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Afghanistan

Big Smoothy

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This thread is about the US involvement in Afghanistan.

What are the objvectives? What is "success?

Here is part 6, but it sums it up, IMO. Will post more parts if posters wants.

YouTube Video
 
My dad sends me statfor for free since he used to be in Air America. This gives a good and thoughtful analysis of our stratagy in afganistan. What is interesting is that even our CIA ( stratfor is the CIA AP news networks so to speak) feel cooporation with the non hardcore Taliban is inevitable and the key is Pakistan.

The Afghanistan Campaign, Part 1: The U.S. Strategy
Stratfor Today » February 15, 2010 | 1450 GMT


Summary
The United States is in the process of sending some 30,000 additional troops to Afghanistan, and once they have all arrived the American contingent will total nearly 100,000. This will be in addition to some 40,000 International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) personnel. The counterinsurgency to which these troops are committed involves three principal players: the United States, the Taliban and Pakistan. In the first of a three-part series, STRATFOR examines the objectives and the military/political strategy that will guide the U.S./ISAF effort in the coming years.

Editor’s Note: This is part one in a three-part series on the three key players in the Afghanistan campaign.

Analysis

The War in Afghanistan
In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, the United States entered Afghanistan to conduct a limited war with a limited objective: defeat al Qaeda and prevent Afghanistan from ever again serving as a sanctuary for any transnational terrorist group bent on attacking the United States. STRATFOR has long held that the former goal has been achieved, in effect, and what remains of al Qaeda prime — the group’s core leadership — is not in Afghanistan but across the border in Pakistan. While pressure must be kept on that leadership to prevent the group from regaining its former operational capability, this is an objective very different from the one the United States and ISAF are currently pursuing.

The current U.S. strategy in Afghanistan is to use military force, as the United States did in Iraq, to reshape the political landscape. Everyone from President Barack Obama to Gen. Stanley McChrystal has made it clear that the United States has no interest in making the investment of American treasure necessary to carry out a decade-long (or longer) counterinsurgency and nation-building campaign. Instead, the United States has found itself in a place in which it has found itself many times before: involved in a conflict for which its original intention for entering no longer holds and without a clear strategy for extricating itself from that conflict.

This is not about “winning” or “losing.” The primary strategic goal of the United States in Afghanistan has little to do with the hearts and minds of the Afghan people. That may be an important means but it is not a strategic end. With a resurgent Russia winning back Ukraine, a perpetually defiant Iran and an ongoing global financial crisis — not to mention profound domestic pressures at home — the grand strategic objective of the United States in Afghanistan must ultimately be withdrawal. This does not mean total withdrawal. Advisers and counterterrorism forces are indeed likely to remain in Afghanistan for some time. But the European commitment to the war is waning fast, and the United States has felt the strain of having its ground combat forces almost completely absorbed far too long.

To facilitate that withdrawal, the United States is trying to establish sustainable conditions — to the extent possible — that are conducive to longer-term U.S. interests in the region. Still paramount among these interests is sanctuary denial, and the United States has no intention of leaving Afghanistan only to watch it again become a haven for transnational terrorists. Hence, it is working now to shape conditions on the ground before leaving.

Immediate and total withdrawal would surrender the country to the Taliban at a time when the Taliban’s power is already on the rise. Not only would this give the movement that was driven from power in Kabul in 2001 an opportunity to wage a civil war and attempt to regain power (the Taliban realizes that returning to its status in the 1990s is unlikely), it would also leave a government in Kabul with little real control over much of the country, relieving the pressure on al Qaeda in the Afghan-Pakistani border region and emboldening parallel insurgencies in Pakistan.

The United States is patently unwilling to commit the forces necessary to impose a military reality on Afghanistan (likely half a million troops or more, though no one really knows how many it would take, since it has never been done). Instead, military force is being applied in order to break cycles of violence, rebalance the security dynamic in key areas, shift perceptions and carve out space in which a political accommodation can take place.


