Failing to help fiancee make progress

[BlueCorsair]

Hey guys,

Kinda hard to admit this, but I'm rather failing to help my fiancee with her fat-loss goals. I've been with this website for years, and have used everything I have learned from you guys very well - even though I am an extreme ectomorph, hard work and the right diet has me fairly well built!

My fiancee is another story. She used to be on the heavy side, but has progressed to a bit below 'average' at best. She wants to be fit and lean, however, and she certainly isn't at that stage yet - I'd conservatively estimate that she can stand to drop at least another ten pounds, perhaps as many as 20.

Unfortunately, all I really know how to do is bodybuilding - how to train to build muscle, so my old techniques that worked when she was relatively out of shape are becoming less effective as she gets in better shape.

She goes to the gym five days per week (usually Monday through Friday) generally doing 15 to 20 minutes of free weights, followed by cardio; said cardio is occasionally HIIT, and sometimes it is a conventional 30-minute sweating on the elliptical or stationary bike.

Her diet is very good; perhaps not flawless, but her diet largely consists of appropriate-sized portions, mostly based around low-GI fruits and vegetables, lean protein in the shape of tuna/chicken/whey, and healthy fats from natty PB and olive oil. Carbs are mostly old-fashioned oats, and the occasional 100% whole grain slice of toast.

The issues is that she has slowed in progress to a crawl, and I'm worried that she'll get frustrated. As I feel I've described, she works out frequently and eats very well, but her gains are small, and she's still definitely carrying around more fat than she needs or wants; she's not looking to be a fitness model, but she certainly wants to be healthy and lean.

Any guidance would be appreciated, because I am out of ideas. My best guess is that her workouts could use a shake-up, so that's why I am posting on the training forum.

Is there any particular workout regimen you fellows would recommend? She won't tell me her weight (unsurprising) but my guess is that she's about 5'6 tall, and weighs in between 135-140 pounds.

I've suggested she take up jogging/running, but she absolutely hates it, and I don't want to push her into something that might cause her to give up altogether. I don't know if it's just a case of being patient with very small gains, or if some sort of addition or change is needed. Perhaps there's some exercises or sequences of exercises that I could suggest, but other than traditional body-building exercises (many of which don't seem to do much for her), I have no ideas.

Sorry for the rambling, and thanks for any suggestions.

 

[Built]

I'm in Vancouver too.

Where do you guys train?

 

[Built]

While I wait for your reply, I'll add that jogging will NOT get the weight off. I was a fat 10k runner for almost ten YEARS. I had to STOP jogging because I became so fat.

 

[BlueCorsair]

Double post, stupid browser.

 

[BlueCorsair]

I live out in Pitt Meadows at the moment, and train at the local (and well equipped) rec-center, though I lived in North Vancouver and trained there until I was 22 years old (I'm 26, now). My fiancee still lives and trains there.

I'm actually leaving the country for Scotland in a couple of weeks, and I've cut off my cable bill and everything already. I'll be in Scotland for a year while I work on my graduate degree in education, and I'm dragging the fiancee with me.

Part of the reason I'm posting this now is because my internet and the like will be poofing in a couple of weeks, and I wanted to see if I can start my fiancee on something useful before we leave, and that we can continue once we get to the UK.

I'm just hoping the Scots have some decent gyms, or I'll likely go nuts!

 

[Built]

Flat out I can tell you it's her diet. Furthermore, she's not lifting enough and she's doing WAAAAAY too much cardio. I need to know more about how heavy she lifts and her routine before I can suggest any changes, but she needs to stop training like a girl and start training like a man.

 

[BlueCorsair]

Flat out I can tell you it's her diet. Furthermore, she's not lifting enough and she's doing WAAAAAY too much cardio. I need to know more about how heavy she lifts and her routine before I can suggest any changes, but she needs to stop training like a girl and start training like a man.

Well, diet is probably the thing I feel best about, for her. She eats five meals per day, broken down fairly effectively. I don't know if you know of it, but she tends to like the meal suggestions she gets out of the FitnessRX magazine (Fitness Rx For Women)) - it seems fairly reputable, everything is academically referenced, from training tips to diet tips, and meals are broken down very clearly by caloric value, and it even breaks down macros well. A typical meal might consist of oats, some peanut butter, and whey at the simplest, or perhaps some salmon and wild rice for something more 'cooked'. Mixed in there is a good deal of veggies and low-GI fruits, or low-sodium V8 juice in its place.

Training is fairly basic, to my knowledge. She does everything from squats to tricep dips, decline-bench abdominal work to old-fashioned push-ups. I don't think there's a muscle group she really neglects at all, and she tends to vary what she does from day to day, if not week to week. To keep the heart rate up and challenge herself, she might do a couple of sets of push-ups with some leg-work sets like squats, in-between.

