Afghanistan

[ZECH]

On a side note........maybe some of the training I have had to respond to incidents and things I have been taught about these groups lead me to believe it. But the evidence I have seen is pretty damn convincing. And that is having an open mind.........

 

[Spaullba]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I believe that spending billions of dollars in homeland security would be money better spent than occupying their country is (and less lives lost). Many would also argue that they would not be attacking us if we did not have such a massive military presence in their country, even before 9/11.

 

[DOMS]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I believe that spending billions of dollars in homeland security would be money better spent and less lives lost than occupying their country would be.

Trying to bring democracy to the Middle East is useless. It's not going to happen. We should just kill who we need to kill and then go home.

Many would also argue that they would not be attacking us if we did not have such a massive military presence in their country, even before 9/11.

And "many" would be morons. They hated the US even before the war started in 1990. They're just getting better at killing people.

 

[Spaullba]

We were involved in the ME way before 1990. So it makes sense the animosity to go back before then. Goes all the way back to the 50s when we fucked up Iran's government (as I am sure you know)... I take it you believe the theory that certain Muslims just hate Christianity? This may be somewhat true, but it is because of how Christian nations have treated Muslim nations as pawns and inferiors long before they ever attacked us.

I think convincing a Christian nation that they hate us solely because of our religion is a very convenient way for the government to rally its people and get them to support whatever attrocities they intend to commit for their true agenda.

 

[Spaullba]

Trying to bring democracy to the Middle East is useless. It's not going to happen. We should just kill who we need to kill and then go home.

I completely agree.... Thats what I have been saying all along. It is not going to happen nor should we have even tried to make it happen in the first place. The idea that "anything different from ourselves is wrong"' has been the culprit of pretty much all hatred and wars in history. Let other people run their countries how they want to.

And if as a global community we feel we need to get involved somewhere, do it in conjunction with the UN not on some Rambo world police shit.

 

[bio-chem]

and thats where the whole argument goes off the track. the UN doesn't have any type of moral compass. The UN is the most ineffective organized body in the history of the world

 

[Spaullba]

It is ineffective because countries like our own show complete disregard for their authority and put their own agenda first.

 

[DOMS]

We were involved in the ME way before 1990. Goes all the way back to the 50s when we fucked up Iran's government... I take it you believe the theory that certain Muslims just hate Christianity? This may be somewhat true, but it is because of how Christian nations have treated Muslim nations as pawns and inferiors long before they ever attacked us.

Are you kidding? It goes all the way back to the Crusades, maybe even earlier. It doesn't matter though, there's is a violent fucking culture. They hate just about everyone, even each other.

The Soviets weren't Christians. And the entire world was a chessboard with pawns on it, with the Soviets and the USA as the players. We had to make moves in the Middle East, all over the globe, really.

Sure, they have some valid reasons to hate us, but they have far more excuses.

I think convincing a Christian nation that they hate us solely because of our religion is a very convenient way for the government to rally its people and get them to support whatever attrocities they intend to commit for their true agenda.

Atrocities? The war with Saddam was one of the cleanest in history. Feel free to look it up.

As for making it a Muslim vs. Christian thing, that wasn't a lie. It also wasn't the major reason that Americans backed the war--It was terrorism. We'd just been hit hard by terrorist and Saddam had ties to terrorism, therefore, he had to die.

And, pray tell, what is the "true agenda"?

 

[bio-chem]

It is ineffective because countries like our own show complete disregard for their authority and put their own agenda first.

authority?

of course countries put their own agenda first. just like states put their agenda first in congress. thats how it's designed

 

[Spaullba]

As far as I know the United States was not a nation during the Crusades... I was referring to our country not Christianity. I am not religious and I identify very little with Christianity. I am talking about recent history, post-industrialized society.

And I am not making an attack on Christianity either. I am saying that you claiming that the nation of Islam is a violent hateful group of people has just as much credibility as saying that Christianity is a violent and hateful group of people.

There have been over 100,000 civilian deaths since we entered Iraq. Doesn't sound so clean to me.

The real agenda, (as I have said in multiple posts) is economically motivated.

 

[DOMS]

And if as a global community we feel we need to get involved somewhere, do it in conjunction with the UN not on some Rambo world police shit.

and thats where the whole argument goes off the track. the UN doesn't have any type of moral compass. The UN is the most ineffective organized body in the history of the world

Bio is right on. Because the UN is an international body, it's supposed to make them somehow superior? More knowledgeable? More moral?

This is the same outfit whose president's son used the Oil for Food plan to skim millions, possibly billions, for himself. The same outfit that put China on the Human Rights council, put Zimbabwe at the head of the Commission for Sustainable Development, and won't recognize any country as a terrorist state. And that's just a tiny bit of why the UN blows.

You really need to lose the idea that just because they're not us, that they're any better.

 

[Spaullba]

authority?

of course countries put their own agenda first. just like states put their agenda first in congress. thats how it's designed

Authority probably isnt the right word. But the UN would work better if people would be more willing to work for a global good versus a personal good. I realize this will probably never happen, but oh well.

