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The Very Best Form of Socialism?: The Pro-Slavery Roots of the Modern Left

Yes, the PICU attending doctor I am in a relationship with, who cares for children is actually a very good person and she would say the same things I do; actually she would rip into another woman a lot harder than I ever would that was being so unreasonable. Good try though LW :).

well where did you get tantrum out of a girl daydreaming about living off the land? seems an awful lot like there was a big hair someplace uncomfortable. ;)
 
My interests are many, halting progress and going back in time 150 years is not one of them. De-evolving is not a solution to energy consumption, that is backward thinking at its finest.

and that is the current conundrum we are in, simply consuming is not enough to keep the US economy healthly, it relies on over-consumption which is unsustainable with so many making so little. the debt based consumption thing from 1980-2008, well we see how that ended up. and with minimal consumption we have high unemployment and sluggish real GDP growth and that's with out the personal savings rate even really increasing.

Personal Saving Rate (PSAVERT) - FRED - St. Louis Fed
 
poisoning all our food, air, water, and land is a funny definition of progress. sometimes you do have to go back to move forward.

btw, you'd have to go back a lot further than just 150 years if we are talking eliminating ALL crude oil use. the seneca indians harvested it here in the 1400s.
 
and speculating makes that end price so nice for the average bottom rung on the food chain family trying to heat their home... whatever we come up with next will probably have the potential to be just as corrupted by greed but maybe it won't be as dirty in other ways.
 
And what driving force put this law into place? Are you so daft you can't do a simple back tracking to see the root cause for such laws lies in the battles the unions fought so YOU don't work slave hours with no benefits and paid time off, no to mention so many other benefits we currently enjoy? This blind disregard for facts is a primary reason Americans are so susceptible to influence from the media, be it progressive or conservative in nature depending on the source. Open your mind up to the fact you have been brainwashed to believe what others think is best for you when in reality that is so far from the truth.

you give unions way too much credit , but that's expected from people like yourself, lam included.
 
yes he is...he's been brainwashed into thinking that "government" can do only bad and that the "free market" solves all problems despite history, that which he learned from watching ron paul videos from youtube. he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

there you go again talking about a free market as if you know what one is.
 
My interests are many, halting progress and going back in time 150 years is not one of them. De-evolving is not a solution to energy consumption, that is backward thinking at its finest.

Yep since the rise of the petroleum industry life expectancy has doubled. Less people are dying from hunger or cold. More people have access to clean water and food. Think of the huge medical advances that wouldn't exist without petroleum. I can't stand these idealists who think they're progressive making convenient criticisms where they'll never have to suffer the consequences of the world they wish to create.
 
Yep since the rise of the petroleum industry life expectancy has doubled. Less people are dying from hunger or cold. More people have access to clean water and food. Think of the huge medical advances that wouldn't exist without petroleum. I can't stand these idealists who think they're progressive making convenient criticisms where they'll never have to suffer the consequences of the world they wish to create.

the increase in life expectancy has nothing to do with oil consumption and everything to do with the decrease in infant mortality
 
the increase in life expectancy has nothing to do with oil consumption and everything to do with the decrease in infant mortality

Oh that's right because of the water treatment facilities, hospitals, and infrastructure that is in no way supported by oil.

Mort.svg

_45899484_oil_consumption_map.gif

Yep, no correlation there. :rolleyes:
 
obviously they didn't factor abortion into those charts. :coffee:
 
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The Union Myth
Thomas J. DiLorenzo

In Human Action, Ludwig von Mises wrote that labor unions have always been the primary source of anticapitalistic propaganda. I was reminded of this recently when I saw a bumper sticker proclaiming one of the bedrock tenets of unionism: "The Union Movement: The People Who Brought You the Weekend."

Well, not exactly. In the US, the average work week was 61 hours in 1870, compared to 34 hours today, and this near doubling of leisure time for American workers was caused by capitalism, not unionism.

As Mises explained, "In the capitalist society there prevails a tendency toward a steady increase in the per capita quota of capital invested. . . . Consequently, the marginal productivity of labor, wage rates, and the wager earners? standard of living tend to rise continually."

Of course, this is only true of a capitalist economy where private property, free markets, and entrepreneurship prevail. The steady rise in living standards in (predominantly) capitalist countries is due to the benefits of private capital investment, entrepreneurship,technological advance, and a better educated workforce (no thanks to the government school monopoly, which has only served to dumb down the population). Labor unions routinely take credit for all of this while pursuing policies which impede the very institutions of capitalism that are the cause of their own prosperity.

The shorter work week is entirely a capitalist invention. As capital investment caused the marginal productivity of labor to increase over time, less labor was required to produce the same levels of output. As competition became more intense, many employers competed for the best employees by offering both better pay and shorter hours. Those who did not offer shorter work weeks were compelled by the forces of competition to offer higher compensating wages or become uncompetitive in the labor market.