Workouts usually end with either a dozen or so minutes of HIIT, or 30 minutes of standard cardio.

I'm no professional, but to my relatively informed understanding, I can't see anything *glaringly* wrong with what she does.

 

[Built]

I really need to know exactly how much food she is eating. Total calories, grams of protein, carb and fat.

How heavy does she squat? Deadlift? Bench?

 

[Built]

PS check your PMs.

 

[BlueCorsair]

I really need to know exactly how much food she is eating. Total calories, grams of protein, carb and fat.

How heavy does she squat? Deadlift? Bench?

Total calories is going to be an issue; I have no idea. Meals are usually consistent for her, but vary enough that one day may differ substantially from another - in terms of what she eats, likely not in calories (she's quite good with portions).

She doesn't lift much weight, to be frank. She squats a regular 45-pound bar plus a ten pounder on each side at most; I'd say 75 pounds is probably the heaviest she does. Bench-press is usually a couple of free-weights, incline-bench, usually a couple of 20 or 25 pounders. Any other exercises she does are in the 20-pound range as well, or built off of body-resistance (like push-ups or tricep dips on a bench)

I suppose the conventional logic would be to try to encourage her to develop more strength by cutting back on the cardio and increasing the lifting, but I'm not sure what sort of weights are appropriate, nor what kind of routine; my own routine usually only takes 30 minutes at most. I, however, have been into lifting since I was 16, and was competitive in sports since I could walk; I'm conditioned to be athletic. She definitely doesn't have the natural genetics towards being lean and ripped that I do.

Arg.

EDIT - I did some rough calculations, and believe she's taking in somewhere around 1400 calories per day, with roughly a 30/30/40 (P/F/C) ratio.

 

[Built]

I got exactly NO where with light weights, cardio, and heart-rate/sweating. I got lean when I learned how to track what I ate and started lifting more like a powerlifter and less like I was in toning class.

Women and men training to cut should do the same thing: lift heavy, short, low-rep workouts, minimal cardio, careful diet to ensure caloric deficit. Tell her she will not be able to exercise off the weight. Don't try.

 

[BlueCorsair]

The interesting thing is that early on, she was predominantly doing just that - lifting challenging weights, relatively low reps, with cardio as an after-thought.

It eventually stopped working, which led me to reconstruct her fitness routines to include more cardio. Cardio is definitely a weak point at the moment, and I thought that trying to improve that would be sensible, given that anaerobic exercise doesn't quite work the same way.

 

[Built]

It's her diet. She needs to lift heavier and eat less food. I know the industry wants it to seem more complicated, but it really is just as simple as that.

It's like the kids that aren't making gains - we tell them to eat MORE, right? You can't gain unless you eat MORE than you need? Well, she's not going to lose unless she eats LESS than she needs.

 

[BlueCorsair]

It's her diet. She needs to lift heavier and eat less food. I know the industry wants it to seem more complicated, but it really is just as simple as that.

It's like the kids that aren't making gains - we tell them to eat MORE, right? You can't gain unless you eat MORE than you need? Well, she's not going to lose unless she eats LESS than she needs.

Aye, diet was starting to be a concern for me as well. She eats very cleanly, but I was under the impression that 1400 or so calories for a 24-year old woman who is quite active was quite reasonable. Her meals look... well, small. I don't call a slice of 100% whole-grain toast or oats with some peanut butter, a couple of arguably calorie-free veggies, and maybe a small protein protein shake to be much of a meal. An average meal might contain 20 or so grams of carbs, 8 to 10 grams of fat, and 12 to 24 grams of protein - not that much, really.

I realize a caloric deficit is key, but she certainly appears to be eating right. Then again, you'd almost certainly know better than I would about this! I trust what you're telling me, I think it's just a case of doing some math.

I think the real problem is that the 'hardcore' side of fitness is off-putting to her. Counting calories is, to the average person, a bit anal. I did it myself when I was trying to build muscle, but I can see why some people would just not be able to rationalize it.

 

[Built]

She does NOT have to count calories. Neither does she have to lift heavy or have to lose weight.

She is free to learn to love herself the way she is and be done with it.

If she wants to change her destiny, she's going to have to change her approach.

Her calories are insanely low. Either she has completely tanked her metabolism by dieting too low and doing too much high-rep/cardio work (this happens to a LOT of women), or she isn't measuring accurately enough. Or her thyroid is off.

Let's get to the bottom of it, okay? I weigh what she does and I'm her height - and I am cutting slowly on about 1800-1900 a day.

 

[Built]

PS from what you've said, her protein is too low, her fats are too low, and her carbs don't need to be anywhere NEAR that high. I'd be chewing my ARM off if I ate that way!

