapist, the 80 year old man who prevents the burglar from coming into his home and doing him harm, or the shop owner who protects his life work from looters after a storm, and so on

In that context, the ONLY relevant question is, what is the ratio of good to bad uses of guns? Between 700,000 (FBI???s data) and 2.5 million (Klecks data) times per year a gun is used in the in the US. in the positive sense Guns are used approximately 5 times more often to prevent a crime/save a life then they are to commit a crime.

So why not just remove all guns from the hands of citizens to reduce crime (which is not even possible nor constitutional but mentioned here for the sake of argument) which should lower crime? On a much larger historical picture, history has shown us over and over and over what happens to a population that is disarmed by it???s own government: they become subjects, slaves, or dead. Hitler knew that all too well when he said:

???History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." --- Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitlers Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-1942.


Thus, why the Second Amend exists and reveals a universal truth: the right to self defense - be it from criminals or a tyrannical government - is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT no government can grant or take away.

Guns are a necessary evil but necessary to a democracy and that fact was recognized by men far smarter then we are. For example;

"A FREE people ought...to be armed..." -George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 in Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790.

And:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws
make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides,
for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment - (1764).

And a more recent opinion:

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or laborer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --George Orwell


This is no less true today then it was then, perhaps even more relevant today then it was then some have argued.


Use your logical mind, do some research, leave what you think you know of the topic behind, and you will be shocked at what you find.

 

[BigDyl]

Rob just got owned by Will Brink.

 

[KelJu]

A rather ignorant comment. What guns are intended for is irrelevant, bit it hunting ot other. Cars are intended for driving to work, yet kill 40,000 per year. Pools and bikes-designed for biking and swimming respectively-kill more kids per year then guns. What guns are USED for is what???s relevant. There are negative and positive uses for guns.

A negative use of a gun is when a person commits a crime using a gun to commit it. That person is what is known as a criminal and all legal and or physical punishment should be applied to said person.

The positive use of a gun would be to prevent a crime or save a life, such as the 120lb women who shoots the 210 rapist, the 80 year old man who prevents the burglar from coming into his home and doing him harm, or the shop owner who protects his life work from looters after a storm, and so on

In that context, the ONLY relevant question is, what is the ratio of good to bad uses of guns? Between 700,000 (FBI???s data) and 2.5 million (Klecks data) times per year a gun is used in the in the US. in the positive sense Guns are used approximately 5 times more often to prevent a crime/save a life then they are to commit a crime.

So why not just remove all guns from the hands of citizens to reduce crime (which is not even possible nor constitutional but mentioned here for the sake of argument) which should lower crime? On a much larger historical picture, history has shown us over and over and over what happens to a population that is disarmed by it???s own government: they become subjects, slaves, or dead. Hitler knew that all too well when he said:

???History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." --- Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitlers Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-1942.


Thus, why the Second Amend exists and reveals a universal truth: the right to self defense - be it from criminals or a tyrannical government - is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT no government can grant or take away.

Guns are a necessary evil but necessary to a democracy and that fact was recognized by men far smarter then we are. For example;

"A FREE people ought...to be armed..." -George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 in Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790.

And:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws
make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides,
for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment - (1764).

And a more recent opinion:

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or laborer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --George Orwell


This is no less true today then it was then, perhaps even more relevant today then it was then some have argued.


Use your logical mind, do some research, leave what you think you know of the topic behind, and you will be shocked at what you find.

Holy Shit! I just printed that out.

 

[DOMS]

On a much larger historical picture, history has shown us over and over and over what happens to a population that is disarmed by it???s own government: they become subjects, slaves, or dead.

Look at the Brits. Practically every month, one right or another is infringed. There's one camera for every 5 people living in the UK. They were trying to pass (it may have already passed) a law that would force all cars to have GPS devices built into them so that they can be tracked at any time.

Oh, and nice post.

 

[NeilPearson]

This is a question for Americans (If you're Canadian, I'm going to assume you'd like to have guns...well...because you have a large population of French people living in your country who you'd undoubtedly like to see dead).

As a Canadian... I have never had the desire to have a gun. Why would you assume we would want them? I have never understood the American obsession with wanting to have a gun. It seems pretty pointless to me.

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-gun. I just don't care either way. I don't have a use for one.

 

[DOMS]

As a Canadian... I have never had the desire to have a gun. Why would you assume we would want them?

Sorry, I had also assumed that you had a sense of humor. My apologies.

 

[KelJu]

Oh, and nice post.

No kidding. I hope you pop into open chat more often Will. Yo usound like a smart and well educated person.

 

[americanwit]

I think all guns should be banned. I know I'm an idealist, and it's not that easy, but guns should be banned.

 

[ZECH]

I would like to see some of you that are for gun control, take the time and explain to us the reasons you are for it, much like Will did in his post against it. Not just "I think guns should be banned". Put some thought into and give some facts supporting your position.

