40 year old soldier. Second Cycle. Help?

[Evil J]

Hey everyone. This is my first post here. Be kind.

I have been through one cycle already (test eth only, 13 weeks) and I had a good solid gain of 30 pounds. My body reacted pretty well to it, and since I was "Playing it safe" the first cycle, I am looking to get into a better, hopefully more effective cycle in my second one.

I am 40 Years old, 270 pounds, 6'4, mildly overweight but slimming (and yes I have heard all the "wait until you are a very low percentage body fat comments) have been training for 2 years consistently. I am not new to fitness as I used to compete as a marathon runner (only a few years ago) I am just looking to gain as much muscle mass as I can.

I am sure that my diet could use some overhaul, but while on massbuilding I try to maintain a high protein, high fat, medium carb ratio. I have another 5 weeks until the scheduled start of my next cycle and am on a major cut currently.

I was thinking of doing what seems to be a very simple and common cycle so that I can hit my goals by summer.

Goals- Lose 40 pounds (in the cutting phases this one and one more before summer)
and gain another 30 or so in 2 more bulking cycles.

In any case, here is the cycle that I was considering. I have heard some critique saying that people my age shoudn't use deca, but can't find anything to back that up.



Weeks 1-4
Dbol- 30 ml/day (on workout days, 10 in off days)
Test Eth- 500 mg/week
Deca- 200 mg/week

Weeks 5-13
Test Eth- 750 mg/week
Deca- 300 mg/week

Week 14-15
Test Eth- 500 mg/week
Deca- 200 mg/week

Week 16
Test Eth 250 mg



PCT
Week 18-20 Nolvadex 20 mg/day

I will also have Nolva on hand "just in case".

Is this a pretty good skeleton for a cycle?

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[jjpeters4]

weeks 14-15 750 test e, 400 deca
week 16 750 test e
Bro no need to taper down your doses like that
you need some caber if your gonna run deca, and for pct you need a to run at least 4 weeks of clomid something like 100/75/75/50, you can also run the nolva at 20 e.d. along with it. AND PLEASE run an a.i., either aromasin or arimidex to run at the start of your cycle all the way to the end of your pct. PLEASE read some of the stickies for more info on the compounds I listed!

 

[vannesb]

Hey everyone. This is my first post here. Be kind.

I have been through one cycle already (test eth only, 13 weeks) and I had a good solid gain of 30 pounds. My body reacted pretty well to it, and since I was "Playing it safe" the first cycle, I am looking to get into a better, hopefully more effective cycle in my second one.

I am 40 Years old, 270 pounds, 6'4, mildly overweight but slimming (and yes I have heard all the "wait until you are a very low percentage body fat comments) have been training for 2 years consistently. I am not new to fitness as I used to compete as a marathon runner (only a few years ago) I am just looking to gain as much muscle mass as I can.

I am sure that my diet could use some overhaul, but while on massbuilding I try to maintain a high protein, high fat, medium carb ratio. I have another 5 weeks until the scheduled start of my next cycle and am on a major cut currently.

I was thinking of doing what seems to be a very simple and common cycle so that I can hit my goals by summer.

Goals- Lose 40 pounds (in the cutting phases this one and one more before summer)
and gain another 30 or so in 2 more bulking cycles.

In any case, here is the cycle that I was considering. I have heard some critique saying that people my age shoudn't use deca, but can't find anything to back that up.



Weeks 1-4
Dbol- 30 ml/day (on workout days, 10 in off days)
Test Eth- 500 mg/week
Deca- 200 mg/week

Weeks 5-13
Test Eth- 750 mg/week
Deca- 300 mg/week

Week 14-15
Test Eth- 500 mg/week
Deca- 200 mg/week

Week 16
Test Eth 250 mg



PCT
Week 18-20 Nolvadex 20 mg/day

I will also have Nolva on hand "just in case".

Is this a pretty good skeleton for a cycle?

Thoughts?

Thanks

I am well over 40 and the benifits to deca is for my joints. At 200mg per week is a very low dose I would at a minimum run 300 for entire cycle. Not sure why you would want to drop dosage down at the end normally you would increase.

