Chest/Delt Training

[pwloiacano]

Here is a great thread for the group where I am looking for some of the really great advise that I have gotten and used successfully from this forum.

I have been getting way to carried away with my flat bench press movements. I have made some serious strength gains, but at the expense of my shoulders really aching, especially when I sleep at night. A great example is new years eve. I am 6'1" and about 275 lb -- 44 yrs old. I was able to get 365 lb twice, then tried 400, and almost got it. All these lifts are also raw -- no bench suits, elbow or wrist wraps. Later that day, my left shoulder tightened up to a point where I could barely lift my arm above shoulders length. It has since subsided and I do not believe I tore anything. My shoulders have taken a serious beating and I know that I have overdone it. They still ache after a good chest/front delts workout which I do once per week.

My usual chest routine is:
Flat Bench: 5-6 sets
30 degree inclines: 3-4 sets
40 degree inclines: 2 sets
Incline flyes at 30 degress: 3 sets

Shoulders:
Power press: 4 sets
Sided laterals: 2-3 sets
upright rows: 2-3 sets

I know that I have overdone the 1 rep max training. I am afraid of huritng myself further.

My main goal is to build more mass in my chest and delts.

Does anyone have some good advise as to how to do this without having to max out all the time. My shoulders can't take it anymore!!

What type of rep range would be good to do? How many sets? Weight?

Also, would it maybe be a good idea to start with inclines first for a while?

Should I back off on shoulders for a while?

Any tips you could provide would be appreciated. Thanks and look forward to your feedback.

 

[Life]

Well just starting out, you're doing at least 13 sets of chest exercises and up to 15. I never go above 8 with direct pressing movements (Flat, incline, decline). You're over stressing the supporting muscles and there is no reason for you to be doing that many sets, especially after doing a 1RM on the flat bench. It's a game of what muscle is going to go first at that point. Building mass is very individual but I would suggest looking into the 5/3/1 system. You have your main lifts followed by two accessories. Thats all you really need.

Inclines are very good to start with but you won't be seeing the same weight as the flat. For me, inclines are worse on my shoulder than flats.

If I were you I'd lower weights and deload for a week at least. This means 60-70% of 1RM at most.

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks for the advise. When you suggest 60-70% of my 1RM, how many reps should be performed. Should I go to failure each set?

I am also doing some research on the 5/3/1 system. Thanks for the tip.

 

[cshea2]

Thanks for the advise. When you suggest 60-70% of my 1RM, how many reps should be performed. Should I go to failure each set?

I am also doing some research on the 5/3/1 system. Thanks for the tip.

For a deload, you would be much better off not even going close to failure. The volume can be the same, but make sure the intensity is way down. Then when you lift heavy again you'll be fresh and really into it.

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks cshea. I am trying to build more mass in my chest as well. I have already seen some good gains, but want to concentrate more on building muscle and not overdo it with 1RM training. My shoulder joints are sore.
How often would you suggest doing 1RM based on my situation?
When building muscle, should I try to do sets in the 5-7 range for compound movements?

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks to all who have replied. Still hoping for more feedback.

 

[cshea2]

Thanks cshea. I am trying to build more mass in my chest as well. I have already seen some good gains, but want to concentrate more on building muscle and not overdo it with 1RM training. My shoulder joints are sore.
How often would you suggest doing 1RM based on my situation?
When building muscle, should I try to do sets in the 5-7 range for compound movements?

Honestly if your pursuit is mainly mass, 1RM's are pretty useless except for gauging intensity. 5-8 reps is an ideal rep range IMO. So using 75-85% of your 1RM good for your working sets, and you can go higher and lower every once in a while like a triple, but do them sparingly so you don't overtrain.

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks again cshea.

