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Supreme Court upholds Obama health care law

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So when the CBO scores this bill and says it will add hugely to the debt and be 1/6-1/5 of GDP, that is all propoganda right? Cause they are right when they say the GOP budgets don't raise revenue which is convenient for a political argument but we can't use that, its propoganda. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Like you and LAM say all the time, facts are facts, you can dismiss them or be ignorant. The facts are this bill is going to be a massive expense just in the people to bring it to fruition and there will be large costs for the uninsured that the government will have to cover. These are facts, you can't insure people without incurring expense and last I checked the government isn't a for profit organization, they actually are doing pretty well at racking up the debt after 12 years of bad leadership.

if you want to look at the facts the US healthcare system is expense intentionally...

* the US has less Dr's per number of citizens than any other large country
* the US has less beds than any other large country
* there are no cost controls to prevent expensive unnecessary testing (MRI's and other scans for everything)
* high cost of medical discourages people from entering the field as a Dr
* the AMA regulates the number of Dr's allowed this keeps the numbers low and wages 3x higher than US foreign counterparts
* cost of prescription medications and length of patents, etc.
* no lifetime healthcare for many
* FDA works for big pharm and healthcare they allow tons of chemicals, etc. into the US food supply which no real caring nation would
* low wages prevent many from being able to afford healthcare with out gov assistance
 
Only in extreme cases will people be getting assistance with their healthcare plan. You won't be taxed more, there won't be a government run healthcare plan except for Medicare and Medicaid, there won't be death panels, there won't be clandestine paramilitary forces, the government won't be deciding what your plan will or will not pay, etc.

Quit buying into the propaganda. You're smarter than that.

The healthcare act is far from perfect but it isn't what the GOP has said it is.

"Only in extreme cases." :funny:

"You won't be taxed more." :rofl:

When the hell did I ever allude to something like a "death panel"? What's next? Going to bring Godzilla into it? When did you stop liking reality?

Yeah, everyone, including the poor, are suddenly going to get better health care -- fucking magically -- without more taxes being levied. You just went full retard.
 
I know that is what you are talking about, but unless there is some act of God the demolishes the federal and state governments we're screwed. Until then just put on your cape because you're that new superhero, Captain Fucked.

I have more chance of seeing the government properly regulate an industry than you do of seeing the health care in the nation getting bumped up without more taxes being levied, moron.
 
Not a single one will.

I was just noting the irony in a bunch of people fed up with a country that just accepted "socialized" healthcare leaving that country to go to a country with an even more socialized system that has been implemented for decades.
 
lastly i don't want any more of my money going to the ghetto's, trailer parks, or to illegal f'n immigrants...i don't work so they can be taken care of...i work so I CAN BE taken care of and if i choose to have a family i'll work hard for them too...

^ This is the new American dream. Come to America illegally where you can reap all its benefits, utilitze health care coverage at the expense of tax payers. Our President sadly agrees with this policy. It's pathetic that we allow such a crime infested population to use the benefits designed to be used by citizens. I think there should be a new law - Every tax season if you make enough money, after you pay the government your taxes your allowed to go out and kill 10 mexicans with no consequences. Every time tax season comes around i go to the shittiest fucking town and go to their local walmart. I walk down the isles shoving mexican families telling them they're welcome as they drop their food stamps that WE paid for.
 
^ This is the new American dream. Come to America illegally where you can reap all its benefits, utilitze health care coverage at the expense of tax payers. Our President sadly agrees with this policy. It's pathetic that we allow such a crime infested population to use the benefits designed to be used by citizens. I think there should be a new law - Every tax season if you make enough money, after you pay the government your taxes your allowed to go out and kill 10 mexicans with no consequences. Every time tax season comes around i go to the shittiest fucking town and go to their local walmart. I walk down the isles shoving mexican families telling them they're welcome as they drop their food stamps that WE paid for.

