Squatting deep. How to prove it's not bad for your knees

[Rookeek]

Hi guys,

I've gotten myself into the discussion that squatting below parallel is bad. I don't think so and I squat deep. But most of the people don't and tell me I'm wrong. Is there any clinical studies or anything worth trust that states that it is better to squat deep than not below parallel.

I use argument that a full movement is healthier for your knee and not partial one. But this is not enough for some...

Cheers

 

[Marat]

Squatting deep allows you to recruit your glutes and hamstrings at the bottom of the movement. This allows you to balance out the forward pulling motion of your quadriceps. This balance of motion is necessary to maintain knee health. Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" book goes into in depth detail about this.

Ignore what the others are saying. To squat properly is to squat deep.

 

[plums_jp]

Amen !!

 

[Rookeek]

Squatting deep allows you to recruit your glutes and hamstrings at the bottom of the movement. This allows you to balance out the forward pulling motion of your quadriceps. This balance of motion is necessary to maintain knee health. Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" book goes into in depth detail about this.

Ignore what the others are saying. To squat properly is to squat deep.

Well, I try to but still it gets to me a bit.. I try to show my friends that they are hurting their knees but no one believes me so that sucks too...

I went to search this topic on T-Nation and I found some proof too so now I'm a bit better at this topic

Thanx

 

[Built]

"A child does not learn to squat from the top down -- in other words, he does not one suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and makes the conscious decision to stand."

- Gray Cook


"More squat myths?!?
We’ve all heard it, if you dip below parallel during a squat, your kneecap will blow off and land in the front desk girl’s mocha latte. Well it just ain’t true! What’s that, you need a little more evidence? Ok boys and girls, its time for today’s episode of Fun With Musculoskeletal Anatomy.
The knee has four main protective ligaments that keep the femur from displacing on the tibia (ACL, PCL, MCL, LCL). These four ligaments are most effective at their protection during full extension and full flexion. Full extension would be when you are standing; full flexion would be when there is no daylight between your hamstring and your calf. When the knee is at 90 degrees of flexion (the halfway point), these four ligaments are almost completely lax and cannot exert much if any of a protective force at the knee (Zatsiorsky V. Kinematics of human motion. 1998 - published by Human Kinetics - p.301).
Unfortunately, the position where the protective ligaments of the knee are not doing any protecting is the common recommended stopping point of a squat. Therefore, as it as it turns out, this is the exact worst place you could reverse the motion under load.
If flexibility allows (heels staying planted, torso not flexing forward past 45 degrees), then a full squat where you lower yourself all the way to the ground is far safer on the knees than the traditional half squat. Guess what joint angle most leg extension machines start at? If you said 90 degrees, give yourself a pat on your healthy knee. This makes a full squat even safer than a leg extension machine (Wilk K et al. A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med; 24(4):518-527).
So am I telling you never to do parallel squats? No! Am I saying that you’ll injure yourself on a parallel squat? No, again! What I’m trying to do is simply make an argument for the safety of full squats, thereby relegating squat myth #2 to the fiery pits of hades."
- Marc McDougal

 

[vader]

when their knees start giving them problems and yours do not then and only then will they believe you. It also helps to be able to squat 3 times as much as they do and still go deep.

 

[Rookeek]

"A child does not learn to squat from the top down -- in other words, he does not one suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and makes the conscious decision to stand."

- Gray Cook


"More squat myths?!?
We???ve all heard it, if you dip below parallel during a squat, your kneecap will blow off and land in the front desk girl???s mocha latte. Well it just ain???t true! What???s that, you need a little more evidence? Ok boys and girls, its time for today???s episode of Fun With Musculoskeletal Anatomy.
The knee has four main protective ligaments that keep the femur from displacing on the tibia (ACL, PCL, MCL, LCL). These four ligaments are most effective at their protection during full extension and full flexion. Full extension would be when you are standing; full flexion would be when there is no daylight between your hamstring and your calf. When the knee is at 90 degrees of flexion (the halfway point), these four ligaments are almost completely lax and cannot exert much if any of a protective force at the knee (Zatsiorsky V. Kinematics of human motion. 1998 - published by Human Kinetics - p.301).
Unfortunately, the position where the protective ligaments of the knee are not doing any protecting is the common recommended stopping point of a squat. Therefore, as it as it turns out, this is the exact worst place you could reverse the motion under load.
If flexibility allows (heels staying planted, torso not flexing forward past 45 degrees), then a full squat where you lower yourself all the way to the ground is far safer on the knees than the traditional half squat. Guess what joint angle most leg extension machines start at? If you said 90 degrees, give yourself a pat on your healthy knee. This makes a full squat even safer than a leg extension machine (Wilk K et al. A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med; 24(4):518-527).
So am I telling you never to do parallel squats? No! Am I saying that you???ll injure yourself on a parallel squat? No, again! What I???m trying to do is simply make an argument for the safety of full squats, thereby relegating squat myth #2 to the fiery pits of hades."
- Marc McDougal

I LOVE YOU

Thanx

 

[Built]

<blows kisses>

 

[Arnold]

I think the lower back should be more of a concern when squatting really deep, once you get that low its easy to round your back and/or lean forward for balance.

