ephys88 and other IM evolutionists, please explain the origin of the universe

[troubador]

Or the smartest thing created. It's a method for controlling the masses. It's like an evolution of slavery

Religion was created to control the elite. Better put - religion was the creation of an enforcer(god) of the natural self interests of the weak(altruism). The guiding principles are always that of altruism, giving to the poor,humility, the meek shall inherit the earth,etc; in other words "herd morality" or "slave morality". The elite does not need to manipulate the masses in the absence of these values. After a religion becomes popular with the masses the elite pander to the masses and might use religion to manipulate them. But the elite creating an altruistic morality and supernatural almighty enforcer of such morality to control the masses is creating more of a problem than a solution.

Most people not knowing the history of morality don't realize the values they inherit. Altruism plus some enforcer equals religion. There are even atheists who are religious minded, the enforcer need not be supernatural.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Religion was created to control the elite. Better put - religion was the creation of an enforcer(god) of the natural self interests of the weak(altruism). The guiding principles are always that of altruism, giving to the poor,humility, the meek shall inherit the earth,etc; in other words "herd morality" or "slave morality". The elite does not need to manipulate the masses in the absence of these values. After a religion becomes popular with the masses the elite pander to the masses and might use religion to manipulate them. But the elite creating an altruistic morality and supernatural almighty enforcer of such morality to control the masses is creating more of a problem than a solution.

Most people not knowing the history of morality don't realize the values they inherit. Altruism plus some enforcer equals religion. There are even atheists who are religious minded, the enforcer need not be supernatural.

Lol, you read Nietzsche and think you know everything.

What you guys fail to realize, is that there religion =/= spirituality.


The problem is that when monkeys get a hold of something they tend to abuse it.

The idea of "God" is just one of these manifestations.

 

[troubador]

Lol, you read Nietzsche and think you know everything.

What you guys fail to realize, is that there religion =/= spirituality.

Didn't say I know everything or mention spirituality but nice trolling attempt.

 

[heckler7]

God see all

 

[hoyle21]

 

[exphys88]

View attachment 48309

Correction:
First, we tell them to rape and murder women and children, then we send my son, who is actually me and he tells them how to behave.

 

[LAM]

Correction:
First, we tell them to rape and murder women and children, then we send my son, who is actually me and he tells them how to behave.

http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/havetouched.jpg

 

[heckler7]

Correction:
First, we tell them to murder and rape, women and children, then I spirit rape a virgin disguised as a dove, we send my son, who is actually me and he tells them how to behave.

fixed

 

[bandaidwoman]

Ok, here is what I ask my medical students:

What scientific principle explains and predicts why chimps,like humans lack the 1,3 galactose epitope on surface molecules of their cells, ( important in acute rejection of xenotransplanted tissues), which is why we have to knock out the gene in transgenic pigs when we use their tissue for organ xenotransplantation? ( we use a lot of pig tissue for skin grafts in wound care). All other vertebral mammals put the 1,3 galactose epitope on their surface antigens except chimps and old world monkeys ( closest to us on the evolutionary tree). Logistically we don't use chimp skin because they are too expensive to raise and ethics of slaughtering chimps for tissue grafts is less distasteful than pigs, since we already use them for food.....

2nd. What scientific principle explains and predicts why we start with mice for clinical trials and not spiders or birds? ( the latter are descendents from the same line as dinosaurs)? Hint: common descent allows animals to be substituted for humans in clinical drug trials.

3rd. what scientific principle explains why the pax6 gene that codes for eye formation is almost exactly the same in mice as it is in humans? Hint: field of evo devo.

4th. Hox gene, which is pleiotropic and codes for vertebral axis formation as well as cell division is an evolutionary constraint that mandates that all vertebral animals have exactly 7 cervical vertebrae ( 7 neck bones). Yes, the giraffe, the whale, the human, the mice, the chimp, the cat , the elephant all, I mean all have exactly 7 cervical vertebrae. ( the excetion is manatee and sloths, but that is it) Birds don't have such a constraint ( swans have 25 cervical vertebrae)... oh but wait, birds are not mammals.............By the way, the hox gene is also why all vertebral animals do not have more than five digits for the last 350 million years......The Hox gene is preserved throughout the animal kingdom through evolution ( evolution uses old parts for new tricks) because it is deadly ( cancers arise) if it is not preserved.