 

[Spaullba]

Where in any of my posts have I said I believe any country is better than our own. I am simply arguing that we are not right in this situation or at least not handling it the right way, neither are the actions of the other side. You are the one who seems to have the idea that we are better than all other countries. I am arguing that we are no better, I have never said we are any worse.

We have had a shitty policy in the ME for the last century and unfortunately we are paying for it now. However our reactions are following the same shitty policy.

 

[bio-chem]

Authority probably isnt the right word. But the UN would work better if people would be more willing to work for a global good versus a personal good. I realize this will probably never happen, but oh well.

the only way to make it work is to develop a system where the two are the same. when adam smith wrote the wealth of nations he understood that you have to have the invisible hand in play or the system won't work to benefit all

 

[DOMS]

As far as I know the United States was not a nation during the Crusades... I was referring to our country not Christianity. I am not religious and I identify very little with Christianity. I am talking about recent history, post-industrialized society.

My point was that they hate us for shit going back a lot earlier than the 1950s.

And I am not making an attack on Christianity either. I am saying that you claiming that the nation of Islam is a violent hateful group of people has just as much credibility as saying that Christianity is a violent and hateful group of people.

Oh, wait... I wasn't aware that our government was killing gays, stoning women to death for adultery, beating women because they drank a beer, cutting the hands of off thieves, and the like. Then yes, by all means, we're just like them.

There have been over 100,000 civilian deaths since we entered Iraq. Doesn't sound so clean to me.

You do realize that the number you did a quick Google for and found (probably antiwar.com) goes back to 1990, right? Also, are all of those deaths at the hands of Americans? Even more important, how many of those were done by the US during the actual war to get Saddam? How many were soldiers and how many were civilians. You're number don't talk shit about that.

The real agenda, (as I have said in multiple posts) is economically motivated.

And nothing at all to do with safety. Okay.

 

[bio-chem]

My point was that they hate us for shit going back a lot earlier than the 1950s.



Oh, wait... I wasn't aware that our government was killing gays, stoning women to death for adultery, beating women because they drank a beer, cutting the hands of off thieves, and the like. Then yes, by all means, we're just like them.



You do realize that the number you did a quick Google for and found (probably antiwar.com) goes back to 1990, right? Also, are all of those deaths at the hands of Americans? Even more important, how many of those were done by the US during the actual war to get Saddam? How many were soldiers and how many were civilians. You're number don't talk shit about that.



And nothing at all to do with safety. Okay.

its like deja vu with big smoothy for me. i don't know that i can handle another one of these.

 

[Spaullba]

Oh, wait... I wasn't aware that our government was killing gays, stoning women to death for adultery, beating women because they drank a beer, cutting the hands of off thieves, and the like. Then yes, by all means, we're just like them.

The governments that we supported and in many cases put into power? In most of the cases you listed it is the acts of individuals, not government policy. The LGBT community, racial minorities, and women are all subject to abuse everyday in this country by our own civilians.

You do realize that the number you did a quick Google for and found (probably antiwar.com) goes back to 1990, right? Also, are all of those deaths at the hands of Americans? Even more important, how many of those were done by the US during the actual war to get Saddam? How many were soldiers and how many were civilians. You're number don't talk shit about that.

Youre right I did do a google search and the number was cited by multiple places, none of which were antiwar.com. I am not writing a scholarly research paper here and I am not going to go on a 20 minute long search for the most credible source possible. At least I am backing my opinions up with evidence and not calling people morons to justify my opinions.

I truly believe that our activity in the ME is much more economically fueled than it is by security, and I do not believe this to be that radical of a view. Also, I do not hate my country or think any other country is better than our own. To quote Immortal Technique, "I love my country I just hate the people in charge".

Anyways I am walking away from this thread. You are entitled to your opinions as I am to mine, neither of us are going to change the others mind over an internet forum. I have good reasons for believing what I do and I am sure you do as well. Good day.

 

[DaMayor]

Whether this 'situation' has been a flowing field of golden daisies, or a seven mile shit storm is irrelevant. If the United States did not take the initiative to step in when these rogue nations started showing their ignorant asses, we'd all be glowing in the dark by now.

 

[CORUM]

SPAULLBA..... you my friend are a douche!!! if you love the ME so much and you think the USA is so bad and we show our military muscle too much FUCKING MOVE!!!! and you ask do muslims hate christians just because they are christian??? you must not know too many TRUE muslims, (not talking about wanna-be nation of islam that people in the US convert too) yes they hate christians because they are christians!!! they do not like our way of life at all so they want to get rid of it because they feel it is influencing there country. by the way i work out here in california for the military and there is a unit out here full of true muslims from over seas that are cultural advisors and they will explain it too you. their opinion of ALL American women are they are loose, easy whores.... which they actually told some of the women i work with. your statements through this whole thread have been totally idiotic!!! have you ever left the US??? you talk bad enough about it, maybe you need to get out and see the world!!! since you support muslims so much i will tell you what..... do you have a sister??? how bout a girlfriend??? well how about i go offer your dad or your girlfriends dad... two goats, a horse, and the equivilant of about a hundred US dollars for them. the agree, now either your sister or girlfriend (as long as both above the age of 6) will be married to me, and i can do whatever i want with them. if they say anything, they have shamed me and her family so i can send her back and her father will kill her!!!! YEP great religion and belief!!!! i hate when i read people comparing the US to other countries and then talk bad about the US, you enjoy your freedom to talk shit about the government but you wont defend it........ DOUCHE!!!!!


oh by the way DOMS love you man!!! LOL like to see people support the country against morons!!!