One last question. Life mentioned that only 8 sets of pressing compound movements was adequate for the entire workout. Here are a couple extra questions:

1) 8 sets even though I only train chest once per week?
2) How many sets in addition for isolation movements like flyes, pec deck, or cable crossovers?
3) I like to work front/side delts after chest as I feel that my recouperation time is better because of the current state of my sore shoulder joints. If I added 3-4 sets of power presses ( this is a combo exercise -- hang clean from the waist up to the neck, then 2 reps pressing overhead. That equals one rep ), is that overdoing it? I would also add about 2-3 sets of very light side laterals. What do you think??

Thanks again. Looking vforward to your feedback.

 

[Life]

All of the above depends on you personally. How your body reacts. I don't see the need for more than eight sets of direct chest pressing in a week. Your chest will grow, just increase the weight. I don't do isolation exercises but I can tell you my chest is better than the majority of the guys that go to my gym and I'm a good 50-60 lbs lighter pushing the same weight.

As for the shoulder work on chest day I can't really comment. I used to work shoulders right after my benches but I have gotten better results moving shoulders to a day by themselves (Friday whereas my chest day is Monday). If you go heavy on your chest then your shoulders will be pretty taxed by the time their turn comes around. If you're already having pain in your shoulders I would split them up. It has helped me more than I would have thought.

 

[cshea2]

All of the above depends on you personally. How your body reacts. I don't see the need for more than eight sets of direct chest pressing in a week. Your chest will grow, just increase the weight. I don't do isolation exercises but I can tell you my chest is better than the majority of the guys that go to my gym and I'm a good 50-60 lbs lighter pushing the same weight.

As for the shoulder work on chest day I can't really comment. I used to work shoulders right after my benches but I have gotten better results moving shoulders to a day by themselves (Friday whereas my chest day is Monday). If you go heavy on your chest then your shoulders will be pretty taxed by the time their turn comes around. If you're already having pain in your shoulders I would split them up. It has helped me more than I would have thought.

I agree 8 sets is plenty, I rarely train till complete failure, but your goals are different than mine. I like splitting up shoulder and chest day as well. I don't isolate the chest, but 2-3 sets with crossovers/flies are fine after your presses.

I always thought chest iso was not needed and doesn't really do much, but there not going to take a lot out of you anyway...

 

[Built]

I'd spread the chest work out over a couple of workouts, one focused more on chest/front-delts (incline), and the other on chest/tris (flat, decline, dips). If not, at least consider moving shoulder work to a different workout, perhaps pairing chest with biceps and shoulders with back.

Ditch upright rows entirely. They give you nothing that can't better be obtained with other movements; my personal favourites for shoulder work are outlined in this article: Got Built? » The Shoulders of Giants
In particular, look at the olympic bar corner presses - you will love the way these feel, and perform.

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks built. That was a great article.
A question on training routine. How many days after chest, should I wait to do shoulders? My current routine is chest/front delts on sat ; back/traps/rear delts on either sun or mon ; arms on tues ; legs on thursdays. Do you habe a recommendation for different split?

 

[Life]

I do:

Back/Chest/Off/Legs/Shoulder (And Biceps)/Off (Or Cardio)/Off

I would have at least two days in between Chest and Shoulders. More than three would be optimal.

 

[Built]

Thanks built. That was a great article.
A question on training routine. How many days after chest, should I wait to do shoulders? My current routine is chest/front delts on sat ; back/traps/rear delts on either sun or mon ; arms on tues ; legs on thursdays. Do you habe a recommendation for different split?

I do:

Back/Chest/Off/Legs/Shoulder (And Biceps)/Off (Or Cardio)/Off

I would have at least two days in between Chest and Shoulders. More than three would be optimal.

pwloiacano, thank you for reading my article - I'm glad you found it helpful. I'll look forward to hearing back from you once you've tried it for a few weeks.

I agree with Life - a few days between chest and shoulders for anyone with some flavour of RC issue is, in my mind, prudent.

Your current split is this:

• Tuesday: arms
• Thursday: legs
• Saturday: chest/front delts
• Sunday or Monday: back/traps/rear delts

Arms don't need their own day, and you only have one leg-day. I don't know what movements you're doing for legs, or for any of your workouts actually, other than your former shoulder workout.