For example, some humans have a 7th cervical rib ( hox defect) where a rib arises from the 7th cervical rib. 55% of spontaneously aborted fetuses have 7th cervical rib, 25% of all childhood cancers ( ewing sarcoma, childhood leukemias etc.) these kids have a 7th cervical rib. This is an evolutionary principle called antagonisitc pleiotropy which may explain a lot of childhood cancers..

and the list goes on.......in other words, what other scientific principle comes even close to predicting and finding the above? Nothing, but evolution predicts and explains the above. Intelligent design doesn't, irreducible complexity doesn't..

 

[bandaidwoman]

My littlest sister lives with my grandparents and goes to a private school, I almost fucking lost it when they told me her school doesn't teach anything at all about evolution. I would be ok with her church teaching her "creationism" if her school at least made it clear that evolution has been proven and is accepted amongst all first world countries as the explanation for life on earth, instead she's taught that evolution is "just a theory" by her science teacher who almost definitely does not understand evolution one bit....


I'm all for accepting people's religion, but when my six year old sister is being raised completely ignorant of one of the most important scientific discoveries in human history I have a problem with that. Her science teacher I'm sure tells them "some people actually believe we came from monkeys! Can you believe that LOL!" I find it completely absurd that America is letting this happen in some schools. In this day and age not understanding/believing in evolution will be a hugeee handicap if she ever decides she wants to pursue a career in science.

What gets my goat is creationism and intelligent design aren't scientific theories, yet they are taught as "alternative" scientific theories.

You can't design a single, falsifiable, reproducible experiment , and therefore, it is not a scientific theory. The criteria, is that it can be tested. Of course that leaves something like String Theory, technically not a scientific theory, ( since we don't have the technological tools to design an experiment) but it has internal rigorous mathmatical testing. If experiments have been done, then my apologies, I am not a theoretical physicist.

Second, teaching creationism is intellectually and scientifically lazy. You don't try to devise new ways of answering difficult problems and searching for novel ways of explaining the findings around you. You just have to throw up your hands and say "god created it",, oh well!

Third, the Theory of evolution has hundreds and thousands of lines of data and inquiry that are internally and externally consistent and provide proof. The whole field of molecular biology, Evo devo, population genetics, paleoentology, comparative anatomy and phylogenics, embryology, geology, radiometric dating etc. all converge to prove evolution over and over again. Hell, it has more "proof" by sheer volume than say the current theory of gravity , general relativity. The latter has experimental proof using gravitional red shift, gravity lenses, atomic clock experiments etc. ( I know there is more but forgive my simpleton views) but you get the gist.

Evolution doesn't negate religiosity. WHen I was working at COld SPring Harbor Laboratory I worked with a jesuit priest who was a superb molecular biologist and a Turkish muslim molecular biologist. Both said something that I still remember to this day and I will paraphrase them. "Intelligent design resonates with them but it is absolutely useless for designing their experiments...only evolutionary helps them design their experiments".

 

[exphys88]

What gets my goat is creationism and intelligent design aren't scientific theories, yet they are taught as "alternative" scientific theories.

You can't design a single, falsifiable, reproducible experiment , and therefore, it is not a scientific theory. The criteria, is that it can be tested. Of course that leaves something like String Theory, technically not a scientific theory, ( since we don't have the technological tools to design an experiment) but it has internal rigorous mathmatical testing. If experiments have been done, then my apologies, I am not a theoretical physicist.

Second, teaching creationism is intellectually and scientifically lazy. You don't try to devise new ways of answering difficult problems and searching for novel ways of explaining the findings around you. You just have to throw up your hands and say "god created it",, oh well!

Third, the Theory of evolution has hundreds and thousands of lines of data and inquiry that are internally and externally consistent and provide proof. The whole field of molecular biology, Evo devo, population genetics, paleoentology, comparative anatomy and phylogenics, embryology, geology, radiometric dating etc. all converge to prove evolution over and over again. Hell, it has more "proof" by sheer volume than say the current theory of gravity , general relativity. The latter has experimental proof using gravitional red shift, gravity lenses, atomic clock experiments etc. ( I know there is more but forgive my simpleton views) but you get the gist.

Evolution doesn't negate religiosity. WHen I was working at COld SPring Harbor Laboratory I worked with a jesuit priest who was a superb molecular biologist and a Turkish muslim molecular biologist. Both said something that I still remember to this day and I will paraphrase them. "Intelligent design resonates with them but it is absolutely useless for designing their experiments...only evolutionary helps them design their experiments".

I have a problem w Muslims or Christians who accept evolution. Their religions are not compatible w evolution. Once you accept evolution, the entire concept of the fall of man becomes a lie, and therefore the entire premise that the religions is built upon is gone.
They're just lying to themselves.

