Carbs and fats

[P-funk]

the fact that the term bollox has now been used three times in one thread is beyond me.

 

[wild]

Yes - which is just my short hand way of saing "no, you do not need to seperate carbs and fats. There is no scientific evidence to suggest it is necessary in the least and it is not going to instantly turn you into a marshmellow should you combine the two".

Tell that to my belly...I checked my pastries...fat and carbs...no wonder I'm a fatty now

 

[The13ig13adWolf]

Yes - which is just my short hand way of saing "no, you do not need to seperate carbs and fats. There is no scientific evidence to suggest it is necessary in the least and it is not going to instantly turn you into a marshmellow should you combine the two".

then forgive me for misunderstanding because in Britain it's used figuratively to mean nonsense, poor quality or useless.

 

[Thunder]

not arguing either side, but the both of the food combining studies were done on obese subjects and only measure weight loss, not LBM. Results then can't really be extrapolated to bodybuilders or non-obese subjects who are looking to gain LBM while either losing or gaining minimal fat. the other studies only talk about overall ratios not individual meals.

True. As well, can't quite remember the details, but weren't the studies based on food (self) reporting as well. Wait, actually I think that was for the studies that showed a difference b/w low carb and high carb eating. Ah well, who cares?

 

[Thunder]

Now, I think everyone in this thread should post pictures of their physiques to support their positions. We all know that's the real way to debate the efficacy of any strategy. None of this science mumbo jumbo

Kris - you're a pic wh0re. You can start.

:frantically running away:

 

[The13ig13adWolf]

"hello pot, this is kettle.....you're black"

I'M a picture whore....LOL.

 

[Thunder]

"hello pot, this is kettle.....you're black"

I'M a picture whore....LOL.

Umm yes. Precisely.

 

[Pirate!]

Dr. Lagowski, Dr. Iverson, Dr. Davis, Dr. Kohl, Dr. Meadows, and to some extent Dr. Brilley and Dr. Loop.

It is well understood that most medium and long chains fats are absorbed through the lymphatic system. It can take ~16 hours from ingestion for these fats to be released into the blood. The fats travel from the lymphatic vessels to the thoracic duct behind the heart. From the thoracic duct, the fats pass through the subclavian vein and into the heart. This process takes lots of time, again ~16 hours. Why does this matter? Because you can have your pro/fat meal at bedtime and the fat will be entering your bloodstream as you ingest carbs at lunch or even during your PWO shake, God forbid! Fat isn???t like carbs, where 3 hours later it is out of your blood. There aren???t many, if any, studies about what you call macro splitting, because there are way too many things that have been extensively studied and show that not only are there benefits to combing the foods you suggest to separate, but that the reasoning behind the splitting it based on a flawed understanding of digestion, absorption, and utilization of nutrients???such as the example above. To quote one my nutrition textbooks, ???The art of ???food separation??? represents faulty logic and gross underestimation of the body???s capabilities. In fact, the contrary is often true; foods eaten together can enhance each other???s use by the body???. It continues to list a myriad of reasons for combing foods, such as the improved absorption of iron in the presence of vitamin C. To think that fat won???t be used for energy as opposed to stored as fat because one hasn???t eaten carbohydrates for 3 hours is preposterous. I realize that is only a part of the reasoning of the ???method???. In reality, you don???t know when you have much fat in your blood. Ever have blood work done after fasting all night? Guess what, plenty of triglycerides are present. I could go on and on. If you want to know why you can't find studies about this macro splitting method, it could be because all the people that fund such studies (usually universities) already know that it simply doesn???t make any sense in light of what has been determined from all previous studies about nutrient absorption, digestion, and utilization.

I still say, if it works for you, go and enjoy it. Maybe there are some advantages. IMO, nutrient timing is much more important than separation. The fact remains that there is an overwhelming amount of data from studies that totally debunk the faulty reasoning behind the hypothesis such that no one cares to test it. You can???t get past the hypothesis stage when the reasoning for the hypothesis simply doesn???t add up. This is a fad that has come and gone over the decades. Sorry.