Perhaps train legs twice a week? Perhaps something like this:

• Tuesday: shoulders and legs (maybe do higher-rep squats, walking lunges etc here, and start with shoulders so you train them when you're fresh - but do warm up this area well before you train it)
• Thursday: Posterior chain (deadlifts, RDLs, GMs, GHRs, t-bar or bent over rows, dumbbell rows)
• Saturday: Chest
• Sunday or Monday: arms and legs (heavy, lower-rep squats would work well on this day, perhaps RDLs here instead of on Thursday). Maybe toss in a few sets of chins here too; hits bis and lats which is never a bad thing. If you do, start with chins this workout. No wider than shoulder-width. You could do something like chins, dips, bicep curls, close-grip bench - in that order, then a few sets of heavy, low-rep squats, maybe a 3x8 of RDLs, and if you're in the mood for a pump before you leave, preacher curls with rope pressdowns in 8-12 rep antagonist pairs as two supersets before you go home.

Just a suggestion. I haven't had breakfast yet so I may have missed something.

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks for the feedback built.
One question, when you say train legs twice per week based on your split, I would be training them twice within 3 days. How would that work?
Also, how many sets are you referring to on each day that you mentioned for the body parts?

Thanks again. That is why I love this site. I get great advice that I can put to use to get results.

 

[Built]

I train legs three times a week. I just don't OVERTRAIN them three times a week. You could do 5x5 squats and 5x5 GMs one day, and perhaps 3x12 squats and single-leg leg press or walking lunges for quads, and 3x8 RDLs and maybe a few short sprints for hams on the other leg day. Loads of options.

 

[pwloiacano]

Just an update for the guys giving me advise. I decided to train chest/tri's today.

I took your advise and did not exceed 8 pressing sets for chest. Did 5 sets flats (at about 60-70% of 1rm) ; then 3 sets of light low incline dumbells. My shoulder was still a bit sore, but started feeling better as I went through the sets. I knew that if I went any heavier that I would have been in the same situation that I was in last week. So, I played it smart. We will see how I feel in the next couple days. I ended chest with three sets of cable crossovers at 15 reps each set really contracting my chest on each rep.
Then I did some tri's. about 8 sets. Pushdowns, skull crushers and kickbacks. My tri's were really pumped at the end of the workout.

Sunday, I am planning to do back/bi's. Starting off with some chins to warm up; then dumbell rows ; cable rows ; underhanded pulldowns ; maybe some t-bar/barbell rows if I am nor tired. Trying to get to about 12 sets. Then for bi's... barbell curls ... incline dumbell curls .. maybe concentrations .... about 7-8 sets total... Then some plate pinchers for forearms to end.

Let me know your feedback on today and what I am planning to do for tomorrow's workout.

 

[Built]

How about:
Chins 3x8-12 (any grip but keep the width no wider than shoulders)
Deadlifts 3- 5x5
Unsupported T-bar rows 3x8-12
Dumbbell rows 3x8 each side

Then for biceps
5x5 standing alternating dumbbell curls
followed by these two movements done as three supersets:
* 8-rep dumbbell curls done on a low incline bench (these will be light but feel heavy as hell. Watch the speed on the eccentric - you don't want to tear anything
* 8-rep close-grip lat pulldowns sitting up ramrod straight and done with a weird tempo - fast eccentric and a slow concentric.

This little bicep workout is also written up on my blog and is based on Holman's "positions of flexion" method. Try it. The first time I did it, I felt the skin over my biceps stretch.

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks built. I had an excellent back workout on Sunday.
I started off with a few sets of assisted chins to warm up. Then did 3 x 8 dumbell rows ; 3 x 10 wide grip underhanded pulldowns ; 3 x 8 barbell bent over rows ; 3 x 8 seated cable rows. My back was pumped beyind belief and I can really feel it this morning.
The I did bi's. Did barbell curls. 3 sets between 5-7 reps. One drop set. One 21 set. Then 3 x 8 incline curls. Then 3 x 8 underhanded pullups. I had a good pump. However, it took a few sets into barbell curls to really get going. I find that when I do bi's with back that I have to back off on the weight and really work though some stiffness on the first couple sets.
Finished off with 4 sets of plate pinchers for forearms.