 

[LAM]

Second, teaching creationism is intellectually and scientifically lazy. You don't try to devise new ways of answering difficult problems and searching for novel ways of explaining the findings around you. You just have to throw up your hands and say "god created it",, oh well!

couldn't be stated any better than that. a nation of lazy thinkers that don't question and just accept things as they are is exactly what they want.

 

[bandaidwoman]

I have a problem w Muslims or Christians who accept evolution. Their religions are not compatible w evolution. Once you accept evolution, the entire concept of the fall of man becomes a lie, and therefore the entire premise that the religions is built upon is gone.
They're just lying to themselves.

Even scientists are capable of cognitive dissonance.

However, some christians, like the quakers, don't accept the literal meaning of the bible, which is why , if you ever go to a quaker meeting ( my american dad and grandparents are quakers) many are scientists. Of course, quakers also believe in feminine equality, abolition of slaverly long before anyone did so they were so radical and subversive they were thrown out of europe. THey also have been marrying gays in civil ceremonies since at least 1985 ( I went to one between two lesbians at my quaker meeting house). They also don't think christians have a monopoly into heaven, hence, another reason they were pesecuted in europe. Thank goodness for the 1st amendment.

 

[heckler7]

why wont you all except my god, must I kill you to prove he is great!

 

[exphys88]

Even scientists are capable of cognitive dissonance.

However, some christians, like the quakers, don't accept the literal meaning of the bible, which is why , if you ever go to a quaker meeting ( my american dad and grandparents are quakers) many are scientists. Of course, quakers also believe in feminine equality, abolition of slaverly long before anyone did so they were so radical and subversive they were thrown out of europe. THey also have been marrying gays in civil ceremonies since at least 1985 ( I went to one between two lesbians at my quaker meeting house). They also don't think christians have a monopoly into heaven, hence, another reason they were pesecuted in europe. Thank goodness for the 1st amendment.

Once you say that you don't accept the literal interpretation of the bible, the bible becomes pointless. Just a book of stories and allegory w both horrendous and positive messages that one must arbitrarily decide which ones to listen to. It's no longer the word of god and the entire religion becomes pointless.

 

[heckler7]

Once you say that you don't accept the literal interpretation of the bible, the bible becomes pointless. Just a book of stories and allegory w both horrendous and positive messages that one must arbitrarily decide which ones to listen to. It's no longer the word of god and the entire religion becomes pointless.

bible has alot of good messages, like eating shrimp is a sin, its ok to beat your slaves as long as they can get up after 3 days, and for Azza if you lay with another man as you lay with a woman you will burn in hell.

 

[Glycomann]

your post is not saying that we evolved from a banana, rather.. we were once the same substance, and some of that substance evolved into a banana, and some of that substance evolved into a human?

That solves it Donkey. The inescapable logic is that you are a banana.

 

[LAM]

Even scientists are capable of cognitive dissonance.

However, some christians, like the quakers, don't accept the literal meaning of the bible, which is why , if you ever go to a quaker meeting ( my american dad and grandparents are quakers) many are scientists. Of course, quakers also believe in feminine equality, abolition of slaverly long before anyone did so they were so radical and subversive they were thrown out of europe. THey also have been marrying gays in civil ceremonies since at least 1985 ( I went to one between two lesbians at my quaker meeting house). They also don't think christians have a monopoly into heaven, hence, another reason they were pesecuted in europe. Thank goodness for the 1st amendment.

I went to a Quaker school when my family lived in the city in Philly before we moved out to the suburbs in the mid 70's. it was nothing at all like the public school that I went to after that.

wasn't Ben Franklin a Quaker?

 

[bandaidwoman]

I went to a Quaker school when my family lived in the city in Philly before we moved out to the suburbs in the mid 70's. it was nothing at all like the public school that I went to after that.

wasn't Ben Franklin a Quaker?

Not sure, but susan b anthony started off as a quaker then became an athiest.The latter is quite common among quakers, not sure why. My grandparents, both chemical engineers, became athiests. My dad is still a theist quaker.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Once you say that you don't accept the literal interpretation of the bible, the bible becomes pointless. Just a book of stories and allegory w both horrendous and positive messages that one must arbitrarily decide which ones to listen to. It's no longer the word of god and the entire religion becomes pointless.

true, but I learned malay by reading the quaran in Malaysia and Singapore, read the bible to learn english at a baptist missionary school, both are literary masterpieces, like homer's iliad. Unfortunately, most religious folks ( outside quakers) , just don't seem to realize how arbitrary they are with picking and choosing from their religious books, but then, cognitive dissonance is a common psycological protective mechanism for most humans...