 

[P-funk]

If I can get my shit together this weekend, I'll be starting a long feature piece for my blog, reviewing some research on this very thing. I'll let you know when I post it up.

Patrick

 

[Rookeek]

If I can get my shit together this weekend, I'll be starting a long feature piece for my blog, reviewing some research on this very thing. I'll let you know when I post it up.

Patrick

Looking forward to it...

 

[Rookeek]

I think the lower back should be more of a concern when squatting really deep, once you get that low its easy to round your back and/or lean forward for balance.

True.

But I think doing some mobility exercises will help in this situation.

 

[KelJu]

I know I am going to catch shit for this, but my knees have bit the dust, and I always squatted as deep as possible with the best form I could.

My only guess as to why is that I lifted too heavy. My advice is to not lift in the lower rep ranges too much, everything else is pretty much summed up by the other posters.

 

[Rookeek]

I know I am going to catch shit for this, but my knees have bit the dust, and I always squatted as deep as possible with the best form I could.

My only guess as to why is that I lifted too heavy. My advice is to not lift in the lower rep ranges too much, everything else is pretty much summed up by the other posters.

110 percent sure you did it with right technique?

 

[KelJu]

110 percent sure you did it with right technique?

Not a single doubt.

 

[MeatheadSam]

I try to squat deep, not always ATG but close. I tend to bend forward when I approach failure so once my form is compromised I stop.

 

[Rookeek]

I try to squat deep, not always ATG but close. I tend to bend forward when I approach failure so once my form is compromised I stop.

It was for me like that too, but standing a bit wider helped me

 

[P-funk]

just finished my long article last night about squatting deep.

I'll keep you posted when I publish it. Probably the end of the week.

patrick

 

[Rookeek]

just finished my long article last night about squatting deep.

I'll keep you posted when I publish it. Probably the end of the week.

patrick

Drop a link here

 

[Hench]

I think the lower back should be more of a concern when squatting really deep, once you get that low its easy to round your back and/or lean forward for balance.

Problem in having atm, had to drop the weight by about 30kg until I can get the correct movement going. I was almost doing some sort of mini good morning shit mid-squat for a while there, not very nice on my lower back.

Really looking forward to your article Patrick.

 

[sexy_animal]

I try to squat deep, not always ATG but close. I tend to bend forward when I approach failure so once my form is compromised I stop.

That's actually exactly what I'm doing. I too have my weight shift toward the balls of my feet. I'm overly protective of my knees so I stop as soon as I feel that I'm doing the exercise with less then perfect form.

 

[Hench]

That's actually exactly what I'm doing. I too have my weight shift toward the balls of my feet. I'm overly protective of my knees so I stop as soon as I feel that I'm doing the exercise with less then perfect form.

Personally I like its down to a lack of core strength. Core work is something I have only recently included in my training (after buying P-funks e-book). Ill just wait and see how it improves over the next couple of months.

 

[P-funk]

Personally I like its down to a lack of core strength. Core work is something I have only recently included in my training (after buying P-funks e-book). Ill just wait and see how it improves over the next couple of months.

Thanks for checking out the book!

patrick

 

[Merkaba]

Great post Built!

 

[AKIRA]

I think the lower back should be more of a concern when squatting really deep, once you get that low its easy to round your back and/or lean forward for balance.

If I go all the way to the ground, and I mean, ass touching heels, my pelvis tucks under. Throughout my rehab process from my disk problem using only my BW, I tried to correct this, but I cant consciously move anything. It is as if my pelvis is built that way and thats that.

 

[Hoglander]

If I go all the way to the ground, and I mean, ass touching heels, my pelvis tucks under. Throughout my rehab process from my disk problem using only my BW, I tried to correct this, but I cant consciously move anything. It is as if my pelvis is built that way and thats that.

Same here. What works for me is doing front box squats. The box is 8in off the floor. At the extended pause at the bottom I get a chance to focus on how I'm positioned. That plus front squats keeps my back good throughout. I do back squats with more than twice the weight just past parallel. I get more out the deep front squats, IMHO. I still like to do both.

 

[P-funk]

If I go all the way to the ground, and I mean, ass touching heels, my pelvis tucks under. Throughout my rehab process from my disk problem using only my BW, I tried to correct this, but I cant consciously move anything. It is as if my pelvis is built that way and thats that.

you have to learn to activate the psoas and pull yourself down in order to get hip flexion and not lumbar flexion.

patrick

 

[P-funk]

Here we go - Don't Let the Knees Pass The Toes & Other Squatting Myths — Patrick Ward, MS CSCS LMT

Patrick

 

[Built]

Bookmarked!

 

[Andy_Massaro]

Here we go - Don't Let the Knees Pass The Toes & Other Squatting Myths ??? Patrick Ward, MS CSCS LMT

Patrick

Excellent article, I cannot wait to defend my squat technique with the information that I learned from this! Thanks!