Dbol is also pretty low would increase to at lease 40mg ED and may want to look at NPP instead of deca since you will have lower water retetion and will also kick in much faster than Deca.

i dont even start to see the effects of deca until week 4 or 5.

As far as PCT I cruise so cannot help you much there. If you do increase deca get you an AI

 

[squigader]

The bodyfat target you want pre-cycle is somewhere under 15%. It's not that low if you lift weights and used to run marathons. It's worth getting below 15% IMO.

And damn, 30 lbs in one cycle? What was your first cycle like in terms of what you took and diet and training?

What is your planned diet for this cycle? Also, get some aromasin, you'll need it with the dbol and test.

 

[Vibrant]

Here is a proposed cycle for you:

Week 1-7 Test- 400mg
Week 8- 11 Test- 600mg
Week 12-16 Test- 800Mg
Week 1-5 Dbol 40mg/day
Week 1-15 Deca 300Mg or 400Mg

On cycle ai:
Aromasin at 12.5Mg eod or Ed, you will have to adjust depending in estrogen sides and bloat.
Caber at 0.5Mg 2x a week

Do not use nolva while using deca.

Pct starts two Weeks after last test injection:

Clomid 100/100/75/50
Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5


Also, what is your bf% right now? You have to optimally get it under 15% before you start.

 

[bb75]

Can you run nolva while taking test 400 and eq. I am waiting for my adex to show up it's a little late should be here this week I am on the start of my third week.

 

[Vibrant]

Can you run nolva while taking test 400 and eq. I am waiting for my adex to show up it's a little late should be here this week I am on the start of my third week.

Yeah, you can if you have gyno issues. You can't use nolva when running 19nors.

 

[Evil J]

weeks 14-15 750 test e, 400 deca
week 16 750 test e
Bro no need to taper down your doses like that
you need some caber if your gonna run deca, and for pct you need a to run at least 4 weeks of clomid something like 100/75/75/50, you can also run the nolva at 20 e.d. along with it. AND PLEASE run an a.i., either aromasin or arimidex to run at the start of your cycle all the way to the end of your pct. PLEASE read some of the stickies for more info on the compounds I listed!

Good info, and a lot to think about.
Don't ramp down so fast on the test.
I thought that nolva at 40/20/10 starting at 3 weeks after the last test pin was good enough for the PCT. (And keeping it on hand for the duration in case gyno symptoms arise.)

Why an AI during the cycle? This is the first that I have read of doing that.

I will certainly go back and read more stickies.

Thanks again!

 

[Evil J]

Here is a proposed cycle for you:

Week 1-7 Test- 400mg
Week 8- 11 Test- 600mg
Week 12-16 Test- 800Mg
Week 1-5 Dbol 40mg/day
Week 1-15 Deca 300Mg or 400Mg

On cycle ai:
Aromasin at 12.5Mg eod or Ed, you will have to adjust depending in estrogen sides and bloat.
Caber at 0.5Mg 2x a week

Do not use nolva while using deca.

Pct starts two Weeks after last test injection:

Clomid 100/100/75/50
Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5


Also, what is your bf% right now? You have to optimally get it under 15% before you start.

I only have a few questions, why no nolvadex while on Deca, and why isn't aromasin enough as the AI while on cycle? Most of the sides come from an excess of estrogen anyway right? So what then is the need for caber?

And then again, what would be the issue with just clomid as the PCT?

I am looking these things up but not getting answers to those specific questions.

Thank you for your help.

 

[banker23]

Dbol is also pretty low would increase to at lease 40mg ED and may want to look at NPP instead of deca since you will have lower water retetion and will also kick in much faster than Deca.

Agreed. increase dbol to at least 40 mg and run it every day. Don't take less on off days. Remember you're growing on your rest days so you want to take advantage of that.

