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God vs Science

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Evil gets reified and has different meanings to different people. Some people talk about tsunamis as evil. Certainly tsunamis can't actually be morally evil since they are not sentient beings. So as with any argument, we need to define our terms.

The student tries to explain that evil is the absence of God. This then presents goodness or "God's love" in a concrete way, as if goodness is some holy mist floating throughout the universe. This view creates all kinds of logical problems like the ones previously raised. All Christians are said to sin yet are suppose to also have God's love present in their heart.


Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart.
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Again this is ambiguous, what result is he talking about? The story equates evil to lack of light or heat(aka energy). Do you know what results you see in the total absence of energy? You don't, there are none.

So to sum up the story: 'We can't say what evil is, we just know it's not God.(...so God isn't evil)' :jerkit:
 
The Egyptians, Ancient Chinese, Greeks, Romans, etc thrived in ages without this Christian god who keeps all hell from breaking loose. I can't think of any group less evil than Tibetan Buddhists and where does this god play into holding evil at bay with them?
 
I feel like the Argument of Evil is overplayed and not particularly relevant overall for the discussion (or if you prefer the term "debate") of science and religion.
 
maniclion said:
The Egyptians, Ancient Chinese, Greeks, Romans, etc thrived in ages without this Christian god who keeps all hell from breaking loose. I can't think of any group less evil than Tibetan Buddhists and where does this god play into holding evil at bay with them?
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This is the thing, the further a way from religion one gets, the bigger the personal burden of one's evil deeds becomes since you are the one responsible for your actions and it might not be enough to just close your eyes and ask for forgiveness. I see loving, good people say and do crazy shit everyday and it's always the same argument "the lord says I'm a sinner by nature" "the lord will forgive me, we all do bad stuff". Religion takes out the personal responsibility and it puts all sinning pretty much in the same category as they can almost all be forgiven by god. I however realize that if I do something bad I have to live with it and some evil deeds can not be forgiven.

In my travels and experiences through others I've noticed that the places that put the least amount of emphasis on organized religion, are usually the safest.

Latin America- religious and dangerous
Many parts of Africa- religious and dangerous
Middle east......
USA-religious and dangerous (extremely high murder/violent crime rates)

Denmark-minimally religious and pretty damn safe
same goes for Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, England for the most part, and the list goes on
 
Gissurjon said:
USA-religious and dangerous (extremely high murder/violent crime rates)

Denmark-minimally religious and pretty damn safe
same goes for Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, England for the most part, and the list goes on
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Where are you getting these numbers from? The stats I remember reading place Britain pretty high for violent crime rates.

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

The murder rate is higher for the U.S. than the UK but not "extremely high" (4.8 vs 1.23). Compare that to countries who are toward the extreme, where the rate is greater than 50 per 100,000.
 
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troubador said:
Where are you getting these numbers from? The stats I remember reading place Britain pretty high for violent crime rates.

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

The murder rate is higher for the U.S. than the UK but not "extremely high" (4.8 vs 1.23). Compare that to countries who are toward the extreme, where the rate is greater than 50 per 100,000.
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You are right on the violent crime (not murders) rate when it comes to England vs. U.S.. I put a "for the most part" in there because they do have a high violent crime rate but murders are far less than the USA. Even though violent crimes are on the rise there you also have to look at the nature of the crimes such "stranger killings" where the USA has been in the lead for a while.
places where murders are concentrated in groups that partake in risky behavior, a person not involved in such activity can generally be pretty safe. It is the "innocent bystander" getting killed that concerns me.

4.8 vs. 1.23 is pretty significant percentage wise.

I'm am not saying that the U.S. is even close to being the worse, but when you consider things such as quality of life (it being among the highest in the world here) it speaks to the violent nature of the country as crime rates usually correlate with poverty/quality of living rates. And despite what many people claim, poor people here usually aren't exactly starving to death.

I've been to the U.K a couple of times and been all through London, not once was I in any real danger of being killed nor did the people I was visiting think i needed to be warned about specific areas. Here, however, I frequently find myself having to detour certain areas as I've been robbed in my car once and had a gun pulled on me on other occasions. Now, I know that my experience does not prove or disprove a point, it merely provides an example.

Having said that, I apologize if I was not clear enough or if the statement was misleading, or if I'm possibly just flat out wrong when it comes to UK US comparison.
 
I believe Mississippi is the most religious state in America. It also has the highest STD and teen pregnancy rates in the country.
 
As of 2009

Mississippi. Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, Louisiana, and Arkansas are the ten most religious.

Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Alaska,Washington, Oregon, Rhode Island, Nevada, and Connecticut are the least ten.

I would be interested to see crime statistic comparisons, along with poverty level rates of these states.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-01-29-faith-state-survey_N.htm
 
Gissurjon said:
4.8 vs. 1.23 is pretty significant percentage wise...