Capitalistic competition is also why "child labor" has all but disappeared, despite unionist claims to the contrary. Young people originally left the farms to work in harsh factory conditions because it was a matter of survival for them and their families. But as workers became better paid?thanks to capital investment and subsequent productivity improvements?more and more people could afford to keep their children at home and in school.

Union-backed legislation prohibiting child labor came after the decline in child labor had already begun. Moreover, child labor laws have always been protectionist and aimed at depriving young people of the opportunity to work. Since child labor sometimes competes with unionized labor, unions have long sought to use the power of the state to deprive young people of the right to work.

In the Third World today, the alternative to "child labor" is all too often begging, prostitution, crime, or starvation. Unions absurdly proclaim to be taking the moral high road by advocating protectionist policies that inevitably lead to these consequences.

Unions also boast of having championed safety regulation by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) over the past three decades. The American workplace has indeed become safer over the past century, but this was also due to the forces of competitive capitalism, not union-backed regulation.

An unsafe or dangerous workplace is costly to employers because they must pay a compensating difference (higher wage) to attract workers. Employers therefore have a powerful financial interest in improving workplace safety, especially in manufacturing industries where wages often comprise the majority of total costs. In addition, employers must bear the costs of lost work, retraining new employees, and government-imposed workman?s compensation whenever there is an accident on the job. Not to mention the threat of lawsuits.

Investments in technology, from air-conditioned farm tractors to the robots used in automobile factories, have also made the American workplace safer. But unions have often opposed such technology with the Luddite argument that it "destroys jobs."

Mises was right that unions have always been a primary source of anti-capitalistic propaganda. But since he wrote Human Action, American unions have also been at the forefront of lobbying efforts on behalf of the regulation and taxation of business?of capital?that has severely hampered the market economy, making everyone, including unionists, worse off economically. The regulation of business by the EPA, OSHA, FTC, DOE, and hundreds of other federal, state, and local government bureaucracies constitutes an effective tax on capital investment that makes such investment less profitable. Less capital investment causes a decline in the growth of labor productivity, which in turn slows down the growth of wages and living standards.

In addition, slower productivity leads to a slower growth of output in the economy, which causes prices to be higher than they otherwise would be; and fewer new products are invented and marketed. All of these things are harmful to the economic well-being of the very people labor unions claim to "represent." (Incredibly, there are some economists who argue that unions are good for productivity. But if that were true, corporations would be recruiting them instead of spending millions trying to avoid unionization.)

Mises also pointed out that as business becomes more heavily regulated, business decisions are based more and more on compliance with governmental edicts than on profit-making. American labor unions continue to call for more regulation of business because, in order for them to survive, they must convince workers?and society?that "the company is the enemy." That?s why, as Mises noted, union propaganda has always been anticapitalistic. Workers supposedly need to be protected from "the enemy" by labor unions.

However, the substitution of bureaucratic compliance for profit-making decisions reduces profitability, usually with little or no benefit to anyone from the regulations being complied with. The end result is once again a reduction in the profitability of investment, and subsequently less investment takes place. Wages are stunted, thanks to self-defeating unionist propaganda. The well-paid union officials may keep their jobs and their perks by perpetuating such propaganda, but they are harming the very people who pay the dues which are used to pay their own salaries.
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=511
 
you give unions way too much credit , but that's expected from people like yourself, lam included.

Don't pretend to know me or anyone here, that's a bit of a god complex you should look into getting checked out. Second, what is it you actually do Swiper? Are you educated, were you trained on the job, serve in the military, or just your everyday grumpy blue collar blind conservative thinking he deserves more for less? Honestly, it would be nice to get some perspective on your cynicism and complete lack of trust for the facts.
 
Oh that's right because of the water treatment facilities, hospitals, and infrastructure that is in no way supported by oil.

Mort.svg

_45899484_oil_consumption_map.gif

Yep, no correlation there. :rolleyes:

I'd venture to say you're both correct, its just a matter of perspective. Surely a lower infant death rate will drive up the average life span AS will better healthcare and a healthier lifestyle in general (smoking not being seen as a good thing anymore, people using sunscreen, even as simple as better dental care). I did learn a very overwhelming fact during my economics studies and that was you can correlate near anything either to show a strong relationship or to show none at all; while things you would think are very correlated are in fact not at all. "Facts" can be made to suit the argument easily so my point is, things aren't always so cut and dry.
 
Don't pretend to know me or anyone here, that's a bit of a god complex you should look into getting checked out. Second, what is it you actually do Swiper? Are you educated, were you trained on the job, serve in the military, or just your everyday grumpy blue collar blind conservative thinking he deserves more for less? Honestly, it would be nice to get some perspective on your cynicism and complete lack of trust for the facts.

why no comment on the union myth post i made?
 