 

[KelJu]

I would like to see some of you that are for gun control, take the time and explain to us the reasons you are for it, much like Will did in his post against it. Not just "I think guns should be banned". Put some thought into and give some facts supporting your position.

It can't be done, because it is a dumb opinion. If you think it out using real data, you will come to the logical conclusion to not restrict gun ownership in any way.

 

[KelJu]

I think all guns should be banned. I know I'm an idealist, and it's not that easy, but guns should be banned.

Thank you for your dumb non-thought out answer.

 

[DOMS]

 

[Noodles]

Look at the Brits. Practically every month, one right or another is infringed. There's one camera for every 5 people living in the UK. They were trying to pass (it may have already passed) a law that would force all cars to have GPS devices built into them so that they can be tracked at any time.

Oh, and nice post.

I live in England and I tend to agree with you that we have a lot of stupid laws, although I wouldn't say that I feel my rights are infringed by them. You seem to have a slightly exagerated view of what the laws are like in the UK; I can honestly say that I don't feel there is anything that I would want to do in my day to day life that I wouldn't be able to because of British law.

On the subject of guns, I totally agree that a ban in the US would not even be remotely feasable simply due to the amount of people that own guns there and the weird obsession you guys have with them (which I dont understand at all )... But you can't deny the simple fact that the violent crime/murder rates in America are MUCH higher than in the UK. The reason the gun ban works here is because it was rare for someone to own a gun before they were banned. I have never experienced, nor do I even know anyone who has experienced any type of gun crime, which is obviously a good thing (you can't argue with that); definetely something I would be willing to give up my 'right' to own a gun for.

And yeah I lolled at that GPS thing that was in the news aswell, it defiently is not going to be passed

 

[BoneCrusher]

I live in England and I tend to agree with you that we have a lot of stupid laws, although I wouldn't say that I feel my rights are infringed by them. You seem to have a slightly exagerated view of what the laws are like in the UK; I can honestly say that I don't feel there is anything that I would want to do in my day to day life that I wouldn't be able to because of British law.

On the subject of guns, I totally agree that a ban in the US would not even be remotely feasable simply due to the amount of people that own guns there and the weird obsession you guys have with them (which I dont understand at all )... But you can't deny the simple fact that the violent crime/murder rates in America are MUCH higher than in the UK. The reason the gun ban works here is because it was rare for someone to own a gun before they were banned. I have never experienced, nor do I even know anyone who has experienced any type of gun crime, which is obviously a good thing (you can't argue with that); definetely something I would be willing to give up my 'right' to own a gun for.

And yeah I lolled at that GPS thing that was in the news aswell, it defiently is not going to be passed

I always hear how things in the UK are so much safer than here in the US. I'm wondering if that's really true ...

 

[Noodles]

Well I don't know how safe you feel living in America, and I've never been there so I can't really comment... But I know I feel pretty fucking safe living here where the chances of someone pulling a gun on you are slim to none. Other than the obvious argument of 'I need it for protection yo' I really can't understand why you guys like hand guns so much... ffs its something that is designed specifically to kill/seriously injur someone.

 

[DOMS]

I live in England and I tend to agree with you that we have a lot of stupid laws, although I wouldn't say that I feel my rights are infringed by them. You seem to have a slightly exagerated view of what the laws are like in the UK; I can honestly say that I don't feel there is anything that I would want to do in my day to day life that I wouldn't be able to because of British law.

If my opinion is exaggerated, it's only because of all the crazy law I keep hearing about in the UK. Which make sense, because people outside the US (and in, for that matter) hear about crap like the PATRIOT act and envision 1984, but I've never met someone that's even claimed to have been affected by it.

On the subject of guns, I totally agree that a ban in the US would not even be remotely feasable simply due to the amount of people that own guns there

It's more than just prior ownership. You live on an island which makes is easy to protect against illegal imports. The US has several thousand miles of land that directly border other countries.

and the weird obsession you guys have with them (which I dont understand at all )...

Most people own them because they're fun. It's along the lines of archery. The truth is that a very small percentage of guns fired in the US are used on living things (human or otherwise). Most of the shooting in the country happens at shooting ranges. I've done it and it's very fun.

But you can't deny the simple fact that the violent crime/murder rates in America are MUCH higher than in the UK.

Part of that issue, the numbers, is the way that Europeans message them. For instance, in most of the EU (perhaps all), when a person commits murder, or attempts it, but they get a reduced sentence, it doesn't count towards the murder statistics. This is not how it works in the US. Here, even if the charge is pleaded down, it still goes on the books as a murder (or attempted murder).

Another thing to keep in mind is that, here in the US, we have a lot of Mexicans (at least 12 million, perhaps as much as 20 million) that raise the murder rate. The blacks (which we have more of), do the same. Try this, pick state (try Texas, they have more guns than any other state), and get the murder statistics for Caucasians only. Then compare that number to the UK (and then the average for EU). You'll be very surprised.