 

[The13ig13adWolf]

IMO, nutrient timing is much more important than separation.

although, timing is taken into consideration with separation as well. just a thought.

 

[Thunder]

Dr. Lagowski, Dr. Iverson, Dr. Davis, Dr. Kohl, Dr. Meadows, and to some extent Dr. Brilley and Dr. Loop.

It is well understood that most medium and long chains fats are absorbed through the lymphatic system. It can take ~16 hours from ingestion for these fats to be released into the blood.

MCTs can take 16 hours to reach the blood? LCTs require a lot of bile acids and digestive steps to be digested into smaller units before they can be absorbed into the bloodstream - conventional fats are transported as chylomicrons, but MCTs are transported directly to the liver where they are oxidized extensively to produce energy.

There aren???t many, if any, studies about what you call macro splitting,

:sigh:

Once again, if you'll review my posts I have said more than once that it is NOT about macro splitting, but about timing macros to periods where they're most needed. You know? Nutrient timing?

because there are way too many things that have been extensively studied and show that not only are there benefits to combing the foods you suggest to separate, but that the reasoning behind the splitting it based on a flawed understanding of digestion, absorption, and utilization of nutrients???such as the example above.

Are you reading any of my posts?

To think that fat won???t be used for energy as opposed to stored as fat because one hasn???t eaten carbohydrates for 3 hours is preposterous.

When did I say this?

I realize that is only a part of the reasoning of the ???method???. In reality, you don???t know when you have much fat in your blood. Ever have blood work done after fasting all night? Guess what, plenty of triglycerides are present. I could go on and on. If you want to know why you can't find studies about this macro splitting method, it could be because all the people that fund such studies (usually universities) already know that it simply doesn???t make any sense in light of what has been determined from all previous studies about nutrient absorption, digestion, and utilization.

You're talking to me like you're the only one with a university education here.

IMO, nutrient timing is much more important than separation. The fact remains that there is an overwhelming amount of data from studies that totally debunk the faulty reasoning behind the hypothesis such that no one cares to test it. You can???t get past the hypothesis stage when the reasoning for the hypothesis simply doesn???t add up. This is a fad that has come and gone over the decades. Sorry.

I almost feel like you're in a different conversation than everyone else here.
I think you might want to go back and reread some of the earlier posts.

 

[Thunder]

This post for example.

This really isn't complicated. Do you have to split of carbs and fats to see progress? Of course not. And it's correct that there's no published data to support it either. Mind you, there's really not any that directly refutes it either. Nor is there any published data that I'm aware of that supports something like say, carb/calorie cycling, yet many, many people find it more beneficial than static dieting. It is but ONE way of setting up a diet. Nothing magical, just a convenient way for some people to eat.

It's also true that what tends to be most important is calories, adequate protein, adequate EFAs, etc. As someone said, (paraphrasing) anything that meets those qualifications and isn't stupid will work ... up to a point of course.

I don't think anyone is saying macro splitting is magical. I don't think anyone HAS said that outside of hardcore JB followers back in the day.

There ARE times during the day when you need and want certain macronutrients and times when these same nutrients are less than ideal, or even simply not really needed - and this really just reflects carb intake. Generally speaking, when consumed around greater periods of activity, nutrients tend to be absorbed and utilized more effectively. Everyone knows about the PWO hooplah, so suffice to say it's a period when you want what ideally? Protein and carbs. Not fat. I think everyone (most) will agree with that. Extend that to the Post PWO meal - still going to be predominately protein and carbs depending on goals for many people.

Outside of the hours following an intensive workout, our bodies aren't so cooperative when it comes to making efficient use of nutrients. Once the effects of the workout have worn off, we return to normal physiological functioning, which is characterized by normal insulin sensitivity/resistance and a relative reduction in anabolic hormone levels. The rest of the day has the greatest variability obviously, but for the average person, while protein is a constant, quite simply, you don't need as many carbs, so you can use fat (say fruit as well) as a caloric ballast to help you meet your daily caloric goals and aid in recovery. Basically low carb meals because they're really not needed.