"The shorter work week is entirely a capitalist invention. As capital investment caused the marginal productivity of labor to increase over time, less labor was required to produce the same levels of output. As competition became more intense, many employers competed for the best employees by offering both better pay and shorter hours. Those who did not offer shorter work weeks were compelled by the forces of competition to offer higher compensating wages or become uncompetitive in the labor market."


 
"The shorter work week is entirely a capitalist invention. As capital investment caused the marginal productivity of labor to increase over time, less labor was required to produce the same levels of output. As competition became more intense, many employers competed for the best employees by offering both better pay and shorter hours. Those who did not offer shorter work weeks were compelled by the forces of competition to offer higher compensating wages or become uncompetitive in the labor market."



Apparently you didn't read all of it.
 
It was a law passed by congress (Fair Labor Standards Act) that made the 40 hour work week, not the unions.

A law under pressure from the unions.
 
I'd venture to say you're both correct, its just a matter of perspective. Surely a lower infant death rate will drive up the average life span AS will better healthcare and a healthier lifestyle in general (smoking not being seen as a good thing anymore, people using sunscreen, even as simple as better dental care). I did learn a very overwhelming fact during my economics studies and that was you can correlate near anything either to show a strong relationship or to show none at all; while things you would think are very correlated are in fact not at all. "Facts" can be made to suit the argument easily so my point is, things aren't always so cut and dry.

I think most people are aware correlation does not equal causation. It's really simple. The main factors in lowering infant mortality are access to clean drinking water, medical infrastructure, sanitation and immunization. That cannot exist on the large scale that it does in the U.S. without oil. Think about how much plastic is used in hospitals. The machinery used to build the hospitals runs on oil. They got there on roads made with pitch. You can't keep the infant mortality rate so low in the U.S. without using any oil and that should be obvious.
 
I think most people are aware correlation does not equal causation. It's really simple. The main factors in lowering infant mortality are access to clean drinking water, medical infrastructure, sanitation and immunization. That cannot exist on the large scale that it does in the U.S. without oil. Think about how much plastic is used in hospitals. The machinery used to build the hospitals runs on oil. They got there on roads made with pitch. You can't keep the infant mortality rate so low in the U.S. without using any oil and that should be obvious.

the US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the OECD ranked 27 out of 31.

and there doesn't seem to be any correlation between oil use per capita and infant mortality

Oil consumption per capita by country - Thematic Map - World

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
 
It's easier said than done.
Think about it.

Review this list, see how much of your stuff is on it that you could do without and get rid of all of it.


Petroleum Based Products: A Long List: Save and Conserve

[h=3]Petroleum Based Products: A Long List[/h]
First list found on Ranken-energy.com:
ammonia
anesthetics
antifreeze
antihistamines
antiseptics
artificial limbs
artificial turf
aspirin
awnings
balloons
ballpoint pens
bandages
basketballs
bearing grease
bicycle tires
boats
cameras
candles
car battery cases
car enamel
cassettes
caulking
cd player
cd's
clothes
clothesline
cold cream
combs
cortisone
crayons
curtains
dashboards
denture adhesive
dentures
deodorant
detergents
dice
diesel
dishes
dishwasher
dresses
drinking cups
dyes
electric blankets
electrician's tape
enamel
epoxy
eyeglasses
fan belts
faucet washers
fertilizers
fishing boots
fishing lures
fishing rods
floor wax
folding doors
food preservatives
football cleats
football helmets
footballs
footballs
gasoline
glycerin
golf bags
golf balls
guitar strings
hair coloring
hair curlers
hand lotion
heart valves
house paint
ice chests
ice cube trays
ink
insect repellent
insecticides
life jackets
linings
linoleum
lipstick
luggage
model cars
mops
motor oil
motorcycle helmet
movie film
nail polish
nylon rope
oil filters
paint
paint brushes
paint rollers
panty hose
parachutes
percolators
perfumes
petroleum jelly
pillows
plastic wood
purses
putty
refrigerant
refrigerators
roller skates
roofing
rubber cement
rubbing alcohol
safety glasses
shag rugs
shampoo
shaving cream
shoe polish
shoes
shower curtains
skis
slacks
soap
soft contact lenses
solvents
speakers
sports car bodies
sun glasses
surf boards
sweaters
synthetic rubber
telephones
tennis rackets
tents
tires
toilet seats
tool boxes
tool racks
toothbrushes
toothpaste
transparent tape
trash bags
tv cabinets
umbrellas
upholstery
vaporizers
vitamin capsules
water pipes
wheels
yarn
Second list found on Gasprices-usa.com:
air conditioners
ammonia
anti-histamines
antiseptics
artificial turf
asphalt
aspirin
balloons
bandages
boats
bottles
bras
bubble gum
butane
cameras
candles
car batteries
car bodies
carpet
cassette tapes
caulking
cds
chewing gum
combs/brushes
computers
contacts
cortisone
crayons
cream
denture adhesives
deodorant
detergents
dice
dishwashing liquid
dresses
dryers
electric blankets
electrician?s tape
fertilizers
fishing lures
fishing rods
floor wax
footballs
glues
glycerin
golf balls
guitar strings
hair
hair coloring
hair curlers
hearing aids
heart valves
heating oil
house paint
ice chests
ink
insect repellent
insulation
jet fuel
life jackets
linoleum
lip balm
lipstick
loudspeakers
medicines
mops
motor oil
motorcycle helmets
movie film
nail polish
oil filters
paddles
paint brushes
paints
parachutes
paraffin
pens
perfumes
petroleum jelly
plastic chairs
plastic cups
plastic forks
plastic wrap
plastics
plywood adhesives
refrigerators
roller-skate wheels
roofing paper
rubber bands
rubber boots
rubber cement
rubbish bags
running shoes
saccharine
seals
shirts (non-cotton)
shoe polish
shoes
shower curtains
solvents
spectacles
stereos
sweaters
table tennis balls
tape recorders
telephones
tennis rackets
thermos
tights
toilet seats
toners
toothpaste
transparencies
transparent tape
tv cabinets
typewriter/computer ribbons
tires
umbrellas
upholstery
vaporizers
vitamin capsules
volleyballs
water pipes
water skis
wax
wax paper

