45 minute myth

[Mr Persistent]

Right guys I want to express my opinion on the rules many of you follow in this case I'm talking about training time,

I bet if I asked all of you here how long you train in the gym for you would say 40-60 mins " and any more is a waste" or something to that effect.

Think about it tho... Most of you have come to this conclusion simply thru hearing it thru the grapevine!

Anybody who is trying to bodybuild seriously will know that bodybuilding is not a "one size fits all" sport/lifestyle.

It's about listning to your body and right now I feel I should be staying in the gym longer not every time of course but 9/10 recently il do 40-60mins and although I will be fatigued I will be leaving the gym thinking I could still do another 20-30mins.

I know every ones view is different I started training 3 years ago and have not stopped sinse the day I started I fu*king love it! But yeah about lengthy of time in the gym, what do you guys think?

 

[sassy69]

First of all you have to look at whether or not your diet is supporting the time & volume of lifting in the gym. Then you have to look at your recovery. Continued lifting w/o appropriate recovery time will produce either of two things - CNS overload or become catabolic to the muscles you are trying to build. Basically there's a fine balance between overtraining and sufficient training. "More" isn't always better - your results will be based on the resources your body has available to it (recovery time, energy source, and over time, structural integrity - i.e. you aren't aggravating any weak points or potential injuries) and the use of those resources. Back in the day, I HATED taking a day off from the gym. I started lifting when I was 15, 33 years ago - excluding less time while I was in college and some time off for various surgeries or injuries and relocation for work, I've generally been in the gym all the time. I've experienced overtraining during a contest prep to the point where I experienced a metabolic shutdown of sorts and gained 30 lb that took me a year to get rid of. Then as I passed age 45, I've come to discover that the balance of taking days off from the gym is between managing CNS overload while staying limber - basically I NEED to stretch every day or I can feel the stiffness setting in. But I also experience significantly more joint pain & tendonitis than I did previously - so its all part of managing the impact of the aging process on your lifting.

FWIW, since you are still sort of new to lifting, as you look to lifting as a lifetime pursuit, I'd recommend that you establish a training schedule that allows sufficient recovery time. Lifting perpetually is not make you bigger. Taking sufficient time off for recovery is what will allow your body to support an ongoing schedule of lifting. This becomes an issue as soon as you start sustaining injuries - not just the obvious ones like a pec or tri tear, but also tendonitis and other structural weakening that results from repetitive motion stuff, and relatively subtle breaks from excellent form. I developed my first case of tendonitis in my forearms back around 1992 when I was trying to push thru a plateau in the amount of weight I coudl do a cable bi extension on. I started jerking the extensions and ultimately produced tendontis that I spent > $800 on physical therapy trying to deal with because it was very painful (and even further aggravated by a lot of computer drawing I was doing using a mouse at the time). Tendonitis never really goes away - it just subsides & flairs. I've been dealing with it for 20 years now. Also what you'll find as you get older is that the structural weaknesses, tendonitis, etc. that you develop but can muscle thru when you're younger, will start to produce peripheral weaknesses later in life. Basically over time, your body will develop weird ways to work around pain, which force the peripheral muscles to do work they weren't designed for. When you hit 45, you'll see this really start to show in ways that just effing hurt because your overall body has adapted to it. It will affect your basic push/pull balance and will produce issues downstream from the original issue. Example - I rotated my pelvis from sitting cockeyed in a bad chair I used at my home office - basically stretched the muscles on one side of my hips and compressed the other side. This produced some really painful lower back problems and 10 years I'm dealing w/ an extremely tight IT band on one side. This imbalance propagates to how I walk, how I lift, and honestly, even how I tend to sleep to be comfortable. What is that going to do to me when I'm 70? I don't think I want to know...

Basically I'm saying establish good habits now that will allow you to support a lifetime of solid lifting and ongoing progress instead of leaving you w/ a lesser quality of life later on when your body won't be able to just muscle thru the little stuff. It will humble you how much that matters when you hit middle age. You don't want to be the guy at age 50 who needs a hip replacement or has a muscle holding on by a string because you've had so many pulls and tears.