 

[BlueCorsair]

PS from what you've said, her protein is too low, her fats are too low, and her carbs don't need to be anywhere NEAR that high. I'd be chewing my ARM off if I ate that way!

I smell a proponent of low-carb dieting ahead .

I don't doubt her will to change; frankly I don't think she'd be thrashing herself five days per week in the gym just to please me.

I agree the protein is pretty low, but 100 or so grams of carbs per day? That really isn't that much, from most of what I know, but then again I'm male, and with different aims.

Any suggestions for a good macro breakdown or caloric intake?

I think the one key thing would be a better workout plan as well; you don't want to over-train any one body-part, so I am unsure how many of what exercise would be appropriate for what she's trying to accomplish. I mean, if you do a couple of sets of deadlifts, and a couple of sets of lunges, that's pretty much going to burn out the legs if you're using anything resembling heavy weight. I know that after a heavy leg-day, there's no way in hell I'd want to do them again any sooner than three or four days later; after all, muscle grows while we rest, not while we train. I personally only train a given muscle group *directly* once per week.

 

[Built]

It's all in my blog.

Women are insulin-resistant relative to men - and we are this way from before we are born. It gets more pronounced when we're over-fat, and in particular, when we go on oral contraceptives.

Protein is not only essential, but satiating. Likewise fat. Carbs are neither - so while cutting, it makes sense to focus on the foods that are essential, satiating and likely to promote positive nitrogen balance and compliance.

I'm not saying this is NECESSARY, but when calories are precious, focus on the heavy-hitters. This make sense?

I hardly eat any starch at all while cutting - other than fairly-frequent refeeds. And I do NOT use whey while cutting. I'd rather chew what little food I get to eat.

 

[BlueCorsair]

Totally solid advice, and similar to that which I was given by people around here, years ago, when I first came online looking for help with bodybuilding.

Nice to get in contact with someone who really knows their stuff, and is local to boot.

I think developing a good routine is likely going to be the most essential part of this; diet I can probably help hash out myself.

 

[Built]

Actually, the diet is the critical 80%. The training helps ensure the weight loss is mostly FAT loss - sadly, the training she is currently doing will not perform this function well. Too much volume, too much endurance work, no heavy lifting. She's overtraining. If she were losing weight on this, too much of that weight would come from muscle. The fact that she's not indicates a problem with her diet, her metabolism, or both.

She ever had a thyroid test, out of curiosity?

 

[BlueCorsair]

Actually, the diet is the critical 80%. The training helps ensure the weight loss is mostly FAT loss - sadly, the training she is currently doing will not perform this function well. Too much volume, too much endurance work, no heavy lifting. She's overtraining. If she were losing weight on this, too much of that weight would come from muscle. The fact that she's not indicates a problem with her diet, her metabolism, or both.

She ever had a thyroid test, out of curiosity?

Hmm... thyroid test, no. Probably not. She has a remarkable consitution, hardly ever gets sick, and almost never seriously, so she rarely visits an MD.

Diet could indeed be an issue, metabolism also. I'm inclined to believe, however, that it is the over-training from cardio that might be causing the issue. Frankly though, it could be anything - I'm not a professional, nor a woman, and I have never in my life had a problem with too much bodyfat (hurrah, the ectomorph), so I've never learned how to deal with it properly. The vast majority of my knowledge that I have gained through education and this website has been in regards to how to gain weight, specifically muscle, and specifically for someone who is genetically pre-disposed towards being built like a 12 year-old child . I'm going to be honest and just admit that I don't know how to deal with someone who is coming from the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

[NeilPearson]

Flat out I can tell you it's her diet. Furthermore, she's not lifting enough and she's doing WAAAAAY too much cardio. I need to know more about how heavy she lifts and her routine before I can suggest any changes, but she needs to stop training like a girl and start training like a man.

That was my first impression too.

Also, do you really know what her diet truely is? You don't see her 24/7 and she might be sneaking in some extras that she forgets to tell you.

Either way, it comes down to calories eaten vs burned. One of two things is likely happening:

1) What she eats isn't as good as you think which means you both need some education

or

2) You don't know everything she eats

 

[NeilPearson]

Thyroid problems are much rarer than diet problems (no matter what people tell you - everyone seems to have a thyroid problem)

 

[BlueCorsair]

That was my first impression too.

Also, do you really know what her diet truely is? You don't see her 24/7 and she might be sneaking in some extras that she forgets to tell you.

Either way, it comes down to calories eaten vs burned. One of two things is likely happening:

1) What she eats isn't as good as you think which means you both need some education

or

2) You don't know everything she eats

Thank you for your input!