And yeah I lolled at that GPS thing that was in the news aswell, it defiently is not going to be passed

I hope not. That'd make Orwell spin in his grave.

 

[fufu]

I have lived in USA for 13 years and I have never seen someone in public carry, or pull a gun. Aside from police.

 

[DOMS]

I have lived in USA for 13 years and I have never seen someone in public carry, or pull a gun. Aside from police.

Me too. I grew up in L.A. and have never seen a gun pulled on another person, except by cops...and one time it was at me.

 

[Noodles]

Another thing to keep in mind is that, here in the US, we have a lot of Mexicans (at least 12 million, perhaps as much as 20 million) that raise the murder rate. The blacks (which we have more of), do the same. Try this, pick state (try Texas, they have more guns than any other state), and get the murder statistics for Caucasians only. Then compare that number to the UK (and then the average for EU). You'll be very surprised.

The rest of the stuff you said seems to be pretty fair but this is just stupid... I didn't say anything at all about white americans, I was talking about America as a place. Fair enough if 'your race' isn't the cause, your country still has laws that allows criminals and scum (or blacks and mexicans as you call them ) to pretty much freely buy fire arms and then you complain when these absolute cunts use them to commit crimes.

 

[DOMS]

The rest of the stuff you said seems to be pretty fair but this is just stupid... I didn't say anything at all about white americans, I was talking about America as a place. Fair enough if 'your race' isn't the cause, your country still has laws that allows criminals and scum (or blacks and mexicans as you call them ) to pretty much freely buy fire arms and then you complain when these absolute cunts use them to commit crimes.

Okay then, let's bring up the crazy bomb exploding fascination of the Brits. For quite a few years, you guys had a problem with killing each other with bombs. You killed off tens thousand of your own people. It happened from 1941-1945, I believe. Oh wait, you were being invaded, and it wasn't really you Brits, it was the Germans.

Well, we're being invaded too and they are doing horrible things to my country. Not the least of which is raising the incidents of murder.

 

[Noodles]

LOL thanks for the analogy, that makes your point much more valid

 

[DOMS]

LOL thanks for the analogy, that makes your point much more valid

Thanks.

There's a town (city?) in Tennessee (I think) that has a law that if you're over the age of 17 that you must carry a gun. Their level of violent crime is practically nil.

 

[MCx2]

I have lived in USA for 13 years and I have never seen someone in public carry, or pull a gun. Aside from police.

Eh, I live in rural Florida. Most of the pick up trucks have gun racks in the rear window. This mechanic that I used to go to carried a 6 shooter on a holster. Good ole boy named Rocky. Oh yeah, and the kid that works for me, his father is always strapped.

 

[DOMS]

Time for some humor:

AT THE DOCTOR'S OFFICE

A gorgeous young redhead goes into the doctor's office and said that her
body hurt wherever she touched it.

"Impossible!" says the doctor. "Show me."

The redhead took her finger, pushed on her left breast and screamed. Then she pushed her elbow and screamed even more. She
pushed her knee and screamed; likewise she pushed her ankle and
screamed. Everywhere she touched made her scream.

The doctor said, "You're not really a redhead, are you?

"Well, no" she said, "I'm actually a blonde."

"I thought so," the doctor said. "Your finger is broken"

 

[Noodles]

Blonde and a brunette fall off a cliff, who hits the ground first?



The brunette, the blonde has to stop to ask for directions.

 

[maniclion]

I just don't believe in taking things away from everybody because of a few rotten eggs, those rotten eggs probably didn't come by the gun they used legally anyway so whats the point of banning them. I can get a gun easier on the streets here in Hawaii than I can to walk into a gun store....and this is Hawaii with very few gun crimes....

 

[goob]

I have lived in USA for 13 years and I have never seen someone in public carry, or pull a gun. Aside from police.

Where did you come from before, if you've only been in the US for 13?

 

[fufu]

Where did you come from before, if you've only been in the US for 13?

Portugal/Columbia, then some scattered months in other places.

 

[ZECH]

Fair enough if 'your race' isn't the cause, your country still has laws that allows criminals and scum (or blacks and mexicans as you call them ) to pretty much freely buy fire arms and then you complain when these absolute cunts use them to commit crimes.

What you have to remember is this...............Who ever commits these types of crimes, they don't buy the guns legally. They buy them illegally-off the streets(blackmarket). That will always happen, even if you ban them. That is why it won't make sense to ban guns. You are only taking them from the ones who abide by our laws.

 

[KelJu]

What you have to remember is this...............Who ever commits these types of crimes, they don't buy the guns legally. They buy them illegally-off the streets(blackmarket). That will always happen, even if you ban them. That is why it won't make sense to ban guns. You are only taking them from the ones who abide by our laws.

I wish we could make all of the pro gun control people write that post on a chalk board until it is burn into their tiny little brains.