 

[ANIMALHAUS]

Here is a proposed cycle for you:

Week 1-7 Test- 400mg
Week 8- 11 Test- 600mg
Week 12-16 Test- 800Mg
Week 1-5 Dbol 40mg/day
Week 1-15 Deca 300Mg or 400Mg

On cycle ai:
Aromasin at 12.5Mg eod or Ed, you will have to adjust depending in estrogen sides and bloat.
Caber at 0.5Mg 2x a week

Do not use nolva while using deca.

Pct starts two Weeks after last test injection:

Clomid 100/100/75/50
Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5


Also, what is your bf% right now? You have to optimally get it under 15% before you start.

Not bad, but I would continue to run the test for a couple of weeks after you stop the deca. Deca will shut you down hard.

 

[Vibrant]

I only have a few questions, why no nolvadex while on Deca, and why isn't aromasin enough as the AI while on cycle? Most of the sides come from an excess of estrogen anyway right? So what then is the need for caber?

And then again, what would be the issue with just clomid as the PCT?

I am looking these things up but not getting answers to those specific questions.

Thank you for your help.

Nolva may worsen progesterone sides/ progesterone induced gyno. caber is taken to prevent progesterone sides while on a 19-nor. here is an article on caber, so you get a better understanding on it:




Cabergoline - Dostinex


Pharmaceutical Name: Cabergoline
Drug Classification: Dopamine-Receptor Agonist
Active Life: approximately 7 days

​

Cabergoline is a drug most often medically prescribed for its ability to inhibit prolactin secretion via its action as a dopamine agonist. Used in the treatment of such diseases as Parkinson's disease (1), acromegaly (2), restless leg syndrome (3), Cushing???s syndrome (4), hyperprolactinemia (5), among others, the drug has been adopted by bodybuilders and strength athletes as a means to combat prolactin related side effects caused by certain anabolic steroids. For this purpose cabergoline is extremely effective while presenting little risk in terms of serious side effects to the health of the user when used for this purpose.

Steroid users should be concerned about excessive prolactin levels because of the side effects associated with them. Prolactin is a naturally occurring hormone primarily produced by the lactotrophs located in the pituitary gland, with a minority amount of the hormone being produced by other tissues/cells of the body. Prolactin plays a major role in lactation in most mammals including humans. It both stimulates milk production as well as inducing lobuloalveolar growth of the mammary gland. Obviously both of these side effects would be of great concern to bodybuilders and strength athletes from both a health and cosmetic standpoint. Decreased sex drive, sperm production and sexual function may also be related to elevated levels of this hormone (6, 7). In fact even in men with regular healthy levels of prolactin cabergoline can help to temporarily reduce the amount of the hormone that is secreted which leads to such advantages as an increase sex drive, improvement in sexual function (quality of erection) as well as reducing the refractory period for users (the amount of time between erections) (8).

Cabergoline works to inhibit secretion of prolactin because it is a dopamine receptor agonist. This means that it acts upon dopamine receptors in the same way as dopamine does in the body. Dopamine acts as a prolactin inhibitor by binding to receptors in the lactotrophs in the pituitary gland and signals for these to cease the synthesis and secretion of prolactin.

While dopamine exhibits an ability to inhibit the secretion of prolactin it of course has numerous other functions in the body, with cabergoline being able to mimic the action of dopamine and also performing many of these. These functions include creating a sense of wellbeing or contentment via a chemical reaction in the body, most often released during pleasurable or satisfying physical actions. It has even been shown that dopamine-receptor agonists such as cabergoline can help increase the likelihood that individuals that are quitting smoking be successful (9). Dopamine can also help improve brain function. For this reason cabergoline is sometimes prescribed to sufferers of Parkinson???s disease. For the average user however it may help in improving memory or even motor functions, although if normal dopamine levels are already being produced by the user this effect will likely be minimal at best. However the primary reason for use of cabergoline by steroid users remains for the treatment of prolactin related side effects.

The anabolic steroids that can lead to excessive levels of prolactin are primarily nandrolone and nandrolone-derived compounds. Steroids such as deca durabolan, trenbolone, and durabolan all can have this effect. For this reason users of these drugs may want to have a compound such as cabergoline in their possession to treat negative side effects related to prolactin if they should develop at any point during a steroid cycle.

