Carb Cycling Bulk Diet Critique

[ddawg]

I'm about to start a really clean carb cycling bulk and I wanted to get an idea of how good it is. I'm 20 years old, 6'0 and 170 pounds (skinny fat). I plan on doing this type of schedule:

Monday and Thursday--High Carb--3074 Calories/90g Fat/314g Carbs/261g Protein--41/34/25 carb/protein/fat split

Tuesday and Friday--Medium Carb--2834 Calories/93g Fat/242g Carbs/257g Protein--34/36/30 carb/protein/fat split

Wed./Sat./Sunday--Low Carb--2600 Calories/96g Fat/176g Carbs/250g Protein--27/38/35 carb/protein/fat

I'm going to post my high carb day so you guys can see what I'll be eating. It will be pretty much the same thing just with less carbs on the other days and a different dinner:

HIGH CARB---calories/fat/carbs/protein
7:00--Pre-Workout
5 Egg Whites
25g Chicken Breast
120g Oatmeal

608/11/81/45

9:30 PWO
1 Cup Skim Milk
115g Banana
30g Whey
65g Oatmeal

562/7/85/44

10:30 PPWO
25g Chicken Breast
1 Cup Skim Milk
80g Oatmeal
1/4 Cup Blueberries

474/7/75/29

12:30
2 Fish Oil Pills
1 Tsp. Olive Oil
40g Oatmeal
5 Egg Whites
14g Whey

355/10/29/35

2:30
2 Natural Cheese Sticks
20g Walnuts
15g Almonds

342/26/6/25

5:00
12g Whey
1 Cup Skim Milk
2 Fish Oil Pills
1/2 Tbs. Olive Oil

218/10/13/18

7:30
8oz Tilapia
200g Frozen Green Beans
170g Lettuce

313/4/21/49

10:00
25g Chicken Breast
1 Tbs. Olive Oil
10g Whey

200/15/1/16

Totals 3074 Calories/90g Fat/314g Carbs/261g Protein
__________________

 

[VanessaNicole]

Why a carb cycle bulk?

The whole point of carb cycling is to keep levels of leptin up so your metabolism doesn't decrease to the same extent as with consistent resitricted calorie dieting. This is so you can lose weight.

Why do you have three low carb days? Your average calories per day here are 2,800. That's about 200 calories above maintenance for you.

This is not a good bulking diet. You need to consume an average of at least 3,200 calories a day.

Just eat a clean, high calorie, high density diet every day.

VanessaNicole

 

[ddawg]

Why a carb cycle bulk?

The whole point of carb cycling is to keep levels of leptin up so your metabolism doesn't decrease to the same extent as with consistent resitricted calorie dieting. This is so you can lose weight.

Why do you have three low carb days? Your average calories per day here are 2,800. That's about 200 calories above maintenance for you.

This is not a good bulking diet. You need to consume an average of at least 3,200 calories a day.

Just eat a clean, high calorie, high density diet every day.

VanessaNicole

The only reason I was doing carb cycling was because I wanted to do a really clean bulk and so my three off days were going to be those 3 lower carb days. So I shouldn't lower my carbs on off days? Like today for example when all I did was chill at the house all day, do I really need 300+ carbs? So what daily macro split and calorie range would you guys recommend for someone skinny fat like me that wants really clean gains and should I eat that everyday?

Also are the food choices I posted good?

 

[Emma-Leigh]

I'm about to start a really clean carb cycling bulk and I wanted to get an idea of how good it is. I'm 20 years old, 6'0 and 170 pounds (skinny fat). I plan on doing this type of schedule:

Monday and Thursday--High Carb--3074 Calories/90g Fat/314g Carbs/261g Protein--41/34/25 carb/protein/fat split

Tuesday and Friday--Medium Carb--2834 Calories/93g Fat/242g Carbs/257g Protein--34/36/30 carb/protein/fat split

Wed./Sat./Sunday--Low Carb--2600 Calories/96g Fat/176g Carbs/250g Protein--27/38/35 carb/protein/fat

I don't think that carb cycling while bulking is an altogether bad idea... As long as your total calorie intake is above maintainence then 'zig zagging' is fine.

And your outline looks ok.... I would decrease protein slightly (260g is a lot for someone who is your size and "skinny fat") and increase carbs slightly - especially on your 'higher carb' days..