The guidance of 45-60 min in the gym is just the summary of all the above. It is generally a decent representation of how much time is needed to sufficiently exercise your muscle groups du jour and then allow them to recover. I generally need more time for legs but overall, if I go past 45-60 min, I start to notice a cold sweat wash over me - basically I've consumed all my available energy source and I'm now experiencing low blood sugar. Good time to stop. To your point, absolutely you want to listen to your body, but there are larger cycles of use & recovery than just the immediate "how I feel now". It is better to give scheduled recovery periods to allow your body to recover and then go back again, than hitting it hard for a long period of time until you hit something like CNS overload or injuries start to appear and your body basically starts saying "Fuck you -we ARE taking time off now because I'm going to make you so sick that you can't get out of bed w/o puking". And if you decide you need to push harder because you are noticing reduced performance (basically you've passed peak return on investment and now experiencing negative returns), then you're really just going to end up completely burning out or producing a really big injury that will put you out of commission for a while, may require surgery, and will leave you compromised for the rest of your life.

 

[c4x]

Thanks for handling that sassy.

 

[heavylifting1]

Thank you sassy!

 

[Ichigo]

Sassy, you are right on point! Thanks.

 

[Dr.G]

some people tend to recover faster than others and this recovery time can vary a lot...just listen to your body. when i was young i had long training sessions that could extend 90 minutes and sometimes 120 minutest but i have exceptional recovery time. now as i got older i feel much more results with a workout anyway between 40-70 minutes for 2 to 3 muscle groups.
experience will tell you where is that fine line between training to the max and overtraining.

 

[Mr Persistent]

Thanks for the reply sassy, seems like you've been through quite alot if injurys/strains ect..

Funnily enough for the past 5 months I have not been able to train my shoulders or chest,well
I could do seated dumbell press and military press the pressing movement wasnt a problem it was with raises the pain occurred! First injury of my lifting life! I'm sure it was from benching heavy as I couldn't even bench the bar with zero weight without pain! That was up untill 2 weeks ago ive trained chest twice sinse then and have been going light on raises finally! I was able to bench 100kg for 7 reps yesterday, before I could get 12 reps! My maximum bench was 120kg for 3 reps then 1 assisted and I tried 140kg(that's my goal on bench) and got the bar about a inch away from Beeing a full rep but couldn't lock it out!

My injury however was weird I never felt any discomfort in the gym I remember haveing a popping type feeling when doing raises tho It was t sore but looking back I shouldn't if kept going! Dam that high testosterone level!

But I understand what you are saying about overtraining frying your CNS ect I'm 24 about to turn 25 in a few months and yeah first year I trained I would be In there 7 days a week almost only took breaks when I had to ect, gong out with friends or family for the day ect, but generally speaking i got well and truely hooked the moment I joined a gym and havnt looked back.

Now tho I rest according to how I feel for instance yesterday was chest and the day before was legs, and I today I'm a bit sore so for really feel like going doing deadlifts and stuff just common sense if u ask me can't train the biggest muscle groups back to back or ur asking for ur CNS to be fried! il tale a day maybe 2 depending on how I feel.

But my OP was more about staying longer in the gym iv always been of the impression a hour is enough blah but iv kind of plataued and I know diet is important and recovery but I can have a really good and heavy (Wht I consider heavy) session for a hour and then leave but as I'm
Leaving I'm thinking iv still got more in the tank! Not all the time
But iv noticed it a few times!

I know you should stimulate not enialate but I can't help feeling somedays I should be inialateing certain muscles and overtraining them on purpose not for the sake of overtraining but to create a better mind muscle connection?!

Like we all agree it boils down to how your body feels and thts how it feels some days!