A secondary factor in controlling the levels of prolactin in users of anabolic steroids is the amount of circulating estrogen in their systems. Estrogen has an apparent positive effect on the amount of prolactin produced, with the more estrogen that is produced being related to the amount of prolactin that is produced accordingly. Essentially estrogen stimulates the secretion of prolactin via the disruption of the inhibitory effect of dopamine (10). For this reason often times prolactin can be controlled by way of the reduction of estrogen levels. Use of aromatase inhibitors can be used for this purpose. However when prolactin levels reach a point where a reduction of estrogen levels does not inhibit excessive prolactin secretion enough, administration of cabergoline should be sufficient to inhibit any further overproduction.


Use/Dosing

​

Due to the extremely long active life of the drug, approximately seven days, users only have to administer their doses once or twice per week to see good results. In terms of the dosing that healthy individuals would need to use to suppress prolactin levels raised by their use of anabolic steroids, anecdotally many users report seeing their best results with dosing in the range of one half of a milligram to one and a half milligrams of cabergoline per week. This dose range should be sufficient for the majority of users but larger doses can be used as there appears to be little worry for users in terms of toxicity except at extremely high doses that would be impractical to administer unintentionally (11, 12).

Cabergoline reaches its peak plasma concentration within two to three hours if administered orally. The drug is metabolised by the liver with a relatively large amount of the drug experiencing a first pass effect (13). Users are able to take the drug with or without food; there is no impact on the absorption rate or action of the compound in either case. In healthy subjects it has been determined that the elimination half-life of cabergoline is between sixty-three and one hundred and nine hours (13). There is no reliable data on the detection time of the compound.

In terms of the duration of time that users can administer cabergoline, there is very little research that has been completed on the subject. As will be discussed in the Risks/Side Effects portion of this profile below there are some indications that there may be risk factors involved in the long term use of the drug but no definitive conclusions can be made. However, at least in terms of the short term finding, it appears that cabergoline is a relatively safe drug for use by healthy adults for long periods of time.


Risks/Side Effects

When compared to the other most popular dopamine-receptor agonist bromocriptine mesylate, cabergoline is seemingly better tolerated and at least as efficient, if not more so, at reducing prolactin levels in users (7, 14). Although bromocriptine mesylate is relatively free of any significant negative side effects users often complain of serious stomach discomfort and other additional gastrointestinal problems while taking the drug. Cabergoline has shown a far smaller propensity to produce this effect. However there are still those that find the drug causes reactions such as stomach upset, vomiting and nausea among some users but less frequently then with bromocriptine mesylate.

Due to the fact that cabergoline is a relatively new drug there is little long term research that is available that gages the long term safety of the compound. For this reason there are several sporadic reports of fairly serious ailments that could be attributed to the drug. For example there have been reports of conditions including such things as hair loss (15), inhibition of the secretion of adrenal gland hormones (16), and even heart disease (17). However none of these side effects have been reported in anyway close to being statistically significant and therefore they are not considered to be a valid concern for users.

Although for the most part cabergoline will not be used or be beneficial for women in a bodybuilding/strength athletics sense, the drug itself has been found not to be harmful to women. In fact, it has been shown that cabergoline will not negatively impact fertility in women long term or short term. There is even some evidence that use of the drug during pregnancy should not have any negative impacts (18), although this should most definitely be considered a risky undertaking for normally healthy women and should always be used in consultation with a medical doctor.



References

1. Nakatsuka A, Nagai M, Yabe H, Nishikawa N, Nomura T, Moritoyo H, Moritoyo T, Nomoto M. Effect of clarithromycin on the pharmacokinetics of cabergoline in healthy controls and in patients with Parkinson's disease. J Pharmacol Sci. 2006 Jan;100(1):59-64.

2. Selvarajah D, Webster J, Ross R, Newell-Price J. Effectiveness of adding dopamine agonist therapy to long-acting somatostatin analogues in the management of acromegaly. Eur J Endocrinol. 2005 Apr;152(4):569-74.