In terms of military strategy, this means clearing, holding and building (though there is precious little time for building) in key population centers and Taliban strongholds like Helmand province. The idea is to secure the population from Taliban intimidation while denying the Taliban key bases of popular support (from which it draws not only safe haven but also recruits and financial resources). The ultimate goal is to create reasonably secure conditions under which popular support of provincial and district governments can be encouraged without the threat of reprisal and from which effective local security forces can deploy to establish long-term control.

The key aspect of this strategy is “Vietnamization” — working in conjunction with and expanding Afghan National Army (ANA) and Afghan National Police (ANP) forces to establish security and increasingly take the lead in day-to-day security operations. (The term was coined in the early 1970s, when U.S. President Richard Nixon drew down the American involvement in Vietnam by transitioning the ground combat role to Vietnamese forces.) In any counterinsurgency, effective indigenous forces are more valuable, in many ways, than foreign troops, which are less sensitive to cultural norms and local nuances and are seen by the population as outsiders.

But the real objective of the military strategy in Afghanistan is political. Gen. McChrystal has even said explicitly that he believes “that a political solution to all conflicts is the inevitable outcome.” Though the objective of the use of military force almost always comes down to political goals, the kind of campaign being conducted in Afghanistan is particularly challenging. The goal is not the complete destruction of the enemy’s will and ability to resist (as it was, for example, in World War II). In Afghanistan, as in Iraq, the objective is far more subtle than that: It is to use military force to reshape the political landscape. The key challenge in Afghanistan is that the insurgents — the Taliban — are not a small group of discrete individuals like the remnants of al Qaeda prime. The movement is diffuse and varied, itself part of the political landscape that must be reshaped, and the entire movement cannot be removed from the equation.
At this point in the campaign, there is wide recognition that some manner of accommodation with at least portions of the Taliban is necessary to stabilize the situation. The overall intent would be to degrade popular support for the Taliban and hive off reconcilable elements in order to further break apart the movement and make the ongoing security challenges more manageable. Ultimately, it is hoped, enough Taliban militants will be forced to the negotiating table to reduce the threat to the point where indigenous Afghan forces can keep a lid on the problem with minimal support.

Meanwhile, attempts at reaching out to the Taliban are now taking place on multiple tracks. In addition to efforts by the Karzai government, Washington has begun to support Saudi, Turkish and Pakistani efforts. At the moment, however, few Taliban groups seem to be in the mood to talk. At the very least they are playing hard to get, hinting at talks but maintaining the firm stance that full withdrawal of U.S. and ISAF forces is a precondition for negotiations.
The current U.S./NATO strategy faces several key challenges:

For one thing, the Taliban are working on a completely different timeline than the United States, which — even separating itself from many of its anxious-to-withdraw NATO allies — is poised to begin drawing down forces in less than 18 months. While this is less of a fixed timetable than it appears (beginning to draw down from nearly 100,000 U.S. and nearly 40,000 ISAF troops in mid-2011 could still leave more than 100,000 troops in Afghanistan well into 2012), the Taliban are all too aware of Washington’s limited commitment.

Then there are the intelligence issues:

One of the inherent problems with the Vietnamization of a conflict is operational security and the reality that it is easy for insurgent groups to penetrate and compromise foreign efforts to build effective indigenous forces. In short, U.S./ ISAF efforts with Afghan forces are relatively easy for the Taliban to compromise, while U.S./ISAF efforts to penetrate the Taliban are exceedingly difficult.
U.S. Maj. Gen. Michael Flynn, the top intelligence officer in Afghanistan who is responsible for both ISAF and separate U.S. efforts, published a damning indictment of intelligence activity in the country last month and has moved to reorganize and refocus those efforts more on understanding the cultural terrain in which the United States and ISAF are operating. But while this shift will improve intelligence operations in the long run, the shake-up is taking place amid a surge of combat troops and ongoing offensive operations. Gen. David Petraeus, head of U.S. Central Command, and Gen. McChrystal have both made it clear that the United States lacks the sophisticated understanding of the various elements of the Taliban necessary to identify the potentially reconcilable elements. This is a key weakness in a strategy that ultimately requires such reconciliation (though it is unlikely to disrupt counterterrorism and the hunting of high-value targets).
The United States and ISAF are also struggling with information operations (IO), failing to effectively convey messages to and shape the perceptions of the Afghan people. Currently, the Taliban have the upper hand in terms of IO and have relatively little problem disseminating messages about U.S./ISAF activities and its own goals. The implication of this is that, in the contest over the hearts and minds of the Afghan people, the Taliban are winning the battle of perception.

