Bradicallyman
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I guess I need to read up a bit. I was always under the impression that low carb and keto were basically the same.
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Broser vs Palumbo - battle of the keto diet
- Thread starter Arnold
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what do you want to know?
Yes, that is probably about right on the money.
My training was as it always is...medium to lower volume...high intensity. Cardio would vary from medium/high to medium/low intensity, but overall I do not do nearly the amounts that most competitors engage in.
I tried refeeds twice per week on one diet, once per week on another and never on another.
I can see how you would have had trouble and possibly lost muscle doing what you did.
On very low carb diets, training is very, very low volume.
For example, on Lyle's Rapid fat loss AKA PSMF - which for me is roughly what your "low" macros are - protein at about 2g per pound lean mass (1.5g per pound bodyweight-ish!) fat very low - under 50g for me is LOW - carbs only from green fibrous veggies. Calories for me on this at about 1100 - 1400. I am a category I dieter (leanest category)
Diet is low for 12 days, then a 2-day low fat, modest protein, high-carb refeed.
This is how I train while doing this (not counting modest, very low-volume dynamic warmup):
Every three days:
Workout 1
3x5 squats
3x5 T-bars
3x5 bench
OR
Workout 2
3x5 hang clean and press
3x5 RDL
3x5 weighted chins
It's only 12 days so I treat this as a rest break while I drop fat. It's almost like a deload.
The only cardio I do on this is, at most, an hour of walking throughout the day, and that's optional and recreational, not dedicated and certainly not on a treadmill.
A 2x8-12 full-body tension workout preceeds the carbup.
At category 1, unless you're assisted you don't do another cycle of PSMF.
(Category 2 and 3, the "juicier" categories, have their own rules. Please see the book for more)
When I've done keto at maintenance, protein is lower and fat is a LOT higher. Just over a gram of protein per pound LBM, and close to a gram of fat per pound LBM.
I find my training volume can go up somewhat, but of course, no pumps.
On TKD, where I take in pre and or post workout carbs, training volume is "normal" at maintenance, and of course cut back a bit on a cut. On lower calories, maybe it's different on a higher carb paradigm but on a lower-carb plan, training volume drops as the cut progresses. Cardio duration drops, but cardio intensity increases.
That's how I do it anyway.
You appear to have done something close to a PSMF with refeeds, but on a lot higher volume.
I agree, this would have sucked eggs.
Thanks for sharing that Eric. I can see why you hate this for cutting. I would too.
On very low carb diets, training is very, very low volume.
For example, on Lyle's Rapid fat loss AKA PSMF - which for me is roughly what your "low" macros are - protein at about 2g per pound lean mass (1.5g per pound bodyweight-ish!) fat very low - under 50g for me is LOW - carbs only from green fibrous veggies. Calories for me on this at about 1100 - 1400. I am a category I dieter (leanest category)
Diet is low for 12 days, then a 2-day low fat, modest protein, high-carb refeed.
This is how I train while doing this (not counting modest, very low-volume dynamic warmup):
Every three days:
Workout 1
3x5 squats
3x5 T-bars
3x5 bench
OR
Workout 2
3x5 hang clean and press
3x5 RDL
3x5 weighted chins
It's only 12 days so I treat this as a rest break while I drop fat. It's almost like a deload.
The only cardio I do on this is, at most, an hour of walking throughout the day, and that's optional and recreational, not dedicated and certainly not on a treadmill.
A 2x8-12 full-body tension workout preceeds the carbup.
At category 1, unless you're assisted you don't do another cycle of PSMF.
(Category 2 and 3, the "juicier" categories, have their own rules. Please see the book for more)
When I've done keto at maintenance, protein is lower and fat is a LOT higher. Just over a gram of protein per pound LBM, and close to a gram of fat per pound LBM.
I find my training volume can go up somewhat, but of course, no pumps.