3. Benes H, Heinrich CR, Ueberall MA, Kohnen R. Long-term safety and efficacy of cabergoline for the treatment of idiopathic restless legs syndrome: results from an open-label 6-month clinical trial. Sleep. 2004 Jun 15;27(4):674-82.

4. Pivonello R, Ferone D, Lamberts SW, Colao A. Cabergoline plus lanreotide for ectopic Cushing's syndrome. N Engl J Med. 2005 Jun 9;352(23):2457-8.

5. Jackson J, Safranek S, Daugird A. Clinical inquiries. What is the recommended evaluation and treatment for elevated serum prolactin? J Fam Pract. 2005 Oct;54(10):897-8, 901.

6. Nickel M, Moleda D, Loew T, Rother W, Gil FP. Cabergoline treatment in men with psychogenic erectile dysfunction: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Int J Impot Res. 2006 May 18; [Epub ahead of print]

7. De Rosa M, Colao A, Di Sarno A, Ferone D, Landi ML, Zarrilli S, Paesano L, Merola B, Lombardi G. Cabergoline treatment rapidly improves gonadal function in hyperprolactinemic males: a comparison with bromocriptine. Eur J Endocrinol 1998 Mar;138(3):286-93.

8. Kruger TH, Haake P, Haverkamp J, Kramer M, Exton MS, Saller B, Leygraf N, Hartmann U, Schedlowski M. Effects of acute prolactin manipulation on sexual drive and function in males. J Endocrinol. 2003 Dec;179(3):357-65.

9. Frishman WH, Mitta W, Kupersmith A, Ky T. Nicotine and non-nicotine smoking cessation pharmacotherapies. Cardiol Rev. 2006 Mar-Apr;14(2):57-73.

10. Gillam MP, Middler S, Freed DJ, Molitch ME. The novel use of very high doses of cabergoline and a combination of testosterone and an aromatase inhibitor in the treatment of a giant prolactinoma. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Oct;87(10):4447-51.

11. Gillam MP, Fideleff H, Boquete HR, Molitch ME. Prolactin excess: treatment and toxicity. Pediatr Endocrinol Rev. 2004 Nov;2 Suppl 1:108-14.

12. Johansen SS, Karkov J. A fatal overdose of the ergot derivative cabergoline. Forensic Sci Int. 2004 Nov 10;146(1):47-51.

13. Del Dotto P, Bonuccelli U. Clinical pharmacokinetics of cabergoline. Clin Pharmacokinet. 2003;42(7):633-45.

14. Bolko P, Jaskula M, Wasko R, Wolun M, Sowinski J. The assessment of cabergoline efficacy and tolerability in patients with pituitary prolactinoma type. Pol Arch Med Wewn. 2003 May;109(5):489-95.

15. Miwa H, Kondo T. Hair loss induced by dopamine agonist: case report and review of the literature. Parkinsonism Relat Disord. 2003 Oct;10(1):51-2.

16. Pivonello R, Ferone D, de Herder WW, de Krijger RR, Waaijers M, Mooij DM, van Koetsveld PM, Barreca A, De Caro ML, Lombardi G, Colao A, Lamberts SW, Hofland LJ. Dopamine receptor expression and function in human normal adrenal gland and adrenal tumors. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Sep;89(9):4493-502.

17. Horvath J, Fross RD, Kleiner-Fisman G, Lerch R, Stalder H, Liaudat S, Raskoff WJ, Flachsbart KD, Rakowski H, Pache JC, Burkhard PR, Lang AE. Severe multivalvular heart disease: a new complication of the ergot derivative dopamine agonists. Mov Disord. 2004 Jun;19(6):656-62.

18. Ricci E, Parazzini F, Motta T, Ferrari CI, Colao A, Clavenna A, Rocchi F, Gangi E, Paracchi S, Gasperi M, Lavezzari M, Nicolosi AE, Ferrero S, Landi ML, Beck-Peccoz P, Bonati M. Pregnancy outcome after cabergoline treatment in early weeks of gestation. Reprod Toxicol. 2002 Nov-Dec;16(6):791-3.


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