ephys88 and other IM evolutionists, please explain the origin of the universe

[myCATpowerlifts]

This thread is dumb

evolution doesn't explain the origin of the universe, nor the origin of life even. Only how the very first simple life forms evolved in complexity and diversified to fill every available food niche in the environment. Thats all it is. There is an unutilized food source somewhere, an animal will eventually evolve to fill that gap. Predator and prey provide evolutionary stimulus to eachother via natural selection, the weakest prey and predators do not survive. The most "fit" for that environment, and the one whose genes lead him to be successful in reproduction the most times wins. His genes spread, and eventually the entire species carries the beneficial genes of its strongest and most promiscuous members. Its that simple for the most part. You don't have to believe, read some books, it is all explained already.

Disclaimer: There is nothing in the theory of evolution that disproves god, and they need not be mutually exclusive. Believe god was the cause if you so choose, but evolution is the "how" no matter what way you want to look at it. You can believe in both.


Also the big bang doesn't explain and is not supposed to, the cause of the expansion, only what happened afterwards that lead the universe to be what it is today. There was a tremendous release of energy, that we know. This energy formed the simplest, lightest elements on the table, hydrogen and helium. These two gases condensed in various places due to their own gravity, and formed stars. In the core of stars, heavy elements were born due to the tremendous heat and pressure crushing elementary particles together. Further down the period table, even heavier elements were created when these stars went supernova, the explosion cast these heavy elements, carbon, iron, nitrogen etc. etc. out into the universe. This "star dust" collected to form rocky planets, earth, and eventually You. We are all made of elemental particles created in a supernova, probably many billions of years ago. Thats kinda cool if you ask me

FINALLY, someone gets it.

 

[Robalo]

This thread is dumb

evolution doesn't explain the origin of the universe, nor the origin of life even. Only how the very first simple life forms evolved in complexity and diversified to fill every available food niche in the environment. Thats all it is. There is an unutilized food source somewhere, an animal will eventually evolve to fill that gap. Predator and prey provide evolutionary stimulus to eachother via natural selection, the weakest prey and predators do not survive. The most "fit" for that environment, and the one whose genes lead him to be successful in reproduction the most times wins. His genes spread, and eventually the entire species carries the beneficial genes of its strongest and most promiscuous members. Its that simple for the most part. You don't have to believe, read some books, it is all explained already.

Disclaimer: There is nothing in the theory of evolution that disproves god, and they need not be mutually exclusive. Believe god was the cause if you so choose, but evolution is the "how" no matter what way you want to look at it. You can believe in both.


Also the big bang doesn't explain and is not supposed to, the cause of the expansion, only what happened afterwards that lead the universe to be what it is today. There was a tremendous release of energy, that we know. This energy formed the simplest, lightest elements on the table, hydrogen and helium. These two gases condensed in various places due to their own gravity, and formed stars. In the core of stars, heavy elements were born due to the tremendous heat and pressure crushing elementary particles together. Further down the period table, even heavier elements were created when these stars went supernova, the explosion cast these heavy elements, carbon, iron, nitrogen etc. etc. out into the universe. This "star dust" collected to form rocky planets, earth, and eventually You. We are all made of elemental particles created in a supernova, probably many billions of years ago. Thats kinda cool if you ask me

/end thread

 

[BlueJayMuscle]

I'm shocked. I didn't know any rational people still denied evolution... Haha

 

[exphys88]

I'm shocked. I didn't know any rational people still denied evolution... Haha

It's primarily a US phenomenon, and shockingly nearly half of the population is that stupid.

 

[Digitalash]

While we're having a deep discussion, as per the questions "what came before the big bang?" and "If the universe is expanding, whats outside of it?"


Well first of all you have to understand that "time" and "space" are properties of the universe. They were created at the moment of the big bang, along with all energy in the universe (and matter, as matter is just energy "trapped" or "condensed" in a sense). So you can not say what was "before" the big bang, because time literally did not exist "before", there was no "when" for anything to have happened in (or space either for that matter). Also you can not say what is outside the universe because there literally is no such thing as "space" outside of the universe. It's believed the universe (according to string theory) is actually a hyperdimensional space, or Calabi-Yau space consisting of many dimensions that fold back on themselves. The picture below is a cross section of a 3d representation of such a space, but remember your brain is not equipped to percieve more than those dimensions, there is no way to represent what such a shape would actually look like from a picture, or even to imagine it in your own brain.