That's it. One way of timing macros according to your training. Not magic. It's not about the magic of macro splitting. It's simply a method of timing macros around periods you need them most.

 

[Pirate!]

University nutrition programs do not really teach 'sports nutrition'.

I intent no offense by saying this, but this is blatantly incorrect. We take classes on sports nutrition and advanced sport nutrition topics. Who do you think works with the UT football team? I personally counseled nationally ranked tennis players on their diet about 3 weeks ago. I'm not bragging nor am I accredited. But, I am intimately involved with the sports nutrition program at UT. I realize that some programs are geared toward becoming an RD, but that is only two of the ~7 nutrition majors, and not the program I am in. I have yet to meet Ivy, but hopefully I will have him for some of my upcoming classes and possibly do some post-grad work with him. It appears he will only be teaching kinesiology, not sports nutrition. However, his Condition For Competitive Athletes class were certainly touch upon sports nutrition.

 

[Pirate!]

The thread was originally about splitting meals into p/c and p/f. I was addressing that. I understand the importance of macro timing, and I've said nothing that contridicts it.

 

[Thunder]

The thread was originally about splitting meals into p/c and p/f. I was addressing that. I understand the importance of macro timing, and I've said nothing that contridicts it.

I realize that, but you're replying to me are you not? Considering you answered my questions about the profs (none that I'm very familiar with) I can only assume the 'you' in your posts is directed at me.

And I am not the one who's talking about macro splitting or any mysticism behind it. I have been talking about timing the entire time.

 

[Pirate!]

MCTs can take 16 hours to reach the blood?

Sometimes,yes.

conventional fats are transported as chylomicrons

True, and it is a long slow process for them to get into your blood streem, as the lymphatic system has no pump.
I'm not intending to talk down to you or suggest that you don't know the science behind it. Most of what I'm including is for other readers who aren't familiar with the basics.

 

[Thunder]

Sometimes,yes.

Just for fun and the sake of discussion ....

You said:
"It is well understood that most medium and long chains fats are absorbed through the lymphatic system. It can take ~16 hours from ingestion for these fats to be released into the blood."

A couple things

1. It's not well understood that MCTs are absorbed through the lymphatic system. They're traditionally brought right to the liver. They're more water-soluble and are able to get into the bloodstream quicker because of their shorter lengths.

2. What are the situations where this occurs? (the lymphatic/16hr for MCT thing) You had first mentioned it's well understood, but now say just sometimes. Legitimate question, since I either don't know the answer or quite simply can't remember it.

I'm not intending to talk down to you or suggest that you don't know the science behind it.

Ahh, not at all. No worries there. I'm not offended. I enjoy this kind of discusion.

 

[Pirate!]

you answered my questions about the profs (none that I'm very familiar with) .

They aren't experts in kinesiology or sports nutrtion. Some head the Biology, Chemsistry, and Nutrition colleges. I've gotta hit the hay. I agree with almost everything you have said, Thunder. As you said, there is no magic to the macro splitting. In fact, I wasn't refuting anything you said. I was being presumptuous, believing that some of the other posters' reasoning was the same that these fad diets like Protein Power and other books have put forward, making claims on macro splitting. I apologize if I've offended you and I enjoyed having an engaging discussion about my favorite subject, nutrition. Night!

 

[Thunder]

They aren't experts in kinesiology or sports nutrtion. Some head the Biology, Chemsistry, and Nutrition colleges. I've gotta hit the hay. I agree with almost everything you have said, Thunder. As you said, there is no magic to the macro splitting. In fact, I wasn't refuting anything you said. I was being presumptuous, believing that some of the other posters' reasoning was the same that these fad diets like Protein Power and other books have put forward, making claims on macro splitting. I apologize if I've offended you and I enjoyed having an engaging discussion about my favorite subject, nutrition. Night!

Cool stuff. See ya next time.

 

[Seanp156]

The End

 

[Pirate!]

Just for fun and the sake of discussion ....

You said:
"It is well understood that most medium and long chains fats are absorbed through the lymphatic system. It can take ~16 hours from ingestion for these fats to be released into the blood."