Resting is when you grow I know this that's why I enjoy taking the time of after hard workout and feeding my muscles nutrients letting them recover iv learned to love my rest days

 

[Mr Persistent]

And dr.G thanks for reply mate!

Now for some reason your both drifting towards recovery time ect I really do understand the concept after all you grow when you rest and not in the gym!

Even if I was one of the unlucky ones who took longer to recover then normal I still want to train longer then I have been on the gym even if that means taking a extra day off to recover u get me?

 

[Ted Shred]

Interesting thread. I loved Sassy's post.

But I actually thought the whole "45-minute" thing (I'd actually heard it was an hour) was in relation to your body going catabolic after a certain length of time working out, and not necessarily in relation to just recovery. I know I've read that a number of times; is there not some degree of truth to that idea?

 

[Dr.G]

And dr.G thanks for reply mate!

Now for some reason your both drifting towards recovery time ect I really do understand the concept after all you grow when you rest and not in the gym!

Even if I was one of the unlucky ones who took longer to recover then normal I still want to train longer then I have been on the gym even if that means taking a extra day off to recover u get me?

you are welcome! i understand you perfectly, you can develop a mental addiction and a need to be in the gym for a longer time ...i have been there...just listen to your body and rest well in between workouts and most of all enjoy your life do not let the gym take you away from other activities, family and friends

 

[PushAndPull]

But I actually thought the whole "45-minute" thing (I'd actually heard it was an hour) was in relation to your body going catabolic after a certain length of time working out, and not necessarily in relation to just recovery. I know I've read that a number of times; is there not some degree of truth to that idea?

I don't believe it. I've worked construction for a few years when I was younger and there were plenty of times when we basically lifted hard for hours. I never noticed myself or anyone else losing size. If anything the smaller guys got bigger and the bigger guys stayed big. Injury is the main concern, not losing size.

 

[sassy69]

Thanks for the reply sassy, seems like you've been through quite alot if injurys/strains ect..

Funnily enough for the past 5 months I have not been able to train my shoulders or chest,well
I could do seated dumbell press and military press the pressing movement wasnt a problem it was with raises the pain occurred! First injury of my lifting life! I'm sure it was from benching heavy as I couldn't even bench the bar with zero weight without pain! That was up untill 2 weeks ago ive trained chest twice sinse then and have been going light on raises finally! I was able to bench 100kg for 7 reps yesterday, before I could get 12 reps! My maximum bench was 120kg for 3 reps then 1 assisted and I tried 140kg(that's my goal on bench) and got the bar about a inch away from Beeing a full rep but couldn't lock it out!

My injury however was weird I never felt any discomfort in the gym I remember haveing a popping type feeling when doing raises tho It was t sore but looking back I shouldn't if kept going! Dam that high testosterone level!

But I understand what you are saying about overtraining frying your CNS ect I'm 24 about to turn 25 in a few months and yeah first year I trained I would be In there 7 days a week almost only took breaks when I had to ect, gong out with friends or family for the day ect, but generally speaking i got well and truely hooked the moment I joined a gym and havnt looked back.

Now tho I rest according to how I feel for instance yesterday was chest and the day before was legs, and I today I'm a bit sore so for really feel like going doing deadlifts and stuff just common sense if u ask me can't train the biggest muscle groups back to back or ur asking for ur CNS to be fried! il tale a day maybe 2 depending on how I feel.

But my OP was more about staying longer in the gym iv always been of the impression a hour is enough blah but iv kind of plataued and I know diet is important and recovery but I can have a really good and heavy (Wht I consider heavy) session for a hour and then leave but as I'm
Leaving I'm thinking iv still got more in the tank! Not all the time
But iv noticed it a few times!

I know you should stimulate not enialate but I can't help feeling somedays I should be inialateing certain muscles and overtraining them on purpose not for the sake of overtraining but to create a better mind muscle connection?!

Like we all agree it boils down to how your body feels and thts how it feels some days!