On TKD, where I take in pre and or post workout carbs, training volume is "normal" at maintenance, and of course cut back a bit on a cut. On lower calories, maybe it's different on a higher carb paradigm but on a lower-carb plan, training volume drops as the cut progresses. Cardio duration drops, but cardio intensity increases.
That's how I do it anyway.
You appear to have done something close to a PSMF with refeeds, but on a lot higher volume.
I agree, this would have sucked eggs.
Thanks for sharing that Eric. I can see why you hate this for cutting. I would too.
Well, all I need to do is add in some well-timed carbs and BOOM the whole story changes (calories the same)!
And I know you will disagree and question this, but there is not a single bodybuilder on this planet that would prepare for competition using the type of program you mention...and with the exception of the high end of genetic superiors, they could not achieve a stage ready physique on such a program.
Also, I do not look at you as anywhere near typical and think YOUR results would not apply to most. Whether you like it or not, you are obviously a genetic superior when it comes to building/maintaining muscle, AND believe it or not, losing bodyfat (once on a program to do so).
Anyway, before this goes in some other nutty direction, I will call it a day on this stuff. Everyone who I do not work with should try all approaches and see what is OPTIMAL for them, depending on their goals.
Note: And let me just mention, since this thread was based on a public, but somewhat heated, disagreement that I had with Dave Palumbo...it was based solely on bodybuilders preparing for shows that use similar type workouts (4-6 day splits, sets per bodypart anywhere from 6-20, posing practice...plus cardio--and Dave has some people doing 2-plus hours per day!!!).
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There are so many ways to do a so-called "keto" diet. Atkins does VERY high fat, modest protein, very low carb and it works great on very fat people because it induces satiety so well - while you're obese.
TKD is the ultimate transition for anyone who is working their way back from extreme carbohydrate intolerance - insulin sensitivity increases as we lean out, and TKD lets us get back to the safety and comfort of ketosis while we feed our lifting workouts a little glucose, in some form or another.
Carb cycling on high and low carb days - say "over a hundred" and "under a hundred" can be ketogenic for some depending on their mass, metabolism and training type.
And I used it on Merkaba to lean him out for his first contest - he was behind schedule and we had to lean him out in a hurry. Given the timeline, any other method would have lost him too much muscle. Merkaba's never taken anything stronger than creatine - this was a natural show.
We started at 223 on May 13, and he went to weigh-in at 201 to compete June 14th. Cutoff for heavyweight was 192 1/4 so he had to move up a class but he did great anyway.
He came in second in open and forth overall - and he looked really good. There's pix of him here on IMF.
Not my idea of fun. Yuck. Even Lyle warns against doing this in his "Rapid Fat Loss" book.
TKD is the ultimate transition for anyone who is working their way back from extreme carbohydrate intolerance - insulin sensitivity increases as we lean out, and TKD lets us get back to the safety and comfort of ketosis while we feed our lifting workouts a little glucose, in some form or another.
Carb cycling on high and low carb days - say "over a hundred" and "under a hundred" can be ketogenic for some depending on their mass, metabolism and training type.
Yep. TKD. Targeted Ketogenic Diet. It was my first adventure into carbs after Atkins, and it felt like my "get out of jail free" card.
This isn't precontest prep - this is "get the flub off in a hurry 'cause you're behind schedule".
And I used it on Merkaba to lean him out for his first contest - he was behind schedule and we had to lean him out in a hurry. Given the timeline, any other method would have lost him too much muscle. Merkaba's never taken anything stronger than creatine - this was a natural show.
We started at 223 on May 13, and he went to weigh-in at 201 to compete June 14th. Cutoff for heavyweight was 192 1/4 so he had to move up a class but he did great anyway.
He came in second in open and forth overall - and he looked really good. There's pix of him here on IMF.
Not my idea of fun. Yuck. Even Lyle warns against doing this in his "Rapid Fat Loss" book.