So set protein to ~1.5g x desired lean mass (eg: if you are 170 and 17% now you have 140 pounds lean mass... but say you want to get to 150 pounds lean mass... so you set your protein intake to 225). Then redistribute your cals to carbs.

eg:
High - 3050 cals, 355-370g carbs, 225g protein, 80g fat
Med - 2850 cals, 270-300g carbs, 225g protein, 90g fat
Low - 2600 cals, 185-200g carbs, 225g protein, 100g fat

HIGH CARB---calories/fat/carbs/protein
7:00--Pre-Workout
5 Egg Whites
25g Chicken Breast
120g Oatmeal

608/11/81/45

This looks fine... But how soon after eating this will you be working out?? If it is closer than ~1.25-1.5 hrs you may want to re-think it and go for something that is faster to digest (especially because you are working out first thing in the morning)...

9:30 PWO
1 Cup Skim Milk
115g Banana
30g Whey
65g Oatmeal

562/7/85/44

Looks fine..... Although I would take advantage of non-starchy carb sources PWO on high carb days (eg: why not invest in some sweettarts. ).

10:30 PPWO
25g Chicken Breast
1 Cup Skim Milk
80g Oatmeal
1/4 Cup Blueberries

474/7/75/29

Not too bad... I would leave out the milk. Add some healthy fats too. And I would also add some vegetables.You might also want to increase your complete protein...

12:30
2 Fish Oil Pills
1 Tsp. Olive Oil
40g Oatmeal
5 Egg Whites
14g Whey

355/10/29/35

Boy can not live on oats alone.... (translation: pick another carb source!!).
Add vegetables.

Add vegetables.

2:30
2 Natural Cheese Sticks
20g Walnuts
15g Almonds

342/26/6/25

Decrease your fats - spread your fats over all your meals except pre and post workout.

Add something like fruit or vegetables here too.

And increase protein slightly.

5:00
12g Whey
1 Cup Skim Milk
2 Fish Oil Pills
1/2 Tbs. Olive Oil

218/10/13/18

I would not use milk... Highly insulinogenic and I usually suggest people keep it pre/post workout.

Add fruit/vegetables.

7:30
8oz Tilapia
200g Frozen Green Beans
170g Lettuce

313/4/21/49

Add fats. Decrease protein slightly (spread it evenly).

10:00
25g Chicken Breast
1 Tbs. Olive Oil
10g Whey

200/15/1/16

Errmmm.... Why not just use chicken?? Or something like a slower digesting protein (eg: caesin)?

 

[ddawg]

What are some other non starch carbs?

 

[ddawg]

So would carb cycling be better than equal amounts every day?

 

[Jodi]

So would carb cycling be better than equal amounts every day?

It's great to keep fat gain at bay and ensure quality LBM

 

[ddawg]

It's great to keep fat gain at bay and ensure quality LBM

I think I'm going to try the carb cycling type thing that Emma suggested:

High - 3050 cals, 355-370g carbs, 225g protein, 80g fat
Med - 2850 cals, 270-300g carbs, 225g protein, 90g fat
Low - 2600 cals, 185-200g carbs, 225g protein, 100g fat

It basically works out to this split on the days: carb/protein/fat
High--45/32/24-----------370g carbs
Medium--35/35/30--------250g carbs
Low--30/36/34----------200g carbs

I'll be working out 4 days a week and have those 4 days be my 2 high and 2 medium days. Then on the other 3 days I'll have my low days. What I did for my low days is since I won't be doing too much, I put most of my carbs in my first 3-4 meals and then my final 2-3 meals are just mainy fat/protein/veggies.

I have one question though....when I average these numbers out, it comes out to about 2900 calories/day a week. When I need to start taking in more calories, which days should I adjust and which macro should it be??? Thanks!

 

[ddawg]

Emma, the reason my protein is so high is that I try to have 7 meals a day and in each meal I try to get atleast 15g complete protein in each meal. In addition to this, I get protein from incomplete sources which come from my carbs like oatmeal. If I need to decrease my protein, what other macro should I increase in order to get enough calories to gain.....fat or carbs?

Basically, what should be my carb/protein/fat macro split on my 3 days.....high,medium,low?

 

[Emma-Leigh]

Emma, the reason my protein is so high is that I try to have 7 meals a day and in each meal I try to get atleast 15g complete protein in each meal. In addition to this, I get protein from incomplete sources which come from my carbs like oatmeal.

Which is why you should consider swapping some of your oats to something with less protein so you can get a better quality protein source.

eg: pre workout what about replacing some of the oats with some fruit or plain fat-free natural yoghurt?

In your PWO shake - the non-starchy carbs I was talking about would be dextrose or sources of this (eg: smarties, sweettarts, spree... ). As you are haivng a banana I wouldn't get anything with too much sucrose in it - so try to look for pure dextrose or glucose syrup.