Tuesday I am going to do delts. Since I went light on chest saturday, my shoulder feels a ton better. I am going to try the routine in your article. One question though. Is there a substitute for the corner press exercise? There is not an area at the gym big enough to perform this exercise based on how the equipment is staged... Would doing smith machine front or behind the neck presses suffice, or something else?

 

[Gissurjon]

just out of curiosity. at 6'1 275lbs, what is your bf%?? that also kinda relates to the "wanna build more muscle " statement, maybe you are making size gains on your chest but they are hidden?? im 6'2 and at one point i weighed 254 pounds at 20+ bf% but my chest "looks" way bigger now at 215 10%bf than it did then

 

[Gissurjon]

and another thing concerning your shoulder. make sure you warm it up good before you start. you said it starts feeling better as you get deeper into the workout, might that be because its still warming up through out the beginning of the work out?? and therefore isnt completely warmed up when you started putting weight on it...

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks gissurjon.
What would you consider a good warmup? I am looking for all the feedback that I can get on this subject with my shoulder.

Also, I would estimate that my bodyfat is between 15-20%.

 

[Gissurjon]

I consider myself warmed up when sweat starts to drip off my chin. i really cant tell you how to warm up because i believe you should try and do something you enjoy (you are less likely to cut the warmup short because you hate doing it). personally i like to do some basketball related stuff since i enjoy it and it involves the whole body. Dont skip the warmup sets!

275 at 15-20 % BF is pretty damn solid.

 

[Built]

Watch it with heavy warmups that leave you sweating. Cardio isn't very good preparation for lifting - in fact, it can tire you out and leave you prone to injury due to fatigue.

Warmup for lifting prepares the muscles to activate well, and quickly. Progressively heavier low-rep sets (with not too heavy of a weight) can be excellent prep for lifting. For shoulders, I like to train vertical pulling (chins, lat pulldowns) first, and or cleans. Some shoulder mobility work can be good too - look for "shouldering through the pain" by boris bachman online, and see if you can find his vids on youtube for shoulder mobility.

pwloiacano, is there a cage or a squat rack at your gym? You can just stick the end of the barbell inside the cage and load it up in there. I sometimes stick the end of the barbell inside the smith machine too.

 

[Gissurjon]

Watch it with heavy warmups that leave you sweating. Cardio isn't very good preparation for lifting - in fact, it can tire you out and leave you prone to injury due to fatigue.

i agree, warmup that gets you fatigued would be stupid and I really would not put that in a "warming up" category .jogging would not be ideal to warm you up for bench press, i get that. But like i said, warmed up for me is once i start sweatin (does not require high fatiguing intesity) a bit and after that come specific warm up sets.

 

[pwloiacano]

BUILT... I did shoulders today. I did the following: 5 x 5 combo hang clean and press ; 3 supersets arnold dumbell presses and side laterals ; 3 sets bent over laterals for rears ; 3 sets reverse flyes on peck deck for rears. It was a great workout. My shoulders did not hurt at all. I finished off with some trap work -- shoulder shrugs...
The only exercise I did not perform is the corner presses.

That superset is a great exercise. I really felt the burn on my delts !

 

[Built]

Hey, great! Try the corner press next time; you'll love 'em.

 

[pwloiacano]

Thanks for your advise Built. I have an inquiry in the supplement forum regarding amino acids. Can you please review and let me know your feedback. Thanks.

Also, thanks to all others who gave me feedback on this subject!

 

[urfitness]

I think you need to take your doctor's advice about your shoulder problem.
My advice is to avoid lifting weights until complete cure of your shoulder to avoid permanent injury.
& good luck