I do know, more or less, what her diet is. I don't spend all my time with her, as despite being engaged, we live on opposite ends of the city; both of us being university students at different universities meant that each of us continuing to live at home with parents made a LOT more financial sense.

That said, I trust her implicitly; I've only caught a 'cheat' once, and I sincerely believe she'd never do it again - everyone makes mistakes.

I'm fairly educated about nutrition, too, though in a different way. I know all about the glycemic index, I know the virtues of Omega 3's and 6's, the benefits of protein, and a good general macro breakdown that keeps me healthy and active. That said, I'm not a nutritionist. All I know I learned from some courses I took at university, and from five years of reading this website - Jodi's articles were priceless, and really helped me.

You are probably right, however. Diet may be a problem. The issue *seems* to be potentially too few calories, or more accurately, too few of the right *kind* of calories. I'm hoping we can get some suggestions from Built and other people in that regard. It's rather hard to imagine that her VERY 'clean' diet might be an issue, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to be *completely* certain.

 

[Built]

Thyroid problems are much rarer than diet problems (no matter what people tell you - everyone seems to have a thyroid problem)

There's actually an epidemic of sub-clinical hypothyroid out there, particularly among women. Oral contraceptives are hugely to blame for this - but that's a whole 'nother topic. When I see a woman my height and weight and half my age who can't lose weight on 1400 calories when MY maintenance is 2200, I start looking for reasons.

Thank you for your input!

I do know, more or less, what her diet is. I don't spend all my time with her, as despite being engaged, we live on opposite ends of the city; both of us being university students at different universities meant that each of us continuing to live at home with parents made a LOT more financial sense.

That said, I trust her implicitly; I've only caught a 'cheat' once, and I sincerely believe she'd never do it again - everyone makes mistakes.

Actually, cheats and diet breaks are an extremely important component of successful dieting. Not only do these enhance compliance, but they stimulate metabolism. This will likely be the first thing I help her work her way through as she looks toward finding an effective long-term protocol.

I'm fairly educated about nutrition, too, though in a different way. I know all about the glycemic index,

Good. It really is meaningless, since we eat our meals mixed. Too many people think it's important when in fact it is not.

I know the virtues of Omega 3's and 6's, the benefits of protein, and a good general macro breakdown that keeps me healthy and active. That said, I'm not a nutritionist. All I know I learned from some courses I took at university, and from five years of reading this website - Jodi's articles were priceless, and really helped me.

You are probably right, however. Diet may be a problem. The issue *seems* to be potentially too few calories, or more accurately, too few of the right *kind* of calories. I'm hoping we can get some suggestions from Built and other people in that regard. It's rather hard to imagine that her VERY 'clean' diet might be an issue, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to be *completely* certain.

Calories being too LOW may indeed have tanked her metabolism. Ultimately, however, at a certain level, she WILL lose - but if calories become too low, there's no way to do this without inducing malnutrition.

 

[BlueCorsair]

Quick follow-up again;

I am aware of the virtue of weekly cheats and re-feeds; what I meant was that there was only one time when she had a... err... 'chocolate incident' when she said she hadn't. The fellow before you asked if I knew what she was eating, and I was trying to demonstrate that there's only been one time where she caved and went for something, and then denied having had it to me. I was trying to reference honesty (indicating she'd only 'hid' one thing ever from me) as opposed to denying the usefulness of the occasional cheat

I should also mention that I have seen a fair bit of use out of the glycemic index, especially many years ago when I first started watching what I ate carefully; if for no other reason than simply assisting with healthy food choices, the index proved pretty valuable.

 

[NeilPearson]

Quick follow-up again;

I am aware of the virtue of weekly cheats and re-feeds; what I meant was that there was only one time when she had a... err... 'chocolate incident' when she said she hadn't. The fellow before you asked if I knew what she was eating, and I was trying to demonstrate that there's only been one time where she caved and went for something, and then denied having had it to me. I was trying to reference honesty (indicating she'd only 'hid' one thing ever from me) as opposed to denying the usefulness of the occasional cheat

I should also mention that I have seen a fair bit of use out of the glycemic index, especially many years ago when I first started watching what I ate carefully; if for no other reason than simply assisting with healthy food choices, the index proved pretty valuable.

Personally, I think you only caught her once

If shes not losing weight, there may be more chocolate incidents than you know of. It's not a slam on her integrity. People simply aren't completely honest all the time. The world is filled with tons of little white lies every day. I am betting this is a bigger deal to you than it is to her and she views it as a simple little white lie... not a big deal to her.

I could be wrong, just my guess.

 

[Built]

Well, EITHER she's eating more than you both THINK she is, OR there's a metabolic problem (read: thyroid) that needs to be addressed. A week of careful pre-planning and pre-packing will answer a lot of questions.