On your medium carb days you could try things like rice crackers, cooked white rice (mmm.... protein rice pudding... )... things like that.

If I need to decrease my protein, what other macro should I increase in order to get enough calories to gain.....fat or carbs?

Basically, what should be my carb/protein/fat macro split on my 3 days.....high,medium,low?

Firstly - I don't like % - I go by body weight/lean mass... % mean jack all...

What I suggested above is what I would suggest you do (if you wanted to keep fats higher). But I usually like to see fats lower on high carb days (minimum of about 50g or less)... So if you wanted fats a little lower then something like:
High: 3050 cals, 415-430g carbs, 225g protein, 50-55g fat (which, if you must know, is 55: 30: 15)
Med: 2850 cals, 300-320g carbs, 225g protein, 80g fat (roughly 45: 30: 25)
Low: 2600 cals, 200-220g carbs, 225g protein, 95g fat (roughly 33: 33: 33)

 

[Emma-Leigh]

I have one question though....when I average these numbers out, it comes out to about 2900 calories/day a week. When I need to start taking in more calories, which days should I adjust and which macro should it be??? Thanks!

You don't need more protein - so it would be carbs/fats... And I would bump up carbs on high carb day.... both on medium... and primarily fats on low carb days.

 

[aidmen]

i know it's an old thread but i wanted to know how it worked for you since i wanted to try it this way myself instead of just following 60/25/15

 

[Built]

i know it's an old thread but i wanted to know how it worked for you since i wanted to try it this way myself instead of just following 60/25/15

What's 60/25/15 mean to you, aidmen? How many calories, and how many grams of protein, carb and fat? How tall are you and what do you weigh? And how much do you intend to gain on your current bulk?

 

[aidmen]

means around 500gr carbs, 225gr proteine and around 50grams fat for 3300kcal
i'm 5ft9 and 169pounds at 12%bodyfat
my intention is to gain around 5kg of lean bodymass but try to keep my bodyfat the same

 

[Built]

means around 500gr carbs, 225gr proteine and around 50grams fat for 3300kcal
i'm 5ft9 and 169pounds at 12%bodyfat
my intention is to gain around 5kg of lean bodymass but try to keep my bodyfat the same

Okay, cool. You've got about 150 lbs of lean mass, and assuming you're natural, you might consider bringing up your fats a bit. I usually suggest at least a half a gram of fat per pound lean mass, which for you means 75g as a minimum. (I like my fats higher, but I'm female and fats help me feel full so it's easier to keep my calories under control). Other than this, if you're bulking, you just want to increase your calories.

If you only want to gain muscle, you'll need to do this very slowly because gaining muscle almost always "costs" you a bit of fat gain as well. You might want to check out Martin Berkhan's leangains site, or investigate Lyle McDonald's UD2.0 if this is the tack you intend to take. As I said, maddeningly slow, but fewer wardrobe changes and no "fatass" period.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

 

[juggernaut]

I thought Intermittent Fasting could only be used for fat loss-you can do it for a clean bulk? Can you tell how?

 

[juggernaut]

Also MA, is it possible to do weight training in an 18 hour fasted state AND also do cardio after weight training, then begin the post workout meal?

 

[Built]

jugg, read Martin Berkhan's site. He's forgotten more than I know on this topic.

 

[juggernaut]

I did. Found something verrrrry interesting:

Fasted Training Boosts Muscle Growth? | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

 

[sassy69]

I did. Found something verrrrry interesting:

Fasted Training Boosts Muscle Growth? | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

IF is really interesting - I've got some friends who are veritable fiends for Crossfit & Paleo dieting who love it and live it, some w/ some insane fasting periods, while still doing insane amounts of training both fast & heavy.

I did try it earlier this year - lasted about 8-9 days before some scheduling & stress issues made the fasting period more miserable than anything. Prior to that, I found it very easy to adapt to. Personally, I still find the multiple small meals to be more in my comfort zone.

 

[Built]

You have the multiple meals thing down to an art-form, I think. It's been normal for you for so long, and it's worked for you so I can't see why you'd want to change it.

 

[sassy69]

You have the multiple meals thing down to an art-form, I think. It's been normal for you for so long, and it's worked for you so I can't see why you'd want to change it.

Its definitely more of a lifestyle thing, just as IF'ing is. That said, this year will be a year of massive change in many things lifestyle-wise for me. I don't really seeing IF'ing as something I'll do before December, but beyond that, it might become appropriate.

 

[mattrag]

I use the UD2 and this time i'm using the IF during the low cal days and I must say it helps.