Of course you reach ketosis on your diet - all healthy people have episodes of ketosis, for example, while sleeping:
"During an overnight fast, for instance, glucose levels are maintained through both glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis, and the liver begins to generate ketone bodies (e.g. acetoacetate, β-hydroxybutyrate) from fatty acids released by adipose tissue (Cahill, 2006)." 1
"...glucose can be made from other things, notably protein. This is a normal process: when you wake up in the morning, between thirty and seventy percent of your blood glucose comes from gluconeogenesis."2
"...glucose can be made from other things, notably protein. This is a normal process: when you wake up in the morning, between thirty and seventy percent of your blood glucose comes from gluconeogenesis."2
1 Metabolic profiling of the human response to a glucose challenge reveals distinct axes of insulin sensitivity
Oded Shaham, Ru Wei, Thomas J Wang, Catherine Ricciardi,Gregory D Lewis, Ramachandran S Vasan, Steven A Carr, Ravi Thadhani, Robert E Gerszten, and Vamsi K Mootha
2 Dr. Richard D. Feinman, professor of biochemistry at State University of New York Downstate Medical Center, co-editor-in-chief of the journal Nutrition & Metabolism, and director of the Nutrition and Metabolism Society NMSociety Home Page.
Ketosis is normal in healthy individuals - even on "ordinary" diets. It is related to the rise in nighttime GH production - in fact, in obesity, this relationship may be impaired due to chronically elevated blood sugar and in spite of sufficient or even excessive secretion of insulin - the overnight GH spike is often suppressed. In fact, one of the tests for growth hormone deficiency is the "max peak" test, wherein fasted individuals are given insulin to induce hypoglycemia, which in turn stimulates the release of GH in healthy normals.
So, yes, of course you go into ketosis on your diet. Unless you are unwell or on an IV glucose drip in your sleep.
But it's okay. You're supposed to.
Sort of. You did basically a PSMF while doing high-rep training. I don't know how Palumbo does it with his clients - I only know how YOUR keto dieting and training were performed - because you told me. I do believe you that you lost mass doing what you did. I would have too. I'm pretty ordinary in this regard. Lyle is quite clear about the importance of NOT doing this:
The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook by Lyle McDonald | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
"Can exercise hurt?
But can exercise be detrimental to weight or fat loss? In the case of a crash diet (or any
extremely large deficit), the answer is a resounding yes. At least one study has found that
the addition of a large amount of aerobic activity (roughly 6 hours per week) to a protein
sparing modified fast increased the drop in metabolic rate that occurred. It didn’t increase
weight loss over the length of the study (4 weeks) either. Basically the caloric burn of the
exercise led to an adaptive decrease in metabolic rate. Of course, the exercise also burned
excess calories so the end result was the same.
As mentioned above, once you’ve generated a monster daily caloric deficit, burning a few
hundred more calories through aerobic activity is unlikely to have much of an impact. I
should mention that lighter dieters (usually women) often have to add some amount of
aerobic activity along with a caloric deficit to achieve reasonable weekly fat loss although
this generally shouldn’t be the case on the rapid fat loss program.
Weight training hasn’t been studied as extensively in this regards and I’m unaware of any
studies on interval training in terms of how it might interact with the rapid fat loss
program such as the one described in this booklet. Although I’ll make more specific
comments below, I’ll say this upfront: unless it helps with adherence to the diet, I don’t
see much of a point in doing anything but the mildest aerobic activity on the crash diet.
Thirty to forty minutes a few times per week (maybe daily) would be it.
Related to this, I’ve often seen what seems to be a thermodynamic impossibility, the
combination of extremely large caloric deficits with an extremely large amount of activity
(or a very high intensity of activity) often slows down or even stops fat loss completely.
Yes, I know, it seems impossible but I’ve seen it happen enough times (including in myself)
to know it happens.
Basically, if you want to create an extremely large caloric deficit through food restriction,
you absolutely must not do too much activity (folks who have followed the diet in this
book have found this out the hard way, by ignoring my recommendations below and
doing too much activity, they slowed their fat and weight loss). If you want to do a lot of
activity, you cannot cut calories too severely. Again, I know this doesn’t make much
sense and I’m still trying to pin down the mechanisms of why this happens. But the
simple fact is that it does and if you want to avoid problems, you must follow the
recommendations I’m going to give below in terms of how much exercise you can or
should do.
