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IT - Career Women

Jodi

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Why women quit technology careers
Why women quit technology careers
Kathleen Melymuka
June 16, 2008 (Computerworld) What if half the men in science, engineering and technology roles dropped out at midcareer? That would surely be perceived as a national crisis. Yet more than half the women in those fields leave -- most of them during their mid- to late 30s.
In this month's Harvard Business Review, Sylvia Ann Hewlett, Carolyn Buck Luce and Lisa J. Servon describe the Athena Factor, their research project examining the career trajectories of such women. Hewlett, founding president of the Center for Work-Life Policy in New York, told Kathleen Melymuka about what they learned.
Your research shows that there are more women on the lower rungs of science and technology fields than most people suspect. Women are actually excelling in science, engineering and technology, despite the fact that the schools are not very good at encouraging them. Many don't just survive the educational process but get some distance in terms of careers. The story is very encouraging in the early run. Between ages 25 and 30, 41% of the young talent with credentials in those subject matters are female. It's a more robust figure than many suspect. That's the good news.
What happens later? The bad news is that a short way down the road, 52% of this talent drops out. We are finding that attrition rates among women spike between 35 and 40 -- what we call the fight-or-flight moment. Women vote with their feet; they get out of these sectors. Not only are they leaving technology and science companies, many are leaving the field altogether.
How many women are we talking about? We reckon that maybe a million well-qualified women are dropping out in that age range. We reckon that if you could bring the attrition rate down by 25%, you would hang on to about a quarter of a million women with real experience and credentials in these fields -- fields that are suffering a labor shortage.
Based on the demographics, it seems likely that they leave to start families. Is that what happens? No. I'm not trying to pretend that work-life balance is not important, but we found four other more important factors about the culture and the nature of the career path. We call them "antigens," because they repel women.
The Good News
Several of the companies that were involved in the Athena Factor project are experimenting with programs to change the pattern of the female exodus from IT. Here are some of the more promising initiatives:
â???¢ Cisco Systems Inc. launched the Executive Talent Insertion Program for lateral recruiting of senior women and multicultural talent. As of mid-May, 15 new female vice presidents had been recruited, including Chief Technology Officer Padmasree Warrior.
â???¢ Intel Corp. has created a women's engineering forum. The goal is to showcase their research, relieve isolation, foster solidarity and mentoring, and support creativity.
â???¢ Johnson & Johnson has a program called Crossing the Finish Line, which provides high-potential women with career development resources and, more important, senior sponsors who are charged with looking out for them.
â???¢ General Electric Co. is initiating a program called Restart in its Bangalore global research center. The goal is to reach out to women who have left to rear young children and to facilitate their return when their children reach school age.
Tell me about those. The most important antigen is the machismo that continues to permeate these work environments. We found that 63% of women in science, engineering and technology have experienced sexual harassment. That's a really high figure.
They talk about demeaning and condescending attitudes, lots of off-color jokes, sexual innuendo, arrogance; colleagues, particularly in the tech culture, who genuinely think women don't have what it takes -- who see them as genetically inferior. It's hard to take as a steady stream. It's predatory and demeaning. It's distressing to find this kind of data in 2008.
Is this data global or national? We studied private-sector employers in the U.S., and then we looked at three large, global companies with women working across the world. We also did a bunch of focus groups in Australia, Shanghai and Moscow. The data were pretty consistent. Actually, India is a little better than the U.S. But there's not much variation across geography.
What are the other antigens? The second one was the sheer isolation many women cope with daily. She might be the only woman on the team or the only senior woman at a facility. Isolation in and of itself is debilitating, with no mentors, no role models, no buddies. And if you're surrounded by men who don't appreciate you, that can be corrosive.
The third thing is that, for many women, the career path is all very mysterious because they don't have mentors or sponsors or folks looking out for them. Some of them can't begin to map what the career ladder looks like. This mystery adds to the sense of stalling, of being stuck and not knowing where to go or how to get there.
The fourth thing is the risky behavior patterns that are rewarded. We found, particularly in the tech firms, that the way to get promoted is to do a diving catch: Some system is crashing in Bulgaria, so you get on the plane in the middle of the night and dash off and spend the weekend wrestling with routers and come back a hero, and there's a ticker-tape parade, and you get two promotions -- you can actually leap a whole grade if you rescue a big enough system.
But what does that have to do with gender? Women have a hard time taking on those assignments because you can dive and fail to catch. If a man fails, his buddies dust him off and say, "It's not your fault; try again next time." A women fails and is never seen again. A woman cannot survive a failure. So they become risk-averse in a culture where risk is rewarded. Women would rather build a system that didn't crash in the first place, but men enjoy that diving catch and have a system of support that allows them to go out on a limb.
So finally we come to work-life? The fifth one is a combination of extremely long hours -- in tech, the average workweek is 71 hours -- emergencies and a very family-unfriendly atmosphere. And at 35 to 40, women are often having the second kid, a time when even the most organized woman finds herself caught short by the demands of her life.
Is this whole scenario worse in technology and science than in other types of jobs? We did work in other fields in our '95 study. It was a slightly different pool, but we found that women across industries will often take a brief break -- like for two years. But our sense is that this is distinctly worse. In many fields, almost 100% of women will try to get back into the industry [later]. Here, only 60% say they would be willing to give it another try if conditions were right.
So 40% leave the industry entirely. Right. They've been too badly burned. It's particularly serious for the women who have invested decades getting a Ph.D. in a much-loved field -- and for society.
What practical steps should CIOs take to keep women from leaving? It's the most standard solution in the world: You've just got to get mentors to pair with the young talent.
It is a total savior, because it prevents the isolation setting in, allows them to start mapping their career paths and insulates them from some of the worst repercussions of the macho behaviors. If you have only a few senior women, use some of your men.
And use technology. Cisco is using telepresence technology to do virtual mentoring sessions across the world -- linking young women in India with senior women in San Jose.
 