I'd say for bulking though, if you're not used to eating 3000 cals you might wanna space it out more. I don't think it's a good idea to be on bulk and be eating less than you want to be eating per "sitting", Eating every 3hrs is not NEEDED persay unless either 1 you are on gear, or 2 you are clearly at your genetic limit and don't want to use ever.

 

[juggernaut]

IF is really interesting - I've got some friends who are veritable fiends for Crossfit & Paleo dieting who love it and live it, some w/ some insane fasting periods, while still doing insane amounts of training both fast & heavy.

I did try it earlier this year - lasted about 8-9 days before some scheduling & stress issues made the fasting period more miserable than anything. Prior to that, I found it very easy to adapt to. Personally, I still find the multiple small meals to be more in my comfort zone.

Sassy, how did you setup your macro-structure? I'm having a real pain in the ass setting it for a possible shot at it. And what percentages should I use for protein, fat and carbs?

 

[Built]

Jugg, two questions. First, what is the difficulty you are having with this, and second, why percentages?

 

[aidmen]

they both kinda look like the diet i did for almost a year
exept i didn't fast but only ate veggies and proteines for my meals and in weekends sometimes a cheat meal or junk food.
it does make you lean out good, i was at 6,4% but it did make me lose 10kg of pure musclemass to.
so for bulking i'm a little sceptic.
i understand it's a 16hour fast but it doesn't say how much calories to take in
does it mean i should implement my 3300 cals and amount of carbs,proteine,fats in those 8hours instead of spliting them over the entire day?

 

[juggernaut]

Jugg, two questions. First, what is the difficulty you are having with this, and second, why percentages?

The problem I'm having is exactly how to portion my carbs, protein and fat inside of the 9 hour window, in which case I meant percentages-40% protein, 30% carbs and 30% fat would be my guess. The other debacle I'm running into is to how to divide the portions to ascertain the needed caloric requirement to meet my needs.
Also, the first meal should generally fast digesting carbs with protein-especially after training, yes?

 

[aidmen]

the plan i made up from this post is high 445/225/35 3050kcal
medium 300/225/80 2810kcal
and low 144/225/90 2300kcal
and mayby a no carb day on my off day
does that look any good?

or is it better to just go high,low,high,low,high,low,high+ with the high+ being a cheat meal

 

[Built]

The problem I'm having is exactly how to portion my carbs, protein and fat inside of the 9 hour window, in which case I meant percentages-40% protein, 30% carbs and 30% fat would be my guess. The other debacle I'm running into is to how to divide the portions to ascertain the needed caloric requirement to meet my needs.
Also, the first meal should generally fast digesting carbs with protein-especially after training, yes?

Again with the percentages. Why would it matter? It's cals in, cals out my friend. I don't know why you'd want fast carbs for your first meal. Is it for the insulin? You only need whey protein for that part.

Jugg, just set up your macros for the day, pack your food, and eat what you've packed. I don't believe for a moment anything matters nearly as much as that.

they both kinda look like the diet i did for almost a year
exept i didn't fast but only ate veggies and proteines for my meals and in weekends sometimes a cheat meal or junk food.
it does make you lean out good, i was at 6,4% but it did make me lose 10kg of pure musclemass to.
so for bulking i'm a little sceptic.
i understand it's a 16hour fast but it doesn't say how much calories to take in
does it mean i should implement my 3300 cals and amount of carbs,proteine,fats in those 8hours instead of spliting them over the entire day?

You lost ten kilos of muscle? First off, how do you know this and second and third, what kind of deficit did you run and how did you train?

the plan i made up from this post is high 445/225/35 3050kcal
medium 300/225/80 2810kcal
and low 144/225/90 2300kcal
and mayby a no carb day on my off day
does that look any good?

or is it better to just go high,low,high,low,high,low,high+ with the high+ being a cheat meal

Personally, I see no purpose in high-med-low. Just go hi-low and be done with it. I like the one high+ like you've suggested, if you can afford the cheat calories.

 

[aidmen]

i know it's muscle cause it was after a contest and i was 91kg at 4% and now i'm 77kg and 12%.
i know it's my own fault being in a deficit for way to long.
i ran around only 1600kcal each day for over a year trying to stay lean but also burning of precious muscle mass and actually getting more skinny and 'fatter'
i use a 5day split now training around 50min with about 3x20min of cardio each week.
i gain easely and used to bulk and cut from 102kg back to 89kg but stopped contests so only want to get some lean extra mass back.
and reading up on all those different 'diets' just makes it all very confusing.