I live in a part of the country with a lot of Mexican and Central/South American immigrants; I would say more than 90% work there ass off no matter their legal status in regards to immigration. The people who do DICK SHIT NOTHING are the blacks, I'm sorry I try so hard to give you 9 million second chances, think Charlie Sheen times 1 million, but you keep fucking proving me right. I have heard all the liberal arguments about they don't get a fair shot, the schools are bad, it boils down to the people and how they are raised. I would much rather see caps on welfare of that population than the Mexicans, they actually come here to work.
 
officer-indicted-shooting
The problem is no one is invoking the 2nd ammendment and the reason our forefathers made it #2 on the list. How many of you are willing to do what the men who wrote the constitution did? They shot and killed their own people for being part of a corrupt government. Every day we drive to work how many cops do you see stalking commuters on the side of the road instead of stalking the junkies and crackheads in the slums? Right there is your enemy.

 
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This is a half assed explanation. There is no true competition and one of the biggest issues, you being a doctor I cannot believe have not mentioned by the way, is tort reform like what is in place in Indiana. It limits costs associated with mal practice, must be why so many great physicians practice there or so I am told by someone with 37 years of nursing experience (the real source of unbiased knowledge, not doctors). My other point, there is no interstate commerce, that was left out because it allowed for state monopolies by the insurance companies. They would actually have to compete and face the real world like so many other businesses do with national and global competition. Does your basic point about needing more people to offset losses make sense, without question, did they leave out the key issue that has great potential to drive down costs, you better believe it because that would mean less profits. And a lot of these companies don't even pay much tax either, its not corrupt at all, like the FDA.

tort reform has not made a dent, i have seen study after study, too laxy to referrence them but here is agood synopsis

Tort Reform Unlikely to Cut Health Care Costs | The Washington Independent
 
if you want to look at the facts the US healthcare system is expense intentionally...

* the US has less Dr's per number of citizens than any other large country
* the US has less beds than any other large country


so what's going to happen when over 30 million people enter into the health care insurance system now?
 
here is a excerpt from my link showing how tort reform makes no dent in cost control. We need it , and I lobby for it, but it is disingenous to say that is the panacea

And a 2004 report by the Congressional Budget Office said medical malpractice makes up only 2 percent of U.S. health spending. Even “significant reductions” would do little to curb health-care expenses, it concluded.

A study by Bloomberg also found that the proportion of medical malpractice verdicts among the top jury awards in the U.S. declined over the last 20 years. “Of the top 25 awards so far this year, only one was a malpractice case.” Moreover, at least 30 states now cap damages in medical lawsuits.

The experience of Texas in capping damage awards is a good example. Contrary to Perry’s claims, a recent analysis by Atul Gawande in the New Yorker found that while Texas tort reforms led to a cap on pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, which led to a dramatic decline in lawsuits, McAllen, Texas is one of the most expensive health care markets in the country. In 2006, “Medicare spent fifteen thousand dollars per person enrolled in McAllen, he finds, which is almost twice the national average — although the average town resident earns only $12,000 a year. “Medicare spends three thousand dollars more per person here than the average person earns.”
 
you can see on the pie chart malpractice is a small part
 

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so what's going to happen when over 30 million people enter into the health care insurance system now?

just because people have access to healthcare doesn't mean they are going to utilize it. i'm sure we all know people that hate and/or never go to the Dr. for fear of finding out something is wrong.

but to answer your question it depends on the area, the south is already low in Dr's and nurses so the odds are negative effects will be felt the most there.

part of the problem is that healthcare is a protected industry, trade there (as in labor) has not been liberalized like it has in various service sectors, manufacturing and IT. more proof that free trade agreements in the US are bullshit
 
Here's an alternative... If you opt out of insurance you then agree to a tattoo that tells EMTs and emergency rooms to ignore you and deny all care to you.
 
If people are being fined by the gov for not having insurance how is the gov paying for uninsured people? Is their any reading comprehension going on here or are half of you clinging to soundbites you heard from your favorite partisan rabble rousing cheerleader?

Are you really thinking I can't read, wow.
 
here is a excerpt from my link showing how tort reform makes no dent in cost control. We need it , and I lobby for it, but it is disingenous to say that is the panacea

McAllen is full of retirees, that is a terrible example. No doubt income is so low and costs so high; that is using flawed statistics to make an argument that favors your opinion.
 
Here's an alternative... If you opt out of insurance you then agree to a tattoo that tells EMTs and emergency rooms to ignore you and deny all care to you.