The training of the ANA and ANP is also at issue. Due to attrition, tens of thousands of new recruits are necessary each year simply to maintain minimum numbers, much less add to the force. Goals for the size of the ANA and ANP are aggressive, but how quickly these goals can be achieved and the degree to which problems of infiltration can be managed — as well as the level of infiltration that can be tolerated while retaining reasonable effectiveness — all remain to be seen. In addition, loyalty to a central government has no cultural precedent in Afghanistan. The lack of a coherent national identity means that, while there are good reasons for young Afghan men to join up (a livelihood, tribal loyalty), there is no commitment to a national Afghan campaign. There are concerns that the Afghan security forces, left to their own devices, would simply devolve into militias along ethnic, tribal, political and ideological lines. Thus the sustainability of gains in the size and effectiveness of the ANA and ANP remains questionable.

This strategy also depends a great deal on the government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai, over which U.S. Ambassador Karl Eikenberry has expressed deep concern. The Karzai government is widely accused of rampant corruption and of having every intention of maintaining a heavy dependency on the United States. Doubts are often expressed about Karzai’s intent and ability to be an effective partner in the military-political efforts now under way in his country.

While the United States has already made significant inroads against the Taliban in Helmand province, insurgents there are declining to fight and disappearing into the population. It is natural for an insurgency to fall back in the face of concentrated force and rise again when that force is removed, and the durability of these American gains could prove illusory. As Maj. Gen. Flynn’s criticism demonstrates, the Pentagon is acutely aware of challenges it faces in Afghanistan. It is fair to say that the United States is pursuing the surge with its eyes open to inherent weaknesses and challenges. The question is: Can those challenges be overcome in a war-torn country with a long and proven history of insurgency?

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20100214_afghanistan_campaign_special_series_part_1_us_strategy
 
.....feel cooporation with the non hardcore Taliban is inevitable and the key is Pakistan.

Thanks for the info BDWoman.

And upper-levels Generals have testified before Congress that Al-Qaeda is no longer in Afghanistan.

With 12 Pushtuns in Afghanistan and many in Pakistan, I don't think "fighting" can really be succesful.

The US is also in the Helmund proving in the large Opium Poppy growing region. Not only fighting the Pushtuns, but interfering with their economics.

Not good, for PR.
 
This is one part of a great movie about the military industry,


YouTube - Why We Fight (4 of 10)

Number five is great watch after this one.

It is hard for me to even figure what is justified, real, or necessary when so many people with so much power have such a vested interest in waging war for purely economic reasons.

I highly suggest watching all ten parts of this movie.
 
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nation is building is a must....hunting AQ was only one piece of the pie, albeit a large piece. We've done the search and destroy route in Afghan before against the Soviets and look what the end result was.

Plus, there is a strategic reasoning behind maintaining certain troop levels and bases in the region...well beyond the scope of the Taliban.
 
Spaullba, thanks for that segment on the MIC.

Ivanry. I understand you're whole post below, except for the portion in bold.

nation is building is a must....hunting AQ was only one piece of the pie, albeit a large piece. We've done the search and destroy route in Afghan before against the Soviets and look what the end result was.