Could starting a family have an impact on those numbers?
 
Nope! Read the article :p
 
who cares?
 
Ah....I do. Why do you post threads? Because its a subject that interests you and would like to discuss it........ What kind of question was that?
 
Ah....I do. Why do you post threads? Because its a subject that interests you and would like to discuss it........ What kind of question was that?

point taken. i dont see this as a problem one bit. we don't have a problem of getting women into the field as shown by the 41% statistic. Once you're in it is what you do with it. after 10 years if a woman (or man) decides to move on to something that they consider a better opportunity then great. the 50% of women who decide to leave all have many individual reasons for leaving and we shouldn't worry about it. Companies that are feeling a pinch will recognize that they need to keep the individuals that they want and they will adapt to making it happen. it is a normal cycle. I find this to be a non-story
 
I think one of the major points of this article is to show that a woman in a tech/engineering field find it difficult because of the male population.....

The most important antigen is the machismo that continues to permeate these work environments. We found that 63% of women in science, engineering and technology have experienced sexual harassment. That's a really high figure.
They talk about demeaning and condescending attitudes, lots of off-color jokes, sexual innuendo, arrogance; colleagues, particularly in the tech culture, who genuinely think women don't have what it takes -- who see them as genetically inferior. It's hard to take as a steady stream. It's predatory and demeaning. It's distressing to find this kind of data in 2008.

In bold has been my general experience. One of the questions for me is why? What is it about this field? Woman have the knowledge, and in many cases more than than their male colleagues, so why do men feel the need to do this?
 
Maybe not genetically inferior just mentally incapable. :toilet:
 
IMO you do have a small valid point, but I think the mentally incapable may stem from the work environment to begin with.

IE: A female enters the engineering field, a male dominant field. She has the education, experience etc... but everyday she is made to feel inferior in one shape or another. It takes a toll on you. Many of nights I'd go home and cry wondering why I'm pushing myself so hard but the next day I'd wake up and keep pushing. I think it would take its toll for a man too. Nobody wants to feel everyday that others think they can't accomplish their goals. Then there is the sexual stuff. Fortunately most of it doesn't bother me but there have been a few times I'd really want to turn around and punch the guy in the face.

Another aspect is the very long work hours and the traveling. For a career mother its too much so I can see how that can effect them mentally as well. I don't have children.
 
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So me saying nice ass wouldn't be appropriate right now :p
 
IMO you do have a small valid point, but I think the mentally incapable may stem from the work environment to begin with.

IE: A female enters the engineering field, a male dominant field. She has the education, experience etc... but everyday she is made to feel inferior in one shape or another. It takes a toll on you. Many of nights I'd go home and cry wondering why I'm pushing myself so hard but the next day I'd wake up and keep pushing. I think it would take its toll for a man too. Nobody wants to feel everyday that others think they can't accomplish their goals. Then there is the sexual stuff. Fortunately most of it doesn't bother me but there have been a few times I'd really want to turn around and punch the guy in the face.