Ever hear of a database and IDs?

But I like your ID. Those of us that don't want to be a part of, including paying for it, opt out. The rest of you can pay for it. Have fun.
 
McAllen is full of retirees, that is a terrible example. No doubt income is so low and costs so high; that is using flawed statistics to make an argument that favors your opinion.

ok different state , same outcome

Ohio's tort reform law hasn't lowered health-care costs | cleveland.com

i can keep going, show me a study that shows tort reform helped reduced cost?

once again, it comprises 3% of medical costs, we got to work with the elephant in the room, not the mouse
 
just because people have access to healthcare doesn't mean they are going to utilize it. i'm sure we all know people that hate and/or never go to the Dr. for fear of finding out something is wrong.

but to answer your question it depends on the area, the south is already low in Dr's and nurses so the odds are negative effects will be felt the most there.

part of the problem is that healthcare is a protected industry, trade there (as in labor) has not been liberalized like it has in various service sectors, manufacturing and IT. more proof that free trade agreements in the US are bullshit

replying to the bolded...having access and being forced to have it are two very very different things...if you're forced to pay for something guaranteed you're gonna use and most likely abuse it more...nobody likes losing money they previously had in their pocket...so being forced to pay for it i'm going to the dr for every hang nail, cold, cough, headached, etc i can and take every prescription offered since everyone is paying for it...realize there's really no caps set up as to how many times a person can go and keep going to the dr now...

also did you realize that hospitals are really the worst places to go if you're one who gets sick easily? they're flooded with viruses...you're safer and healthier just simply staying home in most cases...

this law and tax has opened the floodgates...
 
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Here's where you're wrong...foreign governments suppress uprisings and protests mainly by military force. I have a hard time believing, as of now, that the American military would ever shoot American citizens in the event of severe uprisings or protest(s). I personally, nor do I know of any military servicemembers that would ever support or engage in that type of activity. "...enemies domestic and abroad..."

Secondly, my freedom is not an illusion. 90% of the activities I engage in here, the outspokeness that I have here, the decisions that I make here would never be tolerated in a foreign arab country. (as you claim)

Put down your wine cooler, you're talkin' funny stuff...


Twenty years ago you would be right. This is why those sorry fucks in DC want to let the drones loose in the US....so one day when the shit finally hits the fan, some young fat sweaty fuck in a room with no windows can fire on US citizens like he's playing Grand Theft Auto.

Considering the amount of weapons and assault weapons we possess as citizens, the federal gov't could never suppress a huge uprising one on one even if they activated the National Guard. They will need military weapons and counter measures even if that means soldier-less weapons that can take out people in mass from afar.
 
We are officially the Communist States of America now.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. You see, the big insurance companies are the ones that insisted that the mandate be put into any health care plan. The fought against the opening up of medicare. Basically what I see is the ruling went exactly the way the big ins co's wanted. I think Roberts followed his orders just like the rest of the justices. Give the big ins co's their profit, stop the little guy from getting anything at all and make it "look" like a win for the people.

I think we are, and have been, officially a corporatist run oligarchy. If the decision were a step toward, of the even the last step to, communism, it would have been the opposite and ruled for what was basically a single payer system.
 
just because people have access to healthcare doesn't mean they are going to utilize it. i'm sure we all know people that hate and/or never go to the Dr. for fear of finding out something is wrong.

I'm a perfect example of this. I pay in to the system and am forced to pay $350 a month. I haven't been to the Doctor since 2006 and don't foresee myself going in any time soon. I'll gladly pay $2k a year for a very basic plan that covers what I will need but probably never use.

I am 100% for allowing people who don't want it to opt out and either buy their own coverage or go without provided they refuse all healthcare services for life. The path we are on is currently unsustainable, and given we spend the most as a percentage of GDP and get far inferior coverage as a whole compared to other countries who are completely socialized points in that direction. That isn't to say that we may not have some aspects of our system that are better, but they serve less than 1% of the population whether it be uber-rich folk or people with rare genetic diseases.
 