Is Afghanistan truly, a nation-state? To the Western world, it is. But not to the Afghans. A person from Afghanistan will say they are Afghanistani to a foreigner but they identify with the ethno-linguistic group, regional clans family blood ties, and for some, Warlords. This is where their identity lies.

I don't believe in nation-building in general because of the costs, and ultuerior motives involved. But in particular, Afghanistan is not even a nation-state in a sense of the word.

Below is what I am starting to learn, as I've started to research this topic a little bit.

Plus, there is a strategic reasoning behind maintaining certain troop levels and bases in the region...well beyond the scope of the Taliban
.
 
Not to mention the fact that it's a relatively short-hop-skip-and-jump for the foreign jihadists who have swelled the enemy numbers to move from Afghanistan to Iraq.

You watch the Iranians arm them up while they wave them through.
 
Plus, there is a strategic reasoning behind maintaining certain troop levels and bases in the region...well beyond the scope of the Taliban.

IE. The military industrial complex, US imperialism, and making money.
 
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IE. The military industrial complex, US imperialism, and making money.

You can call it imperialism, but its simply projecting power and protecting strategic interests....The US has never colonized or and never occupied a territory for an extended period of time. That was Europe's flavor.

What we typically do, is lease integral pieces of land and place bases (for logistical superiority) to control geographical choke points (Panama canal, Arabian Gulf, Melacca Straits, South Asian Sea, etc). Since we lease the land and pay the host for the rent, governments are much more likely to work with us...plus locals benefit from the all support jobs. In addition, the host receives the best defense in the history of man kind...the US military.

There been very successful examples of this in the past, Japan, Germany, France, and Kuwait. We have (had in France's case) extensive military infrastructure in all these nations, and the majority of the host nation welcomes it. The thing is, most of those nations have homogeneous populations. Countries like Iraq and Afghan are not....so only one segment minority is going to welcome us, while the majority does not. Difficult balancing act, but it has to be played. Otherwise, we just repeat what happened last time in Afghan.

Sure making money is primary motive. EVERY nation in history exploits to its advantage to make money. And sometimes, it goes too far and we screw some poor central american or south american up beyond repair...which is a total shame. There are methods to create win-win relationships even when one side gets a larger "winning" portion.

Getting to the MIC, its a powerful sector...but its not the most powerful by any means. The financial and insurance industries hold much power than the MIC. The MIC can NOT operate without funding. Many financial powerhouses will loan to both sides of the war...and they help determine the winner in some historical cases. They simply stop lending to one side, and it can no longer produce weaponry. Stalin and Hitler both addressed how banking was ruining their countries. Insurance is closely tied with the financial sector and is probably the most protected industry in the history since the middle ages. If the insurance industry tanks, it takes down the whole market and all the federal pensions with it.

**Side note** I hope most of you know that AIG manages all USG employee pension

You could also argue that big pharma is on an equal footing as the MIC. The MIC doesn't influence statutory requirements that the public MUST take their products. You want your child in school? They must get certain immunizations (some of them are still new mind you turning our kids into guinea pigs).

The MIC isn't all gloom and doom as the movie why we fight points out. I've seen the movie, and I think it brings a lot of good points forward.
  1. HAL, KBR, and logistical contractors are horrid for tax payer efficiency
  2. American culture has a naivety about why our country should go to any given war
  3. The revolving DoD-Defense sector door creates an environment for potential corruption...and occaisionally is abused

But, there are loads of dual use technologies that stem from the MIC. Like the internet that you are using right now (DARPA) or the microwave you use to cook your food (Raytheon) NASA trips to the moon (LockheedMartin ICBM-Trident research) GPS...geothermal imaging from high powered radio frequency. The list goes on and on here. Also, the jobs the MIC provide are virtually all American and can very rarely be outsourced.

Point being, it is not as cut and dry and the movie portrays...but still one worth watching
 
As opposed to all the other reasons for fighting wars such as...?