Essentially what this means is that if you travel far enough in one direction in the universe, you will always end up back where you started. There is no way to escape, and no space to escape to. You will follow the curves of spacetime and eventually end up back where you started, even though the universe is expanding and NOT infinite.

Now to give you some understanding at least of how we are expanding yet there is no outside space to expand to, the theory is that the universe is almost like a pocket between two higher dimensional membranes or "branes". Think two sheets laying together, a bubble begins expanding between them. The bubble can continue to expand, even though there is actually no outside space for it to expand into, the branes warp and stretch and allow this bubble to grow. Furthermore there is a theory that the big bang was the collision of these two membranes, which ripple and fluctuate, and occasionally collide. This massive amount of energy literally creates space, time, matter etc. and a universe is born. Its possible this has happened an infinite number of times before and is right now. These other universes may literally be right next to use, and yet there is no way to reach them, as there is no "space" between them for us to travel across. It's possible you could enter a black hole, punch through space time, and exit in one of these other universes, but I think we should stop there for today

 

[exphys88]

You can also ask, "what created god?"

 

[Digitalash]

I'm not a theist but I would answer, god created time and space, he didn't have a beginning because the concept of time itself is his creation. He exists outside of time and space, and is thus not subject to the physical laws of our universe.


What came first the chicken or the egg? 10 points to whoever can answer that, if you understand evolution then its not a paradox

 

[exphys88]

I'm not a theist but I would answer, god created time and space, he didn't have a beginning because the concept of time itself is his creation. He exists outside of time and space, and is thus not subject to the physical laws of our universe.


What came first the chicken or the egg? 10 points to whoever can answer that, if you understand evolution then its not a paradox

I call that a cop out answer that allows the theist to avoid having to address the problems w their belief in god and their claim that everything had to have been created.
It's not much more of an answer than "god works in mysterious ways."

 

[Digitalash]

I call that a cop out answer that allows the theist to avoid having to address the problems w their belief in god and their claim that everything had to have been created.
It's not much more of an answer than "god works in mysterious ways."

Well its essentially what scientists believe, with a supernatural being added at the center. Occams razor of course says it works perfectly fine without him, but since by subscribing to the big bang theory you believe that time and space were created at the moment of the big bang, then "whatever" caused the big bang must therefore exist outside of time and space, since they are "its" creations. Scientists believe it was just a natural event, a consequence of the mechanics of the universe essentially, theists believe it was a conscious act of creation. At this point its a matter of choice in which you want to believe, since neither can be proven or disproven. Nothing about the theory indicates there was a supernatural and all powerful being masterminding this event, but it does leave the possibility open IMO. No sense in arguing beyond that, people will choose to believe whichever they like. If we can at least get theists to acknowledge the science of the big bang, evolution etc. I don't think it matters what they choose to believe caused it. Let people believe what they want, as long as it doesn't go against the actual known facts and scientific theories that we know to be true. If they want to expand beyond these theories that's fine with me, as long as they don't deny the facts. Just my .02

 

[fit26]

I'm not a theist but I would answer, god created time and space, he didn't have a beginning because the concept of time itself is his creation. He exists outside of time and space, and is thus not subject to the physical laws of our universe.


What came first the chicken or the egg? 10 points to whoever can answer that, if you understand evolution then its not a paradox

The answer to your question is not the answer to how everything exist. The question itself is the answer.

 

[exphys88]

Well its essentially what scientists believe, with a supernatural being added at the center. Occams razor of course says it works perfectly fine without him, but since by subscribing to the big bang theory you believe that time and space were created at the moment of the big bang, then "whatever" caused the big bang must therefore exist outside of time and space, since they are "its" creations. Scientists believe it was just a natural event, a consequence of the mechanics of the universe essentially, theists believe it was a conscious act of creation. At this point its a matter of choice in which you want to believe, since neither can be proven or disproven. Nothing about the theory indicates there was a supernatural and all powerful being masterminding this event, but it does leave the possibility open IMO. No sense in arguing beyond that, people will choose to believe whichever they like. If we can at least get theists to acknowledge the science of the big bang, evolution etc. I don't think it matters what they choose to believe caused it. Let people believe what they want, as long as it doesn't go against the actual known facts and scientific theories that we know to be true. If they want to expand beyond these theories that's fine with me, as long as they don't deny the facts. Just my .02

I don't disagree w anything here, I'm just pointing out that if a theist is convinced that everything needs a creator, they run into the problem of god needing a creator too-and so on and so on. But, these kinds of problems don't phase someone w strong faith; much like a Muslim who is convinced that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse.