Another aspect is the very long work hours and the traveling. For a career mother its too much so I can see how that can effect them mentally as well. I don't have children.

personally i think many women need to have thicker skin. women come in and want to be treated equal and then get pissed off when they do. Guess what? men demean each other. that is how we interact. you come in and want to be "one of the guys" well, one of the guys means you have to stand up for yourself and dish it out as much as you get. when it comes down to getting a job done i dont give a damn what your skin color or sex is. if you can help me finish the job, and mesh with the team dynamic your in. if you cant pull your weight, or don't mesh personality wise I don't want you anywhere near my team. a man should not be sexually aggressive towards a woman, either physically or verbally. Having said that off color jokes and remarks and the ability to take and dish is part of the "boys club" and there is nothing wrong with that
 
personally i think many women need to have thicker skin. women come in and want to be treated equal and then get pissed off when they do. Guess what? men demean each other. that is how we interact. you come in and want to be "one of the guys" well, one of the guys means you have to stand up for yourself and dish it out as much as you get. when it comes down to getting a job done i dont give a damn what your skin color or sex is. if you can help me finish the job, and mesh with the team dynamic your in. if you cant pull your weight, or don't mesh personality wise I don't want you anywhere near my team. a man should not be sexually aggressive towards a woman, either physically or verbally. Having said that off color jokes and remarks and the ability to take and dish is part of the "boys club" and there is nothing wrong with that

Agreed! We certainly have a way of interacting with off the cuff rude dialog that most of us find appealing. Hell, we're men and we like to fuck around with each other. It's a daily right of passage as far as I'm concerned and those who don't, won't or can't partake...screw'em.
 
I have worked for several women in the enginnering field and 1 that was a town manager that was over the PD chief. I currently work for one who is the best supervisor period I have ever worked for. She is as good as gold to me and she knows her stuff. The previous one in engineering I worked for in the mid 90's was a complete idiot. Had no common sense but yet wanted you to know she was boss and knew everything. Did not like her at all. She finally got shipped off! The one that was a town manager, was only several years out of college. She was fine as a friend and I got along with her fine, as I did not work directly under her. But she gave the chief hell and she also wanted to show who was boss, even though she had no right to make day to day decisions in the PD. I guess it really all comes down to how comfortable they are in their positions and how they use their power. Some can handle it and others can't.
 
In my world (engineering, major, corporate) similar to Jodi's but different...

Women are reeeeaally given much more of a pass to become
competent and/or up to speed...

If a young man enters the workplace and doesn't shine and take off like
a rocket, they bench him with a meaningless go-nowhere project...

Women are often chosen for high-visibility projects/programs strictly
due to their gender... (IE = IMO, some dont have to work it as hard)

Out of the gals I've worked with, about 50% know their stuff and
kick-butt... Which is on an even par with men..
(I work with some guys that are total freakin' idiots who cant tie their shoes)


I put more blame on the US corporate management trends,
or the trends toward globalization...

These are the things that promote the bland quiet employee who isn't
smart or efficient, but has a good work record and meets the corporate
requirements... Or the kiss-ass, who does absolutely nothing, yet still has a job somehow.

The company I work in, loves to promote slackers who are actually difficult or troublesome to work with.


Keep on truckin Jodi - :thumb:
 
Weird. I did my first degree in math (statistics) and I never noticed I was treated any differently than the men in my field. I wasn't in shape back then, didn't worry about what I looked like. Maybe it's different if you look more feminine? Dunno. I had no problems at all, and I was often the only woman in my class.

There were a couple of other women in my programme when I did my graduate work in OpLog, but still, I never noticed any difference in how I was treated. I don't notice any problems in my current job as an analyst either.

I wonder if this varies a great deal regionally?
 
It just depends. There are some amazing female IT people out there, and then there are the plain mediocre semi-know something ones.

I've worked with neither. Please send more women to my IT department. Thanks.
 
Weird. I did my first degree in math (statistics) and I never noticed I was treated any differently than the men in my field. I wasn't in shape back then, didn't worry about what I looked like. Maybe it's different if you look more feminine? Dunno. I had no problems at all, and I was often the only woman in my class.

There were a couple of other women in my programme when I did my graduate work in OpLog, but still, I never noticed any difference in how I was treated. I don't notice any problems in my current job as an analyst either.

I wonder if this varies a great deal regionally?
Seeing as you weren't sexually appealing at the time, and that you have a masculine brain trapped in your female head, we must logically deduce the advanced primates in your vicinity did not actually register you as a potential mate, inhibiting the initiation of bizarre mating rituals and macho defence mechanisms. Hence you not experiencing a negative vibe around your co-workers.

:shrug:
 
Tell me about those. The most important antigen is the machismo that continues to permeate these work environments. We found that 63% of women in science, engineering and technology have experienced sexual harassment. That's a really high figure.
They talk about demeaning and condescending attitudes, lots of off-color jokes, sexual innuendo, arrogance; colleagues, particularly in the tech culture, who genuinely think women don't have what it takes -- who see them as genetically inferior.

OBVIOUSLY it's because men in these fields are nerds with small penises.
 