Cookies. Some of the best wars ever waged were for cookies.

I like cookies.
 
Cookies. Some of the best wars ever waged were for cookies.

I like cookies.

There has been a few that were fought for poon-tang as well. Poon being something I am also a fan of.

Sadly the scalability of poon-tang wars isn't really there. :(
 
They are there hiding, they are across the border in Pakistan. The US leaves and they are back in business. The US knows this and wont leave. Just like they haven't left Iraq like bama promised. This war must be fought to keep everything in control and kept off our soil.
 
They are there hiding, they are across the border in Pakistan. The US leaves and they are back in business. The US knows this and wont leave. Just like they haven't left Iraq like bama promised.
This war must be fought to keep everything in control and kept off our soil.

you really believe that?
 
I would think that spending even half of the money we are spending on these wars on direct security of our own borders and on our own land would make us much more secure than parading around in some country across the world will. But to each his own I guess..
 
you really believe that?

since september 11 how many US civilians have died on US soil? seems like kicking their asses on their home field is working
 
Before september 11th how many people did? You really cannot prove that the lack of a terrorist attack is due to our involvement in the ME. One can speculate, nothing more.

September 11th was an anamoly. I don't personally believe our involvement in the ME is more effective or efficient than focusing on fortifying our own borders and security at home would be.
 
Before september 11th how many people did? You really cannot prove that the lack of a terrorist attack is due to our involvement in the ME. One can speculate, nothing more.

September 11th was an anamoly. I don't personally believe our involvement in the ME is more effective or efficient than focusing on fortifying our own borders and security at home would be.

and what do we need to do to fortify our boarders? a fence maybe?
 
The USS Cole?
The four embassy bombings (killing over 200 people).
The Khobar towers?
The US training center in Saudi Arabia?

And that's just off the top of my head.


Ah what 4 attack we need to talk some more to them:jerkit:
 
The USS Cole?
The four embassy bombings (killing over 200 people).
The Khobar towers?
The US training center in Saudi Arabia?

And that's just off the top of my head.

Not one of those were in the United States, I suppose you could say embassy's are part of our country but I wasnt thinking that way. All of these would likely have been avoided if we were not such a militaristic and imperialistic country. There must be some reason we are so much more hated than any other country in the world, and I would bet it isnt completely everyone elses fault.
 
Not one of those were in the United States, I suppose you could say embassy's are part of our country but I wasnt thinking that way. All of these would likely have been avoided if we were not such a militaristic and imperialistic country.

True, but 9/11 was part of the string of events. Clinton did little in the way of making the US look strong after each of those attacks. He made us look ineffectual. Each attack was successively more brazen than the last, which culminated in 9/11.

If Bush, though superior fire power and government intelligence, showed that we weren't going to take it any more. If anyone believes that the push post-9/11 did nothing to put wrench in that series of attacks, doesn't know jack.

There must be some reason we are so much more hated than any other country in the world, and I would bet it isnt completely everyone elses fault.

Reason? It's because, contrary to what so many ass-hats want to believe, the US is the most power, most affluent, country on the planet. Bar none. That's all you have to do to be hated. Sure, we have leaders that make ass-hat decisions, but even if they were Mahatma-fucking-Ghandi, people would still hate the US. The only thing we could do is to make the world happy would be to give away all our possessions and our lands. Anything short of that isn't going to get rid of the haters. And since that's what it'll take: fuck it. We do what we have to do to make our lives better and that's it.

Never mind the fact that the US gives out more aid to the world every year than the next several countries combined. Ultimately, that effort is a waste.
 