From The Heritage Lectures 218: Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans, 1989:

“There is an implicit contract between households in society, based on the notion that health insurance is not like other forms of insurance protection. If a young man wrecks his Porsche and does not have the foresight to obtain insurance, we may commiserate but society feels no obligation to repair his car. Healthcare is different. If a man is struck down by a heart attack in the street, Americans will care for him whether or not he has insurance. If we find that he has spent his money on other things rather than insurance, we may be angry but we will not deny him services – even if that means more prudent citizens end up paying the tab … A mandate on individuals recognizes this implicit contract.”

This is precisely what Mitt Romney did in Massachussetts and what most Republican politicians embraced before it was incorporated into the ACA.

The Republicans who flipped on this after Obama adopted it as a central tenant of the Affordable Care Act are the worst kind of hypocrites.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...l-mandate.html
 
"Only in extreme cases." :funny:

"You won't be taxed more." :rofl:

When the hell did I ever allude to something like a "death panel"? What's next? Going to bring Godzilla into it? When did you stop liking reality?

Yeah, everyone, including the poor, are suddenly going to get better health care -- fucking magically -- without more taxes being levied. You just went full retard.

How, exactly, will you be paying more?
 
America is the #1 fattest country and #29 in math. If we teach kids to count and read they can count calories and read labels for fat content, thus having a healthy society and eliminating the need for health care altogehter. Your welcome.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/u...?_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120630

[h=1]For Uninsured in Texas, Supreme Court Ruling Adds to Uncertainty[/h][h=6]By MANNY FERNANDEZ[/h]PASADENA, Tex. — In an ordinary world, Josh Hebert would have accepted the raises his employer offered.
But in the extraordinary world of the uninsured, he has not only turned down the pay increases at the bank where he works, but has twice asked for a pay cut — so that he and his wife’s ill 7-year-old daughter can qualify for government-sponsored children’s health insurance.

By keeping his income low, he and his wife, Kyla, are able to ensure that their daughter continues to have health coverage. The parents remain uninsured themselves, like thousands of others in this working-class refinery town outside Houston. Thirty-three percent of the population here lacks medical insurance.

Nearby in Houston, hours after the Supreme Court’s ruling on Thursday upheld the core provisions of President Obama’s health care overhaul, Luis Duran hardly paid attention. He and his wife sifted through medical documents stuffed in a paper bag, evidence of his ordeal to survive cancer without health insurance.

A crane operator, Mr. Duran had been covered for years through his employer, but a simple paperwork oversight left him uninsured last year. Months later, he learned he had colon cancer, and spent roughly $7,000 on a colonoscopy and surgery — a reduced rate — using money he received from relatives and from selling some of his and his wife’s jewelry, including a 14-karat gold medallion of Jesus Christ.

“When you don’t have insurance, nobody listens to you,” said Mr. Duran, 51, who had been making about $50,000 annually but is now on disability. “It’s a powerless feeling. You feel like you’re an outcast. You feel that you’re homeless without insurance.”

In Texas — where 25 percent of the population lacks health insurance, the highest uninsured rate of any state, according to the Texas Medical Association — the Supreme Court’s ruling was not quite the partisan victory or defeat it might have been in Washington. Though those without health coverage perhaps had the most at stake, the ruling was one more element of uncertainty in uncertain lives, drowned out by more pressing medical needs and financial pressures.

The uncertainty was intensified by unanswered questions over the state’s efforts to fight the expansion of Medicaid, the government health-insurance program for low-income and sick people. Expanding Medicaid was the major portion of the health care law that the Supreme Court restricted in its decision, allowing states flexibility to opt out of the expansion without penalties. Thomas M. Suehs, the commissioner of the Texas Health and Human Services agency, said he remained concerned that expanding Medicaid without reforming it multiplied the costs the program put on states, adding that Medicaid already consumed a quarter of the state budget.
As a result, many of the uninsured in Texas who would be eligible for coverage under the expansion remain in a state of limbo.

“It’s a big concern,” said Gladys Vasquez, 50, a Houston home health aide who cannot afford private insurance on her $17,000 annual salary and whose employer does not offer her coverage. “Right now, it’s scary to get sick, because if you don’t die from the sickness, you die when you see the bill.”