Resting is when you grow I know this that's why I enjoy taking the time of after hard workout and feeding my muscles nutrients letting them recover iv learned to love my rest days

Altho training can be a very liberating and emotionally relieving experience when you're really ready to just kill it - but I guess just keep things in perspective - unless you're a perpetual motion machine (which doesn't exist), there's a practical limit to what your body can support over time and secret is to pay attention to that - those larger time cycles - in order to allow continued growth & progress w/o burnout.

I think a great approach that brings these larger cycles to light is the 5x5 progression -- read up on periodization - where there are heavy phases where you get to lift like a muthafugga, and then scheduled deload times where you still lift but at lower weights to allow CNS recovery - and then when you go back to the next build phase, you should see serious increase - instead of trying to forever see bigger results and then hit that wall.

To the whole point of how long for any given day in the gym - that's a balance of your drive that day, but also how you spend that time. Basically looking at overall volume - where that volume is made up of weight, rep, speed & intensity. And then of course, what your fueling that day will actually support before you hit that point of low blood sugar. That's your body basically saying "I"m done".

 

[LAM]

you also have to take into account if the person is training natural or on AAS. it's almost impossible to over-train on gear because of the way high doses of androgens effect the CNS and block cortisol on the AR receptors.

 

[sassy69]

you also have to take into account if the person is training natural or on AAS. it's almost impossible to over-train on gear because of the way high doses of androgens effect the CNS and block cortisol on the AR receptors.

Then you add a different cycle into the picture managing your "on' vs your "off" / PCT phases. And your overall health. That sorta goes back to taking the long view of things. Just like you're going to get better, more sustainable results if you look at how you want to proceed over time w/ periodization and phases of growth and recovery - you need to do that w/ the drugs too. As a young person, either natural or not, its still important to spend the time to learn & understand the "art" of lifting and not just "getting fucking big" and looking at things only as a random day-to-day 'how I feel' approach.

I keep thinking of this one guy I used to train with. Big guy w/ a big personality and basically his approach was "UP THE DOSE!" on everything he did. The problem is he's a big watery ball of blood pressure. He managed to blow his back out recently and likes to pop anadrols like PEZ. Its great to see people accomplish their goals, but its agony watching someone throw away their health because they can't manage the need to cycle things to let his body accommodate the stress of the drugs and always believes more is better. It will probably kill him. He's 2 years younger than I am.

 

[LAM]

that's the way I learned but then again I'm old school and closer to 50 then 40. shit I didn't even do my first cycle until I had about 16 years of training under my belt and was 6'0 250 lbs. I hit a "real" plateau in my late 30's which is when I first started to use gear. many guys start way to young and they never really learn all the hard-knocks of training and dieting. but we do leave in a society of instant gratification here in the US.

learning periodization as you stated is essential for those want to make resistance training a life long endeavor. the guys that I grew up with that never took dieting and training seriously looked the same after 15 years in the gym which should be near impossible but we all see it happen too frequently.

sucks about your old partner. guys like him usually get hurt then end up dropping out and chunking up big time.

 

[Mr Persistent]

Thanks sasssssy I'm going to start the 5x5 routine next month and I forgot to say I'm taking prop and tren a! Sorry to miss that out :/

 

[sassy69]

Thanks for the reply sassy, seems like you've been through quite alot if injurys/strains ect..

Funnily enough for the past 5 months I have not been able to train my shoulders or chest,well
I could do seated dumbell press and military press the pressing movement wasnt a problem it was with raises the pain occurred! First injury of my lifting life! I'm sure it was from benching heavy as I couldn't even bench the bar with zero weight without pain! That was up untill 2 weeks ago ive trained chest twice sinse then and have been going light on raises finally! I was able to bench 100kg for 7 reps yesterday, before I could get 12 reps! My maximum bench was 120kg for 3 reps then 1 assisted and I tried 140kg(that's my goal on bench) and got the bar about a inch away from Beeing a full rep but couldn't lock it out!