Not one of those were in the United States, I suppose you could say embassy's are part of our country but I wasnt thinking that way. All of these would likely have been avoided if we were not such a militaristic and imperialistic country. There must be some reason we are so much more hated than any other country in the world, and I would bet it isnt completely everyone elses fault.

what the hell are you talking about? this shit happens in Spain and Germany as well as other European countries. when will people get it through their skulls that radical islam has declared war on Christianity? I don't give a damn what country you live in. this doesn't have to do with the evil American empire. what a load of BS:rolleyes:
 
I never said it didnt happen to other countries, I said it happens most in to the US. If you would take time to read the essay I posted you would see that the idea that these Islamic terrorists have declared a war on Christianity is tied to how our country has treated their own. They view our military presence in the ME (which has been going on for decades, long before they were attacking us) as a way in which Christianity and the US specifically are trying to repress them, and they believe that we have declared a war on Islam (and their country's) before they ever "declared war" on Christianity. We have had our hands in the ME for our own interests with complete disregard for the people there for decades. We have supported repressive regimes and leaders only to declare them evil and terrorists once they turned their behavior on us (ie Sadam, Osama, Iran, Castro etc). We have a military presence virtually all over the world for reasons unknown to majorities. People have been made to believe that the reasoning behind terrorists motives in the ME are completely based around religion or that they "hate freedom and democracy". This is not true, however it is very convenient for our government to shove down our throats and brainwash us into believing. The true reasons (although definitely linked to religion) are much more complex and sensical (sensical=/= justified).

Seriously read the essay, it is lengthy but it is a good read and it is not a trashing the United States or anything, actually quite the opposite.

Also, in terms of how much we give, while it is true that we give the most money total in aid. In proportion to our total GDP we give the very least out of all "developed" nations:
Foreign Aid: USA is Stingiest of the 22 Most Developed Countries


The USA claims to be, in absolute terms, the world's biggest giver and this is true. However, as a proportion of its wealth the USA gives least when compared to all 22 of the worlds' most developed countries.
“[Americans] are regularly told by politicians and the media, that America is the world's most generous nation. This is one of the most conventional pieces of 'knowledgeable ignorance'. [...For example Japan gives more even in absolute terms...] Absolute figures are less significant than the proportion of gross domestic product (GDP, or national wealth) that a country devotes to foreign aid. On that league table, the US ranks twenty-second of the 22 most developed nations. As former President Jimmy Carter commented: 'We are the stingiest nation of all'. Denmark is top of the table, giving 1.01% of GDP, while the US manages just 0.1%. The United Nations has long established the target of 0.7% GDP for development assistance, although only four countries actually achieve this: Denmark, 1.01%; Norway, 0.91%; the Netherlands, 0.79%; Sweden, 0.7%. Apart from being the least generous nation, the US is highly selective in who receives its aid. Over 50% of its aid budget is spent on middle-income countries in the Middle East, with Israel being the recipient of the largest single share."
If we started caring about the world as whole and not just ourselves and if we were to adopt an isolationist approach as the founders of our country intended then we would not be hated so much and likely not be the victims of so much violence.
 
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[/INDENT]If we started caring about the world as whole and not just ourselves and if we were to adopt an isolationist approach as the founders of our country intended then we would not be hated so much and likely not be the victims of so much violence.

yea, we tried the isolationist approach up until ww1 and ww2. how did that work out? the second something goes wrong in the world every country turns to us to see what we are going to do about it. like it or not we are members of the world and we have to be involved. its the only way we are going to have an economy. thats just how it is. if my government is doing things to ensure that our goods and services have places to go and I have gas for my car, well thats what i elected them for.
 
yea, we tried the isolationist approach up until ww1 and ww2. how did that work out? the second something goes wrong in the world every country turns to us to see what we are going to do about it. like it or not we are members of the world and we have to be involved. its the only way we are going to have an economy. thats just how it is. if my government is doing things to ensure that our goods and services have places to go and I have gas for my car, well thats what i elected them for.

The idea that we saved Europe in WWII is a complete matter of ignorance on our part. Again read the essay:

World War 2: America is self glorifying?