 

[DOMS]

The LGBT community, racial minorities, and women are all subject to abuse everyday in this country by our own civilians.

Fair enough. If you're done, we're done. But I'll make one last comment that has nothing to do with the Middle East.

You have no idea what real abuse is. None.

LGBT: The can't get married or be openly gay in the military. That's a far cry from being killed.

Minorities: Do you mean stuff like college scholarship funds, and other organizations, that are only open to minorities? Illegals that come here and have access to all of the benefits of being an American?

Woman: what the hell are you talking about? Contrary to fallacy that flannel-wearing women tell, they get paid just as much, or as little, as a man. They also get the lions share in divorce. They have support groups for just about everything. They have scholarships, and other financial assistance (small business loads, etc.) that are only open to women.

Not only do you not know what real abuse it, you also don't know what it's really like in the good ol' US of A.

 

[DOMS]

oh by the way DOMS love you man!!! LOL like to see people support the country against morons!!!

It's my pleasure.

I'm sick to fucking death of people telling me that because I'm American that I'm somehow inferior to everyone else just because they're not American.

To all of those people: A hearty fuck you!

 

[DOMS]

we'd all be glowing in the dark by now.

That probably sounds cooler than it actually is.

 

[Spaullba]

Fair enough. If you're done, we're done. But I'll make one last comment that has nothing to do with the Middle East.

You have no idea what real abuse is. None.

LGBT: The can't get married or be openly gay in the military. That's a far cry from being killed.

Minorities: Do you mean stuff like college scholarship funds, and other organizations, that are only open to minorities? Illegals that come here and have access to all of the benefits of being an American?

Woman: what the hell are you talking about? Contrary to fallacy that flannel-wearing women tell, they get paid just as much, or as little, as a man. They also get the lions share in divorce. They have support groups for just about everything. They have scholarships, and other financial assistance (small business loads, etc.) that are only open to women.

Not only do you not know what real abuse it, you also don't know what it's really like in the good ol' US of A.

I was referring to violence and rape and other forms of discrimination

 

[CORUM]

To all of those people: A hearty fuck you!

 

[DOMS]

I was referring to violence and rape and other forms of discrimination

Rape? Do you know what happens to a rapists in this country? He gets the book thrown at him, and probably a beating in jail. If it's statutory, he gets ten years and probably killed in jail.

That's what the culture in the US thinks of that.

In the Middle East? A chick went to the authorities and complained that a prominent member had raped her. You know what they did? They got angry with her for besmirching such a nice guy and ran a train on her. Do you know what a "train" is? Is when you get raped by a number of people, one after another. She was raped because she reported a rape.

Other forms of discrimination? You mean, like when people aren't nice to you or hate you for some stupid reason? That's called being around humans. Sadly, that's a part of every culture. I've already mentioned the real differences.

 

[Spaullba]

My entire point in this thread has been derailed and misinterpreted. I do not believe any country is better than our own. I love my country and think the majority of people here have good intentions and I wouldn't trade it for anywhere else.

HOWEVER, I believe that our country has a shitty, repressive, imperialistic foreign policy that is motivated by our own economic gain. That is all. I'm done.

 

[DaMayor]

HOWEVER, I believe that our country has a shitty, repressive, imperialistic foreign policy that is motivated by our own economic gain. That is all. I'm done.

Then run for office and FIX IT....and yes, you are done.

 

[Dark Geared God]

My entire point in this thread has been derailed and misinterpreted. I do not believe any country is better than our own. I love my country and think the majority of people here have good intentions and I wouldn't trade it for anywhere else.

HOWEVER, I believe that our country has a shitty, repressive, imperialistic foreign policy that is motivated by our own economic gain. That is all. I'm done.

well then well done ... you fail again...

 

[ZECH]

I believe that spending billions of dollars in homeland security would be money better spent than occupying their country is (and less lives lost). Many would also argue that they would not be attacking us if we did not have such a massive military presence in their country, even before 9/11.

I would agree with the first statement.....but......................
It's been proven no matter how much money we spend or how much training we have, we CAN NOT 100% prevent an attack that way. Like my original statement said, if we leave, it opens the door to bring the fight here. They did it already. So I don't see that option ever working. Airport security proves that. We are no better off now than we were in 2001 and look and the billions we have spent. IMO, you got to attack the problem at its roots, and that is where they train and live and that is what we are doing. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. Plans/objectives change everyday. You may not know it or hear about it, but it does. Look how long we have been in Korea and Viet Nam. The same thing will apply in this case. They will be there when we die.

 

[DOMS]

HOWEVER, I believe that our country has a shitty, repressive, imperialistic foreign policy that is motivated by our own economic gain.

Which is so-o-o different from everybody else...