My injury however was weird I never felt any discomfort in the gym I remember haveing a popping type feeling when doing raises tho It was t sore but looking back I shouldn't if kept going! Dam that high testosterone level!

But I understand what you are saying about overtraining frying your CNS ect I'm 24 about to turn 25 in a few months and yeah first year I trained I would be In there 7 days a week almost only took breaks when I had to ect, gong out with friends or family for the day ect, but generally speaking i got well and truely hooked the moment I joined a gym and havnt looked back.

Now tho I rest according to how I feel for instance yesterday was chest and the day before was legs, and I today I'm a bit sore so for really feel like going doing deadlifts and stuff just common sense if u ask me can't train the biggest muscle groups back to back or ur asking for ur CNS to be fried! il tale a day maybe 2 depending on how I feel.

But my OP was more about staying longer in the gym iv always been of the impression a hour is enough blah but iv kind of plataued and I know diet is important and recovery but I can have a really good and heavy (Wht I consider heavy) session for a hour and then leave but as I'm
Leaving I'm thinking iv still got more in the tank! Not all the time
But iv noticed it a few times!

I know you should stimulate not enialate but I can't help feeling somedays I should be inialateing certain muscles and overtraining them on purpose not for the sake of overtraining but to create a better mind muscle connection?!

Like we all agree it boils down to how your body feels and thts how it feels some days!

Resting is when you grow I know this that's why I enjoy taking the time of after hard workout and feeding my muscles nutrients letting them recover iv learned to love my rest days

Ironically in 33 years of lifting, the only literal injury I've ever had was when a friend accidentally pushed a 25 lb plate off a peg and it dropped 3 ft straight on my big toe. A centimeter over and I'd have nerve damage, but luckily just broke the tip of the toe. As I look back, I've had my shoulder & knee MRI'd at least once - both times was due to some pop in the gym and ultimately some bursitis. The issues I've got now are the sum of my natural push / pull imbalances & mostly repeititve motion stuff (wrists / elbows). The stuff that aggravates all of it is stuff I never would've equated w/ ongoing health issues - just "life" stuff, habits, posture, etc.

Its also good to just be aware of all of this in the background of your regular training focuses.

 

[Burrn]

Thanx Sassy. yes this is a good thread. I was checking out MMA fighters and gymnasts. They train way harder and longer than we do......the body adapts I guess, to training up to 6 hours a day 5 days a week. How the heck do they do it? I suppose the contrast is the fact that we always go against heavy resistance which is so taxing to the muscles and overall body status?

 

[Dr.G]

^^ my friend was a track and field athlete (sprinter) and he trained almost every day for hours and according to him it is quite common among track athletes they just train everyday....he had some big quads and calves on him...i guess he adapted on quick recovery (he was totally natural)......and by the way it is funny that he still does have some good size on his legs although he does not train anymore besides occasional jogging, however his legs are not strong anymore they just look strong!

 

[sassy69]

Thanx Sassy. yes this is a good thread. I was checking out MMA fighters and gymnasts. They train way harder and longer than we do......the body adapts I guess, to training up to 6 hours a day 5 days a week. How the heck do they do it? I suppose the contrast is the fact that we always go against heavy resistance which is so taxing to the muscles and overall body status?

My question would also be what is the shelf-life of someone training like that? Its one thing if you compete in a sport like track - it has an "arena" of collegiate competition, Olympic competition, and after that I don't know what's available. That means the people doing it are probably somewhere in their prime between 18-30 maybe. I started lifting when I was 15. I'm 47 now, and I aspire to be lifting until either its no fun or I drool and can't sit up by myself. God willing, that will be more than 47 or more years from now. That's where there is a balance of training harder while you're younger (and "younger" can be a relative term) to establish a good base of muscle and over time develop good muscle maturity, and additionally excellent habits in form, stretching, recovery and general self-awareness of your body's response to the whole effort. And your reward for the time spent in the "early years" is a solid framework for your body to continue its aging process in, good metabolism, good mobility, good push/pull balance. The "shelf-life" of lifters can be very long and quality all the way. Its truly a study in the "in the moment" effort - and very often that immediate reward of pheramones, adrenalin rush, post workout euphoria, that "personal best" of your biggest lift to date - whatever it is that moves you. But also being able to have that over time - producing the better physique, better sense of well-being and stress management, confidence, maintained health, mobility, flexibility, strength, etc.