I would rarely consider this a point of hatred, but it is enough to cause many Europeans to verbally attack USA over its own opinion on its activities during World War 2. People curse, shout and argue at great lengths with seemingly unmovable Americans, and complain bitterly that America's late arrival in the war is not something they should boast about.
It continues, for example, in the film Saving Private Ryan (based on a true story of a British expedition to rescue British prisoners), where an all-American ground force takes on Germany; whereas America sent very few soldiers into war. America only began to send men into the war against Japan after Pearl Harbour, and the numbers and aid that America put into the world are pale in comparison to the massive war efforts conducted by Russia (who crushed Germany with 20 millions of ground troops), France (for its bitter, endless and determined self defence) and the UK. The UK's air force and special forces were consistently very brave and effective (even though some of ground invasions of Germen held territory were ludicrously ill fated).
America did supply vast amounts of material goods, but it did not throw itself, or its soldiers, into combat wholeheartedly. America's most consistent aid was against the Japanese, and not until Japan attacked America directly, and even then America eventually resorted to the massively indiscriminate nuclear bombs rather than "waste" men on resolute Japan.
The USA appears to be very self-glorifying, and there are multiple generations in the UK, France and Europe who upset and angry at America's rewriting of history. Russia's men, France's entire population, and UK's air force, were the principal opponents of Germany, aided by American equipment (which for example was loaned and leased to the USSR, not merely given), for which the allies were grateful, but not tricked that the USA did not have its own interests at heart, like all countries in the ideologically-charged political atmosphere of the time. USAs entry to the war was forced, not chosen, their motives were self-defence not world-wide good such as was the case with UK, and their effort was slow and half-hearted, public opinion only turned in favour of the war at a very late date.
???In his war memoirs Churchill boasted that only in July 1944 did the British Empire yield to the United States in the number of divisions engaging the enemy. [...]The British and the American effort was dwarfed by the Soviets, who were then engaging about 70 per cent of all German divisions, something Churchill neglected entirely to mention.??? Alex Danchev (1994) in the "Oxford History of the British Army (1994)18
There is an element of misunderstanding here, as Europeans consider World War 2 to be principally France, Europe, UK (with late American aid), Russia versus Germany, mostly forgetting about Japan. Whereas many American's will rightly remember Pearl Harbour and the Japanese more prominently, and probably give the combat in the Indonesian islands and the Pacific more importance than Europeans do
.
Country Casualties
Russia-20 000 000 China-10 000 000 to 15 000 000 Germany & Japan-6 500 000inc. 1 000 000 German civilians Bengal-1 500 000(mostly indirect in 1943) Yugoslavia-1 300 000 Britain + colonials-620 000 Italy-500 000 France-500 000 Hungary-350 000approx. Poland-350 000approx. Romania-350 000approx. United States-300 000
???The Soviet economy had suffered enormous devastation. [...] The death of an estimated 20 million [Soviets] is an index of the enormous costs of the war to the Soviets. Although the United States had suffered some 300,000 casualties, the ratio of Soviet to American war deaths was about seventy to one.??? "American Foreign Policy" by Kegley & Wittkopf (1987)
The Final Truth is that without any of the allies, the war would have been lost. without material aid from the USA, Russia and the UK would have taken many more years to finally defeat Germany - if at all. USA bombers and UK fighters (Battle of Britain) were the only serious returns we made on Germany other than Russian ground forces. The much repeated phrase that "USA saved Europe" is very much untrue, and completely dismissive of the intense war that actually occurred far from the USA and for years without USA involvement. Russia saved Europe, so did the UK, so did France and the other allies... for any country to claim that it is more of a benefactor than the others is untrue and shows an emotionally disturbing lack of empathy. I would reckon that historically only the poor, suppressed Russian civilians and soldiers could claim to have saved anyone.19
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And I completely agree that we need to be a part of the world. However I guess our definitions of it are different. To me being a part of the world does not mean policing it or having a military presence everywhere. Nor does it mean completely disregarding the UN, national treatise or agreements because they inconveniance our agenda.
 
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