Having said that, I apologize if I was not clear enough or if the statement was misleading, or if I'm possibly just flat out wrong when it comes to UK US comparison.
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Compared to each other yes but that's 3 more people per 100,000. I think you're pretty safe either way. I do think it's misleading and the U.S. unfairly get portrayed as religious nut jobs wanting to kill stuff. I believe Germany still has some sort of tax/tithe the government takes up for the church. I think Denmark has something like that too. The U.S. was the front runner on religious freedom. It certainly has issues though. We've got people running for president who don't believe in evolution. I think maybe less people are religious now than when the country was founded but those who are seem to be more stubborn and less educated.
 
troubador said:
Compared to each other yes but that's 3 more people per 100,000. I think you're pretty safe either way. I do think it's misleading and the U.S. unfairly get portrayed as religious nut jobs wanting to kill stuff. I believe Germany still has some sort of tax/tithe the government takes up for the church. I think Denmark has something like that too. The U.S. was the front runner on religious freedom. It certainly has issues though. We've got people running for president who don't believe in evolution. I think maybe less people are religious now than when the country was founded but those who are seem to be more stubborn and less educated.
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If they do it's irrelevant. It's about the people that make up the country, many governments have old outdated traditions/laws that don't reflect the public opinion in any way whatsoever. Iceland has a "state church" that is heavily funded by taxpayer money but nobody steps foot in there except for christmas eve and that's only to hear the kick ass choir they have singing that night.

yes the US was the front runner in religious freedom... until the first generation of the pilgrims died lol. Down here there you are scum if you don't believe in Jesus.. unless you are Jewish of course.
 
hoyle21 said:
Black people can't be Christians?
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The angriest, most hatefull, backstabbing, badmouthing, "sinful", black people here usually happen to be the ones that talk about jesus the most. That goes back to my point that their religion gives them the leeway needed to sin and just be forgiven later.
 
Gissurjon said:
The angriest, most hatefull, backstabbing, badmouthing, "sinful", black people here usually happen to be the ones that talk about jesus the most. That goes back to my point that their religion gives them the leeway needed to sin and just be forgiven later.
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A lot of these cats don't even give a shit about religion, they just think its gangsta to say "only god can judge me!!!", and wear these big ass chains with Jesus face on it, like Fagye West.
 
hoyle21 said:
As of 2009

Mississippi. Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, Louisiana, and Arkansas are the ten most religious.

Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Alaska,Washington, Oregon, Rhode Island, Nevada, and Connecticut are the least ten.

I would be interested to see crime statistic comparisons, along with poverty level rates of these states.



Mississippi most religious, Vermont least, survey says - USATODAY.com
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Areas With Concentrated Poverty: 2006???2010
www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acsbr10-17.pdf

VIOLENT CRIMES 1 PER 100,000 POPULATION -- 2006
State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Rate

Here are some basic crime stats based off 4 US geographic areas
FBI — Table 2
 
bigbenj said:
A lot of these cats don't even give a shit about religion, they just think its gangsta to say "only god can judge me!!!", and wear these big ass chains with Jesus face on it, like Fagye West.
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I honestly don't see allot of jesus chains anywhere except in rap videos...
 
troubador said:
Compared to each other yes but that's 3 more people per 100,000. I think you're pretty safe either way. I do think it's misleading and the U.S. unfairly get portrayed as religious nut jobs wanting to kill stuff. I believe Germany still has some sort of tax/tithe the government takes up for the church. I think Denmark has something like that too. The U.S. was the front runner on religious freedom. It certainly has issues though. We've got people running for president who don't believe in evolution. I think maybe less people are religious now than when the country was founded but those who are seem to be more stubborn and less educated.
Click to expand...

The danes do have a national church, and if you are a member, you have to pay a 1% tithe. Many in the country are members, but it is not required. If you are not a member you pay nothing. The country itself places few limitations on personal freedom. Most scandinavian countries are similar in attitude. We profess to be a place that believes in religious freedom, but religious persecution is practiced regularly. Hell, up until the 70's, a black man could not even set foot in a Mormon church. The south remains replete with religious fanaticism. I agree that religion and a lack of education go together. The more education a person has, the less likely they are to be religiously associated.
 
MDR said:
The danes do have a national church, and if you are a member, you have to pay a 1% tithe. Many in the country are members, but it is not required. If you are not a member you pay nothing. The country itself places few limitations on personal freedom. Most scandinavian countries are similar in attitude. We profess to be a place that believes in religious freedom, but religious persecution is practiced regularly. Hell, up until the 70's, a black man could not even set foot in a Mormon church. The south remains replete with religious fanaticism. I agree that religion and a lack of education go together. The more education a person has, the less likely they are to be religiously associated.
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Hey watch it buddy, we're nothing like those Danish pricks! lol

Fellow Scandinavian ?
 
Gissurjon said:
Hey watch it buddy, we're nothing like those Danish pricks! lol

Fellow Scandinavian ?
Click to expand...

Yep, Mostly Norwegian and a bit of Danish, so I guess I qualify as one of those pricks! How about you?
 
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