Frankly, weight training a maximum of 2-3 times per week is going to be the best form of
exercise on the rapid fat loss plan. A small amount of low intensity aerobic activity (I
mean brisk walking), if it helps with diet adherence is acceptable as well. Intervals are
inappropriate and should not be done, they simply can’t be recovered from on so few
calories, especially not if proper weight training is being performed. I’ll give more specific
recommendations below.
Why weight training? Well, outside of the reasons discussed above, the reason is that we
want to lose predominantly body fat. Maintaining (for experienced exercisers) or
increasing (for beginners) LBM on the rapid fat loss plan is the primary goal and nothing
will accomplish that more effectively than weight training. The massive daily caloric
deficit will take care of the fat loss, more calorie burning activity simply isn’t necessary or
useful; as discussed above, done in excess it can be detrimental."
But can exercise be detrimental to weight or fat loss? In the case of a crash diet (or any
extremely large deficit), the answer is a resounding yes. At least one study has found that
the addition of a large amount of aerobic activity (roughly 6 hours per week) to a protein
sparing modified fast increased the drop in metabolic rate that occurred. It didn’t increase
weight loss over the length of the study (4 weeks) either. Basically the caloric burn of the
exercise led to an adaptive decrease in metabolic rate. Of course, the exercise also burned
excess calories so the end result was the same.
As mentioned above, once you’ve generated a monster daily caloric deficit, burning a few
hundred more calories through aerobic activity is unlikely to have much of an impact. I
should mention that lighter dieters (usually women) often have to add some amount of
aerobic activity along with a caloric deficit to achieve reasonable weekly fat loss although
this generally shouldn’t be the case on the rapid fat loss program.
Weight training hasn’t been studied as extensively in this regards and I’m unaware of any
studies on interval training in terms of how it might interact with the rapid fat loss
program such as the one described in this booklet. Although I’ll make more specific
comments below, I’ll say this upfront: unless it helps with adherence to the diet, I don’t
see much of a point in doing anything but the mildest aerobic activity on the crash diet.
Thirty to forty minutes a few times per week (maybe daily) would be it.
Related to this, I’ve often seen what seems to be a thermodynamic impossibility, the
combination of extremely large caloric deficits with an extremely large amount of activity
(or a very high intensity of activity) often slows down or even stops fat loss completely.
Yes, I know, it seems impossible but I’ve seen it happen enough times (including in myself)
to know it happens.
Basically, if you want to create an extremely large caloric deficit through food restriction,
you absolutely must not do too much activity (folks who have followed the diet in this
book have found this out the hard way, by ignoring my recommendations below and
doing too much activity, they slowed their fat and weight loss). If you want to do a lot of
activity, you cannot cut calories too severely. Again, I know this doesn’t make much
sense and I’m still trying to pin down the mechanisms of why this happens. But the
simple fact is that it does and if you want to avoid problems, you must follow the
recommendations I’m going to give below in terms of how much exercise you can or
should do.
Frankly, weight training a maximum of 2-3 times per week is going to be the best form of
exercise on the rapid fat loss plan. A small amount of low intensity aerobic activity (I
mean brisk walking), if it helps with diet adherence is acceptable as well. Intervals are
inappropriate and should not be done, they simply can’t be recovered from on so few
calories, especially not if proper weight training is being performed. I’ll give more specific
recommendations below.
Why weight training? Well, outside of the reasons discussed above, the reason is that we
want to lose predominantly body fat. Maintaining (for experienced exercisers) or
increasing (for beginners) LBM on the rapid fat loss plan is the primary goal and nothing
will accomplish that more effectively than weight training. The massive daily caloric
deficit will take care of the fat loss, more calorie burning activity simply isn’t necessary or
useful; as discussed above, done in excess it can be detrimental."