 

[Digitalash]

Creationists: Evolution happened and still is happening, the big bang started the universe, whether you like it or not these things are true and they aren't going anywhere. Neither of these theories says anything about god not existing. In fact if there were a god, and he had to create a universe and an intelligent species, these are ingenious ways of doing so. If I had to invent life and make sure it survived and continued to become more complex, and eventually self-aware, I would certainly choose evolution/natural selection as the process. Perhaps god did not intend to make "humans", but only to create an intelligent and fully conscious species. What they looked like didn't matter so much, it was their consciousness that mattered, so that they may understand that they are creations of god and fully appreciate their relationship with him. So it was only required to set in motion a spark of life on a habitable planet, with dna as its blueprint, survival and reproduction its only prime directives. Given enough time and some fortuitous events intelligent life would eventually evolve in one form or another. I'm not saying this is what I believe, just offering a different perspective. Either way evolution especially is an incredibly important theory to understanding so many things. From the mutation of viruses, to human emotions and instinct, to the structure and behaviors of every living thing on the planet. It would be foolish to completely ignore such an important part of science because you think it conflicts with your religion. I would just like to stress that you CAN believe in both, not many "evolutionists" are out to disprove your god and tell you your beliefs are wrong. We simply want to show you that it is true, the facts are all there and its too much to deny. It explains too many things, and has stood the test of time. Evolution is not a fad and it WILL not be going anywhere anytime soon. Please just educate yourselves on it, it is an invaluable tool to understanding the world we live in, the people you interact with every day, their emotions and motives, as well as your own. Evolution happened, just accept that please, maybe God started it. I don't know. I will never say he didn't because I can not know that, it is certainly possible I guess. God isn't necessary to explain how everything evolved as it did, but if you would like to include him that is your choice and I will accept that. We can come to an agreement I believe, everyone should understand the theory of evolution. Those who choose to believe god started and guided it will be free to do so, those that believe it was a natural process can do that as well.

 

[exphys88]

Creationists: Evolution happened and still is happening

The problem is that once you accept evolution as fact, you have to accept that the biblical god is a myth and Jesus was nothing more than a man w good ideas. This is why they deny it, it means their entire life has been wasted reading a stupid book.

There are some Christians that try to make the 2 ideas compatible, but they're just grasping at straws.

The entire premise of Christianity rests on the fall of man-Adam and eve eating the fruit and therefore creating a life of sin and needing forgiveness from Jesus for all humans. If you accept evolution, you have to accept that the story of Adam and Eve is made up, Jesus is not divine and the entire christian religion becomes just a fairy tale.

 

[BlueJayMuscle]

The problem is that once you accept evolution as fact, you have to accept that the biblical god is a myth and Jesus was nothing more than a man w good ideas. This is why they deny it, it means their entire life has been wasted reading a stupid book.

There are some Christians that try to make the 2 ideas compatible, but they're just grasping at straws.

The entire premise of Christianity rests on the fall of man-Adam and eve eating the fruit and therefore creating a life of sin and needing forgiveness from Jesus for all humans. If you accept evolution, you have to accept that the story of Adam and Eve is made up, Jesus is not divine and the entire christian religion becomes just a fairy tale.

I'm a Jew (yep that's right haha) and I have a definitive belief in god and evolution... Not the same type of god described in the bible (more of a philosophical intuitive god). But I don't believe the bible recounts factual history as well. I believe it as more of a guidelines on how to live worded in allegories.

There is a healthy balance of faith and science. No need to be towards either extreme


Qualifications: I'm a phd student in biochemistry and a faithful Jew


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[bio-chem]

Why this need to make theology and science continually at war? It's not one or the other, and while we are in mortality it's not likely to be resolved. Mankind in mortality doesn't understand God, or his workings, but on a basic level. Our understanding of God, and his doings is like a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. On the flip side science is the same way. If anyone has read Origin of the Species and compared that to our understanding of evolution now it would be easy to recognize that. We are constantly learning new things in science and because of this it's constantly changing. Each has it's place in our lives. and they aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[theCaptn']

Theologists ('the church') was so threatened by science it murdered 100000's of 'heretics' over the ages.