I have worked for several women in the enginnering field and 1 that was a town manager that was over the PD chief. I currently work for one who is the best supervisor period I have ever worked for. She is as good as gold to me and she knows her stuff. The previous one in engineering I worked for in the mid 90's was a complete idiot. Had no common sense but yet wanted you to know she was boss and knew everything. Did not like her at all. She finally got shipped off! The one that was a town manager, was only several years out of college. She was fine as a friend and I got along with her fine, as I did not work directly under her. But she gave the chief hell and she also wanted to show who was boss, even though she had no right to make day to day decisions in the PD. I guess it really all comes down to how comfortable they are in their positions and how they use their power. Some can handle it and others can't.

In my experience, working FOR a woman is great, they let you do your work and leave you alone. Working WITH a woman is a completely different story, imo.
 
Working in the field for almost 18 years I've experienced the good and the bad. Being a tech in the IT was much harder than being in management and did deal with a lot of the sexual innuendo's, advancements, jokes, made to feel incompetent etc.. None ever bothered me enough to report and thats usually because stuff like that doesn't bother me. However, I can see why it would bother the average female. Since being an IT Manager I don't hear it anymore for obvious reasons. I ask of my employees and I let them go off and do it. It's their job to show me they can do it and I let them be unless they come back with less than average results. The hardest part of being in management, at first, was dealing with men that don't like working for a woman and feel that I am incompetent. I did not get into management the easy way. I worked my ass off for it! Like the article says, I took those dives, worked many hours and always arose to challenges even when I wasn't sure if I could handle it but I did.

So basically in the past 4 years or so I have not experienced most of these points in the article but in my past as a tech and then as an engineer I did and I can see why many woman quit the field altogether. Its not an easy field to be in for a woman. I wholeheartedly believe that women need to step up to the plate and put themselves in charge of their own career and yes many can't do that but many men can't do that either. It's just unfortunate because there are many smart women out there that can do this job but are made to feel inept by their male co-workers.
 
In my experience, working FOR a woman is great, they let you do your work and leave you alone. Working WITH a woman is a completely different story, imo.

I agree 100%. I have worked for women, and it always kicked ass. I have worked with women, and it was always a pain in the ass. There is something about when a woman is secure and confident that she outranks you, her attitude changes for the better. \
 
I wholeheartedly believe that women need to step up to the plate and put themselves in charge of their own career and yes many can't do that but many men can't do that either.

It's just unfortunate because there are many smart women out there that can do this job but are made to feel inept by their male co-workers.

You're right there are both men and women not able to step up to the plate. sex has no bearing then.

if a smart women lets herself get pushed out because she allowed herself to feel inept from her coworkers she doesn't belong. Same thing if a smart man allows himself to be pushed out. sex has no bearing on success.

I feel many times both sex and race are used as an excuse when it is not the root issue. the mental make up of the individual is. lets save true instances of racism or sexism for when it is really happening. otherwise it just gets diluted and people stop noticing.
 
When you are the minority in this field and for years and years and years your male co-workers make you feel incompetent it wears on you and it makes fighting for your career 10 times harder and you have to be strong. It shouldn't be like that though. You don't find that nearly as much on the opposite end .
 
When you are the minority in this field and for years and years and years your male co-workers make you feel incompetent it wears on you and it makes fighting for your career 10 times harder and you have to be strong. It shouldn't be like that though. You don't find that nearly as much on the opposite end .

I think women are just more sensitive to it. Men treat each other the same way.
 
Weird. I did my first degree in math (statistics) and I never noticed I was treated any differently than the men in my field. I wasn't in shape back then, didn't worry about what I looked like. Maybe it's different if you look more feminine? Dunno. I had no problems at all, and I was often the only woman in my class.

There were a couple of other women in my programme when I did my graduate work in OpLog, but still, I never noticed any difference in how I was treated. I don't notice any problems in my current job as an analyst either.

I wonder if this varies a great deal regionally?

Seeing as you weren't sexually appealing at the time, and that you have a masculine brain trapped in your female head, we must logically deduce the advanced primates in your vicinity did not actually register you as a potential mate, inhibiting the initiation of bizarre mating rituals and macho defence mechanisms. Hence you not experiencing a negative vibe around your co-workers.

:shrug:
Oooh, I got hit on. I daresay I was, in fact, sexually appealing. I just wasn't buff, or particularly concerned with my appearance. I got my share of male attention. I was pretty, and I had big boobs.
When you are the minority in this field and for years and years and years your male co-workers make you feel incompetent it wears on you and it makes fighting for your career 10 times harder and you have to be strong. It shouldn't be like that though. You don't find that nearly as much on the opposite end .

I think women are just more sensitive to it. Men treat each other the same way.
Bingo. Men are assholes to each other. Women are too, but it's generally more subdued, "behind the back" crap. Men are more in your face about it, but they expect it from each other so it's no biggie. Women who don't know this think it's about them, when really, it's just the way men interact. In "male dominated" areas, men probably don't have to interact a great deal professionally with women so they don't change their approach.

Hence the problem.
 
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