Henry Ford wanted to make his cars shell out of plastic.....thats right plastic, but guess what kind? He was working with a black dude on this...


It was plastics made from soy beans, it was un-dentable. Imagine that plus running them with diesel engines using peanut oil. We would have never gotten into these predicaments....
 
Henry Ford wanted to make his cars shell out of plastic.....thats right plastic, but guess what kind? He was working with a black dude on this...


It was plastics made from soy beans, it was un-dentable. Imagine that plus running them with diesel engines using peanut oil. We would have never gotten into these predicaments....

he was working with George Washington Carver, the peanut guy.
 
why no comment on the union myth post i made?

Because it's bullshit and you don't see facts for what they are. Why didn't you answer my question? Like I said, it would give some perspective on your cynicism. I'm not the one avoiding questions big guy, that's you.
 
Because it's bullshit and you don't see facts for what they are. Why didn't you answer my question? Like I said, it would give some perspective on your cynicism. I'm not the one avoiding questions big guy, that's you.


You probably didn't even read it and i suspect you can't even rebut its points.

And what facts am i not acknowledging?

I consider myself a libertarian. That's my perspective.
 
I consider myself a libertarian. That's my perspective.

and what are the major differences between libertarianism and laze fair capitalism?

the end result is the same, an oligarchy is formed and democracy ceases to exists. it's why no nation on the planet dare even adopt such an ideology.
 
poisoning all our food, air, water, and land is a funny definition of progress. sometimes you do have to go back to move forward.

btw, you'd have to go back a lot further than just 150 years if we are talking eliminating ALL crude oil use. the seneca indians harvested it here in the 1400s.

hey I totally agree with you but people don't understand how the population is a huge factor, it's why crops have to be genetically modified to increase yields, why chicken and cattle are injected with growth hormones, etc. there are just too many people on the planet to feed the old fashioned way.
 
poisoning all our food, air, water, and land is a funny definition of progress. sometimes you do have to go back to move forward.

btw, you'd have to go back a lot further than just 150 years if we are talking eliminating ALL crude oil use. the seneca indians harvested it here in the 1400s.

speaking of water the US has depleted almost 50% of the Ogallala Aquifer in the past 150 years buy growing crops and buy building in places where people aren't supposed to be. it's exactly this kind of hubris that is going to undue mankind in the long run because we act like children.
 
poisoning all our food, air, water, and land is a funny definition of progress. sometimes you do have to go back to move forward.

btw, you'd have to go back a lot further than just 150 years if we are talking eliminating ALL crude oil use. the seneca indians harvested it here in the 1400s.

speaking of water the US has depleted almost 50% of the Ogallala Aquifer in the past 150 years buy growing crops and from building in places where people aren't supposed to be. it's exactly this kind of hubris that is going to undue mankind in the long run because we act like children.
 
and what are the major differences between libertarianism and laze fair capitalism?

the end result is the same, an oligarchy is formed and democracy ceases to exists. it's why no nation on the planet dare even adopt such an ideology.

exactly, because the power goes to the people instead of the state. of course no county tried it. why would they want to give up power? they like controlling the peoples lives.

libertarianism is a ideology. laze fair capitalism is an economic ideology.
 
What makes you think you understand laissez-faire when you can't even be bothered to learn how to spell it?
 
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