 

[bio-chem]

Theologists ('the church') was so threatened by science it murdered 100000's of 'heretics' over the ages.

I'm talking about today. 2012 in the United States. Why the need to fight?

 

[theCaptn']

I'm talking about today. 2012 in the United States. Why the need to fight?

I guess when creationism is creeping into schools as a legit alternative to Darwinism ... There's something worth fighting for

 

[exphys88]

I'm a Jew (yep that's right haha) and I have a definitive belief in god and evolution... Not the same type of god described in the bible (more of a philosophical intuitive god). But I don't believe the bible recounts factual history as well. I believe it as more of a guidelines on how to live worded in allegories.

There is a healthy balance of faith and science. No need to be towards either extreme


Qualifications: I'm a phd student in biochemistry and a faithful Jew


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

If you use the bible as a guideline on how to live, then you're one sick and horrible person.

Explain why faith is a good thing. Why should people be encouraged to believe things that couldn't possibly be true or go against every bit of rational thinking. It's crazy to me how we've come to think that faith is a positive thing.

Faith is why Jim jones and his 900 followers are dead, why the twin towers were destroyed and why some people allow their children to die instead of seeking medical care.

 

[exphys88]

Why this need to make theology and science continually at war? It's not one or the other, and while we are in mortality it's not likely to be resolved. Mankind in mortality doesn't understand God, or his workings, but on a basic level. Our understanding of God, and his doings is like a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. On the flip side science is the same way. If anyone has read Origin of the Species and compared that to our understanding of evolution now it would be easy to recognize that. We are constantly learning new things in science and because of this it's constantly changing. Each has it's place in our lives. and they aren't mutually exclusive.

I have actually read "On the origin of species."

Christianity and science will always be at war because science had been proving that Christianity is a lie for 2000 years.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Where Science and Buddhism Meet PART 1 - YouTube

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Where Science and Buddhism Meet PART 2 - YouTube

 

[KelJu]

no one knows
why argue

Because lunatics want fantasy taught in science classrooms. Also, I don't care what crazy people believe, but they always end up trying to control my life based on their ridiculous shit. Laws are based on tall tales written by sand niggers.

 

[KILLEROFSAINTS]

if only everyone just minded there own buisness

 

[troubador]

Why this need to make theology and science continually at war?

People tend to politicize everything. For the most part science isn't really concerned with theology. The actual battles mostly come from religious people pushing their ideology. When 46% of people in the U.S. still believes in creationism we have a huge problem with education in this country. Science wouldn't be at war with religion if it wasn't continually trying to fuck up science. I wouldn't have a problem with religion if they kept it out of education and politics.

 

[Digitalash]

My littlest sister lives with my grandparents and goes to a private school, I almost fucking lost it when they told me her school doesn't teach anything at all about evolution. I would be ok with her church teaching her "creationism" if her school at least made it clear that evolution has been proven and is accepted amongst all first world countries as the explanation for life on earth, instead she's taught that evolution is "just a theory" by her science teacher who almost definitely does not understand evolution one bit....


I'm all for accepting people's religion, but when my six year old sister is being raised completely ignorant of one of the most important scientific discoveries in human history I have a problem with that. Her science teacher I'm sure tells them "some people actually believe we came from monkeys! Can you believe that LOL!" I find it completely absurd that America is letting this happen in some schools. In this day and age not understanding/believing in evolution will be a hugeee handicap if she ever decides she wants to pursue a career in science.

 

[exphys88]

Bill Nye the science guy made the point recently that creationism makes our kids stupid and creates mistrust in science.

 

[ebn2002]

Using "faith" as your rebuttal means you can stand for anything. I could claim the smurfs started the world and will save me one day, and I have the same amount of proof as you religious people. Doesn't that dissuade you at all? Fukin stupid people with their inability to think for themselves. Sorry but religion is the worst thing man ever created.

 

[theCaptn']

Using "faith" as your rebuttal means you can stand for anything. I could claim the smurfs started the world and will save me one day, and I have the same amount of proof as you religious people. Doesn't that dissuade you at all? Fukin stupid people with their inability to think for themselves. Sorry but religion is the worst thing man ever created.

Or the smartest thing created. It's a method for controlling the masses. It's like an evolution of slavery

 

[LAM]

Sorry but religion is the worst thing man ever created.

it's insidious