In light of this, although it's a charming thought, I don't think there is anything noteworthy in my bodybuilding genetics. I'm a middle-aged woman who, after being a fat jogger on a low at diet for oooh, twenty or so years, got her butt in gear, read a lot and applied sound scientific principals to obtain completely predictable results.
Merkaba has a beautiful physique, but he responded to the combination of PSMF and abbreviated training in precisely the way I expected him to - I've seen it before and of course, I've read the book. It's a good read.
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Doesn't ketosis take a maximum of 50g of carbs per day to reach the ketogenic stage? Or am I mistaken?
As I've mentioned before, the emphasis on the word "ketogenic" is, for this purpose, somewhat overblown.
All healthy people go through periods of ketosis episodically. I've tested positive for ketones after eating bagels for breakfast - and then going for a 3-hour bike ride around Vancouver.
If you're talking sustained ketosis, then this too will vary somewhat from person to person, especially depending on their activity level. Near as I can tell, being ketotic isn't important to fat loss - maintaining a deficit while risk-managing muscle does this part. Ketosis does however make this process comfortable for many of us, and the high levels of protein WE eat does much to ensure that we remain in a nitrogen-positive state - provided we keep activity to a minimum.
Ketosis of course has many neuroprotective and other health benefits - but that's beyond the scope of this particular application.
All healthy people go through periods of ketosis episodically. I've tested positive for ketones after eating bagels for breakfast - and then going for a 3-hour bike ride around Vancouver.
If you're talking sustained ketosis, then this too will vary somewhat from person to person, especially depending on their activity level. Near as I can tell, being ketotic isn't important to fat loss - maintaining a deficit while risk-managing muscle does this part. Ketosis does however make this process comfortable for many of us, and the high levels of protein WE eat does much to ensure that we remain in a nitrogen-positive state - provided we keep activity to a minimum.
Ketosis of course has many neuroprotective and other health benefits - but that's beyond the scope of this particular application.
Differs from person to person, I think 50g is just a guideline. Weight, muscle mass, activity per day ect. all play a role in acheiving keto.
Built, you need to stop being so literal and focus more on what my main point is about all of this: reaching a state of ketosis for a couple of hours once in a while will have no effect on loss of lean tissue, but a constant state of ketosis (weeks at a time) WILL cause a loss in muscle for someone looking to drop large amounts of bodyfat. This is why it is not OPTIMAL for contest prep, when the goal is not ONLY to get as lean as possible, but to also RETAIN as much muscle mass as possible. A timed low-medium carb diet will allow one to lose just as much bodyfat (maybe it will take an extra week or two), but also to keep far more muscle mass, which is necessary for the stage. Overall result: BETTER PHYSIQUE.
Yes, I provided research studies as to why this happens, but what proved it to me is seeing it with my own eyes over and over for the last 20 years.
Believe it or don't (and we know you don't b/c Lyle is your guru!!). I just want to make sure that my point is not lost.
End scene : )
Yes, I provided research studies as to why this happens, but what proved it to me is seeing it with my own eyes over and over for the last 20 years.
Believe it or don't (and we know you don't b/c Lyle is your guru!!). I just want to make sure that my point is not lost.
End scene : )
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First of all, this is the first time I have heard you say that a constant state of ketosis is your definition of a keto diet. Thank you.
And actually, no. Extended ketosis is how the body protects itself from losing muscle during starvation. In fact, the longer you starve, the greater the reliance on free fatty acids for fuel - and this happens even under conditions of total starvation.
I'm not making this up, I swear!