 

[bandaidwoman]

Originally Posted by Standard Donkey View Post
your post is not saying that we evolved from a banana, rather.. we were once the same substance, and some of that substance evolved into a banana, and some of that substance evolved into a human?

My answer is drier but it's because evolution involves using old genes to develop new tricks. ( It's why we all inhabit an imperfect bodies). It's not the number of genes that count , it is how it is expressed or turned on and off. ( Corn has almost 1 1/2 more genes than humans). No matter how divergent our forms , we share specific gene families that regulate major aspects of body patterning. Small set of gene complexes, like the HOX and PAX genes are expressed in novel ways that generate large scale changes in a non-incremental pattern. THe HOX gene that generates the whale fin is strikingly similar to the human's hox gene that generates fingers... the difference... the amount of time that gene is turned on!! IN other words, evolution almost always build on existing scaffolding, old parts and genes get co-opted for new roles, it does not dismantle a variant conferring fitness!!!

sorry, just gave this talk to my med students so it's at the tip of my fingers.

 

[Standard Donkey]

I have a problem w Muslims and Christians.

fixed

 

[exphys88]

fixed

You are correct, especially Muslims in current times.

 

[bandaidwoman]

You are correct, especially Muslims in current times.

i agree with you about the cluster fuck in the middle east. but believe it or not, the muslims in the united states have less of a problem with evolution than traditional christians. For one, many muslims regard Adam, not as the first human on earth but the first to recieve a revelation from god. I work with many, many muslims. ( especially from Turkey and egypt and Iran). Dr. Ehab Abouheif - Department of Biology, McGill University This guy spoke at Cold Spring harbor so I just wanted to put a muslim name to pioneering evolutionist biologist. The fundamentalist christians and muslims all put such a bad taste in everybody's mouth, if only people like abouheif and christian evolutionists could be more vocal. ( other than in publications)

 

[exphys88]

Extremists get the most attention unfortunately.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Extremists get the most attention unfortunately.

Unfortumately, here in the south, i have to argue with the christian medical students when I teach this stuff about evolution. Remember, medical students come from a huge array of backgrounds and skills... the jews, muslims, hindis and buddists never argue with me, it's always the christians,... but I am in the south...

 

[exphys88]

Unfortumately, here in the south, i have to argue with the christian medical students when I teach this stuff about evolution. Remember, medical students come from a huge array of backgrounds and skills... the jews, muslims, hindis and buddists never argue with me, it's always the christians,... but I am in the south...

I work for a seventh day Adventist hospital and deal w it all the time too. They start every staff meeting w a prayer regardless of the faith of who is present. Nepotism is rampant which leads to complete incompetence in administration.
I wear an atheist pin on my lab coat lol.

 

[LAM]

Once you say that you don't accept the literal interpretation of the bible, the bible becomes pointless.

and considering how the bible was written (by what 60-70 different authors over 1500-2000 years) how could anyone ever accept the literal interpretation of it and that's with out even adding in what is known today about linguistics, general semantics (korzybski principle) and the things that we know know are indeed factual vs "facts" made up by belief systems.


* I remember being young like 6-7 and sitting in church and saying to myself "this is so boring and I don't believe anything these people are talking about" and "if this is so good for us why do mom and dad drop us off, why don't they ever come to church?".

 

[maniclion]

I have a problem w Muslims or Christians who accept evolution. Their religions are not compatible w evolution. Once you accept evolution, the entire concept of the fall of man becomes a lie, and therefore the entire premise that the religions is built upon is gone.
They're just lying to themselves.

They can still be of their faiths, not every religious person is a fundamentalist. Like how Bruce Lee began mixing the better parts of martial arts and pissed off the Kung-Fu and Karate purists. Adaptation is my faith, it's the only way we will evolve as a species, to one day become universal beings. If anything I like to think we are all god trying to pull itself back together again and our evolution is us working our way back up to god status until one day we are all on that wavelength where it all just clicks and there comes the universal A-HA! moment...

 

[longworthb]

There's always going to be people to the far right and left. I believe in god but can't stand people running around preaching about it and pretending there perfect. I do go to church. Not as often as I should though. I guess I'm kind of up In the air on the subject like many many people are. I believe there is a higher power but I also believe we have evolved through many centuries to become what we are