 

[Powermaster]

Thanx Sassy. yes this is a good thread. I was checking out MMA fighters and gymnasts. They train way harder and longer than we do......the body adapts I guess, to training up to 6 hours a day 5 days a week. How the heck do they do it? I suppose the contrast is the fact that we always go against heavy resistance which is so taxing to the muscles and overall body status?

They do it in the prime of their lives. How many fighters and gymnasts are older than 30 or 40 or 50? I could train for 2 to 3 hours twice a day when I was 25. Now at 55, I'm done at 1 hour. Beyond that I am not recovered in time for my next workout.

 

[heavylifting1]

It all comes down to what you can handle as an individual and then working on increasing it so you progress.

 

[Burrn]

Good points guys, and all you have to do is google "senior" bodybuilders and some of the oldtimers are just awesome. I've been at it for 40 years, went thru cancer and still feel great. doing the old school whole body workout 3 times a week......love to just "maintain".

 

[Dr.G]

cant workout for hours anymore and feel stiffer at my age and not as fast but i am surely still strong as ever nearly 85-90% of my overall best and as big with a bit more fat on the belly

 

[Watson]

until i learnt to rest, take days off and deload every 6-8 weeks for a week i made slow progress and spent a huge amount of time in pain (40yrs old)

since then ive made much better gains without so many nagging pulls and joint pains and lifting is back to being alot of fun again....i really used to hate the days off also

 

[LAM]

i really used to hate the days off also

that's why I always do some sort of cardio, abs, etc. on my off days so I'm constantly doing something. we get addicted to those endorphins and you just don't feel right with out that daily dose of them.

 

[Mr Persistent]

Arnold and them back in there days used to train 4 hours a day! I'm training 2 hours now when I'm on the gym and my body is loving it obviously i won't train this hard for the rest of my life but for now it feels good if I feel rundown il back of just listening to my body, I think it depends on your goals it mentality and your DIET If your like me and can literally eat anything I'm sight and still have abs then ur blessed with the high metabolism take advantage of it.

I'm not saying for everybody to train this way but my body ha adapted to "45 mins" and no longer responds well to it.. I will train maybe quads then chest then throw in some bicep or something of that nature, it's not what people would recommend but I'm loving it its got me all exited about training again.

I'm basically hitting upper ad lower every workout now... I just need to do some cardio on my days of as my cardiovascular health it terrible also being on tren isn't helping with that but even without it it's poor!


My view is this... If your training like every thee Tom dick ad Harry in the gym eating 5-6 times a day ad not growing... Guess what it's time to train longer and harder rest more and EAT MORE.


Just another journey in my bodybuilding story and like I said I'm loving training again I always have but it's reignited a fire to train harder.

 

[Mr Persistent]

I'm feeling pumped and hard and sore all the time now, just when DOMS was becoming something of a rare occasion.. I'm just thinking about my competition are they training as hard as me? Don't think so buddy lets grow... I'm of to a all you can eat buffet iv had my talapia and rice and vegetables post workout meal now time to smash some calories ohhhhh yeaaaaa

 

[LAM]

Arnold and them back in there days used to train 4 hours a day!

they all also used and abused AAS. there has never been one single natural bodybuilder in the IFBB.

 

[ItzLouGunz]

I think Sassy pretty much said it all! I've read about that myth myself and it's just like what's been said here already, everyone is different and it all depends on how "hard" you go...and if you're going hard, very intense, Im pretty sure 45 mins could possible be all some people would need to get swole!