A couple things

1. It's not well understood that MCTs are absorbed through the lymphatic system. They're traditionally brought right to the liver. They're more water-soluble and are able to get into the bloodstream quicker because of their shorter lengths.

2. What are the situations where this occurs? (the lymphatic/16hr for MCT thing) You had first mentioned it's well understood, but now say just sometimes. Legitimate question, since I either don't know the answer or quite simply can't remember it.



Ahh, not at all. No worries there. I'm not offended. I enjoy this kind of discusion.

You are correct. MTC are water-soluble and are able to get into the bloodstream quicker because of their shorter lengths. I was incorrect. MTC (6-10 carbons) and short chain FA (<6 carbons) are mostly found in dairy products and make up a relatively small amount of the fat we injest. Long chain fatty acids (12 to 24 carbons) make up the vast majority of fats consumed, as they come from meats and fish.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Load of bollux with no **real** science behind it.

Get it fucking right! She said Bollux, NOT Bollox!
Fuck people.

 

[boilermaker]

I have found this thread to be a poor representation of IM. Especially considering the number of moderators involved. I'm surprised that someone didn't take control and squash the childsplay that went on here. This is meant to be an informative section of the site. Each moderator brings their own base of knowledge and opinion to IM. It is a poor representation of IM to have persons associated with the site to be bickering amongst themselves. Some of you should be ashamed.

 

[Emma-Leigh]

Sorry steve....

 

[The13ig13adWolf]

I have found this thread to be a poor representation of IM. Especially considering the number of moderators involved. I'm surprised that someone didn't take control and squash the childsplay that went on here. This is meant to be an informative section of the site. Each moderator brings their own base of knowledge and opinion to IM. It is a poor representation of IM to have persons associated with the site to be bickering amongst themselves. Some of you should be ashamed.

IMO, as a result of the bickering....there is a TON of useful information throughout this thread and none of it got too far out of hand. a little debate is healthy now and again. just my .02.

 

[Pirate!]

I want to formally apologize. I made an idiot of myself last night. Not that it is any excuse, but I am in the middle of finals and was completely sleep deprived. I hardly even remember half the stuff I said. It is a great topic to debate, but my argument was a total disaster from my first post. Hopefully, in the near future we can start the debate fresh and have it be more thought provoking. I owe it to the readers of this board and to myself (I do have a reputation to maintain) to make reasonable claims and back them sufficiently. I failed to do so last night. My time would have been better spent sleeping, too. Peace to all...

 

[Thunder]

I want to formally apologize. I made an idiot of myself last night. Not that it is any excuse, but I am in the middle of finals and was completely sleep deprived. I hardly even remember half the stuff I said. It is a great topic to debate, but my argument was a total disaster from my first post. Hopefully, in the near future we can start the debate fresh and have it be more thought provoking. I owe it to the readers of this board and to myself (I do have a reputation to maintain) to make reasonable claims and back them sufficiently. I failed to do so last night. My time would have been better spent sleeping, too. Peace to all...

LOL

I think the only crazy thing you said was that macro splitting cures cancer or something like that.

Take a nap and good luck on your finals.

 

[1xDeatHsHeaDx3]

Well, that was an entertaining read...

Both educating and entertaining, something all posts should contain

 

[Dale Mabry]

not arguing either side, but the both of the food combining studies were done on obese subjects and only measure weight loss, not LBM. Results then can't really be extrapolated to bodybuilders or non-obese subjects who are looking to gain LBM while either losing or gaining minimal fat. the other studies only talk about overall ratios not individual meals.

Post them please.

 

[emunah]

See Emma's post. I was referring to those studies.

 

[Dale Mabry]

not arguing either side, but the both of the food combining studies were done on obese subjects and only measure weight loss, not LBM. Results then can't really be extrapolated to bodybuilders or non-obese subjects who are looking to gain LBM while either losing or gaining minimal fat. the other studies only talk about overall ratios not individual meals.

Sort of...The combining study showed that fasting glucose, insulin, triglyceride and cholesterol all dropped significantly, but equally in both groups. This should be applicable to non-obese folk as well.

I think I am becoming IR again.