Mrs. Vasquez takes care of her own medical needs at a local clinic and by relying on her 90-year-old mother’s home remedies. On Thursday, watching the television news coverage of the ruling at her client’s house, she let out a cheer.
“It’s like a dream come true,” said Mrs. Vasquez, a member of the Texas Organizing Project, a community activist group. “It’s something we really needed.”

In Houston and the surrounding suburbs and cities in Harris County, including Pasadena, the number of uninsured people like Mrs. Vasquez is so large — more than one million people — it rivals the total population of Dallas. They defy easy categorization.

Though some are newly arrived illegal immigrants living in extreme poverty, many others, like Mr. Hebert, Mr. Duran and Mrs. Vasquez, are American citizens with mortgages or part-time and full-time jobs. Some work in businesses that do not offer coverage, or they cannot afford private insurance; others are eligible but not enrolled in government programs like Medicaid.

Nearly 40 percent are Hispanic, 21 percent are black, and another 21 percent are Asian, according to the Texas Medical Association. The Harris County Hospital District provided $1.1 billion to care for the uninsured and underinsured last fiscal year, about half of which was financed by county property taxes. Mr. Duran, for example, pays a subsidized fee for his chemotherapy treatments at a district hospital.

In Pasadena, the Heberts have been struggling to care for their daughter, Katie, who had brain lesions and is being evaluated for mitochondrial disease, a genetic disorder primarily affecting children that damages cells of the brain, heart, liver and respiratory systems, among others.

Mr. Hebert earns roughly $45,600 annually, but declined the health insurance offered by his employer, not only because of its expense, but because it would not cover all of Katie’s needs.
They tried to enroll Katie and their healthy 10-year-old son, Nathan, in the government-sponsored Children’s Health Insurance Program, which provides coverage to children whose families cannot afford private insurance but have incomes too high to qualify for Medicaid.

Mr. Hebert’s annual salary initially put them $3,100 a over the limit, so he asked for a pay cut so Katie could qualify for the children’s program, and asked once more after the children were enrolled because he received an automatic cost–of-living raise.

“I’m thankful that we were able to take a pay cut and get Katie what she needs, because it was truly our only option, but it should not be this way,” said Mrs. Hebert, 28, a stay-at-home mother and a University of Houston student. “I think very few Americans truly want to be uninsured, and if health insurance becomes something that the majority of Americans can afford, then very few people will choose to go without it. I know that I would love to have that safety net.”
Yet Mrs. Hebert said she was uncertain how the provision of the health care law that was upheld requiring virtually all Americans to buy health insurance or else pay a fine would affect her.

If they were required to be insured and had to use the plan offered by Mr. Hebert’s employer, they could not survive, because the cost would amount to 25 percent of his income, she said. Under the law, it is likely that they would qualify for a federal subsidy to offset some of that cost, since their share comes to more than 9.5 percent of their income, a detail they had not realized. For the couple, there are more questions than answers.

Because Katie remains undiagnosed for mitochondrial disease, one of her specialists has ordered a genetics test costing $17,000. The children’s program declined to pay for the procedure, but an appeal is pending. The day after the ruling on Friday, Mrs. Hebert took her daughter to an occupational therapy appointment, and when they returned home, they walked past Katie’s IV pole at the bottom of the stairs.

“People are hypothesizing about what it’s going to mean two years down the road,” Mrs. Hebert said of the Supreme Court decision. “But we kind of deal with today, and where we are today.”
 
America is the #1 fattest country and #29 in math. If we teach kids to count and read they can count calories and read labels for fat content, thus having a healthy society and eliminating the need for health care altogehter. Your welcome.

it would be nice if it were that easy but the effects of modeling supersedes a lot of information. I remember when I first started doing some personal training back in the 2000's and I learned first hand just how difficult it is to get people with unhealthy diets to change. people are inherently lazy and many don't like change and nothing takes more effort than going from an unhealthy diet to a healthy diet. most just aren't willing to put forth the effort.
 
America is the #1 fattest country and #29 in math. If we teach kids to count and read they can count calories and read labels for fat content, thus having a healthy society and eliminating the need for health care altogehter. Your welcome.



i love how people think calories are a bad thing..
 
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