The body adapts in this way to enhance survival. This trick of metabolism is the basis of how diets such as PSMF work so well for fat loss - and cycling through periods of protein-supplemented starvation, glycogen depletion and then the anabolic benefit of supercompensation forms the basis of UD2.0, which IS ideal for precontest prep. My friend Steve Holt is a natural vegetarian bodybuilder over fifty who uses UD2.0 to prep for his contests, and his results speak for themselves. http://ksteveh.tripod.com/The_Vegetarian_2008_Article.jpg
Ok Built...I am not going to argue this point with you anymore. There are mechanisms within our body that regulate genes, certain hormones, and nutrient deposition that rely on carbs/ENOUGH insulin to work properly, which in this case means to build/RETAIN muscle mass. You are ignoring these major pieces of the puzzle. And again...you do not have the experience that I have preparing hundreds of athletes for contests/sports where muscle mass and low bodyfat are needed to succeed, and it is only through this experience that theories prove to be reality or not. THIS is where my true belief comes from...not from a book or research studies.
He's a very cool guy. He lives in Toronto, but I've met him, and spoken with him about this topic. Steve's the real deal.
He DOES look natural - one of the tipoffs for natty vs assisted is well-capped delts. When you see a guy with delts that look like basketballs - well, put it this way: it's not a sure sign of use, but it's a pretty strong indicator in the sense that a lifter who DOESN'T have them is likely unassisted. You'll see some natty guys with freaky delts, but you'll rarely see an assisted bodybuilder who DOESN'T have freaky delts.
He DOES look natural - one of the tipoffs for natty vs assisted is well-capped delts. When you see a guy with delts that look like basketballs - well, put it this way: it's not a sure sign of use, but it's a pretty strong indicator in the sense that a lifter who DOESN'T have them is likely unassisted. You'll see some natty guys with freaky delts, but you'll rarely see an assisted bodybuilder who DOESN'T have freaky delts.
Humour us, could you please give a brief explination of what you stated above?
I already posted an article with references in regard to all of this in that other thread and also posted the articles I wrote about all of this.
And please, please do not think I am trying to be rude in any way to Built. I understand she has her beliefs and she is committed to them. I am perfectly happy to agree to disagree. Besides, none of us has all day to spend on these boards!
Listen, instead of the studies - they seem to bore you anyway, how about you show us the bodies?
I'd love to see some of your "befores" with ripped to shreds "afters".
The only one I can offer up is Merkaba - I don't do this professionally. (Oh, and I guess me - but I didn't get contest-lean and I don't compete)
I'd love to see some of your "befores" with ripped to shreds "afters".
The only one I can offer up is Merkaba - I don't do this professionally. (Oh, and I guess me - but I didn't get contest-lean and I don't compete)
Im not worried about you being rude to Built, she can handle herself.
Oh and im a student, which means my life is all about exploring things that I love....such as BB/biology. I have all the time in the world to debate things like this.
Oh I know - isn't it just fascinating?
TOO fascinating. There are times where I would rather be reading than spending time with my friends...which is strange.lol
In all seriousness I have had to learn to keep my mouth shut about what I have learnt. At the start when I was beginning to get a little bit of knowledge I would take great pleasure in telling everyone how wrong they were about the whole diet/exercise thing. But as you can imagine it didn???t go down too well. I???ve since learned to just nod and agree, even when one my friends tell me with delight how they spent 18minutes on the treadmill today, I no longer turn around and say 'congrats, you???ve just burned off half that can of coke your now drinking'.
Its interesting: here we have two different views. One is researched based, the other goes by personal experience. Research based is much more cross-sectional, deals with a wider array of people and really gets points hit home. On the other hand of the spectrum, we have the "throw shit into the wind and see what sticks" approach. Or, personal experience.
I'd go with the research based intelligent answers.
I'd go with the research based intelligent answers.
Understood...and I consider myself a student as well. Everyday I look to explore truths!
As for Built, I just wanted to make sure that nobody felt this was getting personal, as I have been down that road and it was not nice.
Ummm...but juggernaut...mine is also research based, as well as based on human physiology.
But, if you wish to ignore that, please be my guest!
Heck, your sig says it all!
And my studies bored you.
As for before and afters...Built, seriously, do you think I have such a desperate need to prove myself to you that I need to dig through pics?
Come on now.
Just end it here peacefully.
And I know...you DO NOT do this professionally, but I do...for 20 years now. And believe me, if you do not know what you are doing in this business, you will not go very far.
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