copper deficiency

[hardasnails1973]

yes i am taking inositol 500 mgs 3 times a day. I did discover that excessive niacinaminde could possible put and extra strain on methyl donors. For some reason Dr kane had me taking 500 mgs for some unknown reason. Right now everything is balanced and supplementing according to my WBC tests if there is any extra that was indicated. Choline b-5, zinc, coenzyme q 10, vitamin E, b-2 where major deficeincy indicated by WBC testing. I been trying to get caloires in but for some reason I have little appetite despite exerciseing cardio ect.

Could this have something to do with low serotonin levels for no desire to eat.? I found pfferiers chart of undermethylation symptoms and I fit just about every one.

Following same protocol as you suggested long time ago
gaba, mg, zinc, b-6, inositol, lecthithen for choline, taurine, theanine,

using 200 mgs x 2 times a day samme to feed the homocysteine and TMG, folonic acid, methyl cobalin to resynthesis to methione using 100 mgs p5p. Sleep has been best in 3 years FINALY

would increasing to 400 mgs samme 2 times day be more optimal in my condition since I have low homocystein levels to begin with.

 

[Trouble]

More likely CCK is low due to rapid gastric dumping after meals. You're very much like the classic ectomorphy model.

Per the sam-e: try 400 mg in the morning, and 200 mgs in the afternoon, first.

You're getting quite a bit of methylation equivalents as it is. Moderation is our goal..once under-supply condition is corrected. You're how far along in correction? About 6 months?? Easy does it.

Are you using selenium in a multivitamin or as a chelate?

 

[hardasnails1973]

selenium methione as supplement. Actually I felt better with in 3 days of taking TMG. better focus, bowel moments, sleep patterns are back to normal. Body is waking up with sun light no alarm clock needed. Appetite is slowly increasing, not as bloated with meals and stomach is getting leaner by the day, breathing is alot better too much deeper, feel more calm inwardly

Could have I had a folic acid defiency indirectly due to fact that it was not getting methylated since i was lacking cofactors hence elevated serum folate levels in the blood stream where accumulating not getting converted to active form? Since I have slight neutropenia and leukopenia ? similar to a defect in the 5-MTHFR enzyme

 

[Trouble]

Yes you could, but simple blood work can answer the question definitively.

You're making so many positive gains in health, I would be careful about how much tweeking you do..remember, you are building up cellular response at the gene level now, as cells continue to turn over in liver, but and CNS under the more healthy lifestyle change environment. Plus, you will be building up short term cellular reserves in some cofactors and coenzymes, and substrates. That means you (waggling hand) move back and forth between excess and deficit of methylation factors and sulfur moieties within these interconnected biosynthetic pathways.

If you ask your ND, he would agree. As long as you are making steady improvement, caution should be employed in making continuous tweeks.

The leukopenia and neutropenia will respond as your fatty liver condition resolves (reason I asked about the inositol) and certain fats cease to repress key P450 enzymes that play a role in white blood cell production.

That make sense?

 

[hardasnails1973]

Yes it does make complete sense and if at anytime I would not understand I would research it to make sure I would. So ihypothetically if a person is undermethylated they would have a greater chance of having a sub clincal fatty liver which would possible alter folate and b12 metabolism because of defect in the methione synthase and MTHFR enzymes and could possible divert to CBS and the choline/TMG pathways (elevated sarcosine on urine test) as altertive means to lower the homocysteine levels. By diverting to the CBS pathway this would cause DNA hypomethylation resulting in lower homocystein levels which are common with mercury and autism cases, cancer. So by athetes putting great stresses on our bodies as well as the fast paced lifestyles of today, hidden enviromental toxins we are taxing our cellular reserves of nutrients which leading us down a path of silient cellular destruction with us not even knowing it before it is too late.

This whole food diet contains a shit load of phytates and oxalates. I was eating alot of seeds and nuts to get my good fats from, but I did not know that could be possiblem binding my minerals. I stopped storing my food in plastic containers and use glass now due to fact that xylene is xenoestrogen found in plastic containers, and air we breath. I never use the microwave and heat food up on the stove. You may call me an extremist but I am doing what ever changes in my life to get healthier and something seems to be make a huge change in past 3-4 weeks.

My ND at first cost me 1000 bucks for 2 hours of his time and 1 organic acids test by metametrix. When test came back he just went with protocol with what they recommended. That session being 2 hours costs me another 300 bucks. I then mention adrenal fatigue/ hypothyroidism and his opinons on it. Another 300 bucks later Next session he came to wonderful conclusion of adrenal fatigue( smacking my self in the head), but did not offer a salvia cortisol test and when I started to ask complex questions about methyation and homocysteine, Samm-e he would say I would have to research that and it would cost money and time. When all said and done you looking about 30 grand and it got me no where other then be called a hypochondriac to even drs wanted to lock me up in mental institution. From our conversations i have made more progress then ever, by you providing vital clues and me digging further to comprehend them. Yes my freinds call me a nerd, but unlike other to circum this I be damned to give up and go on living like a cripple or even ending my life when its just beginning. I was never a quiter and not going to start being one now.

What liver pathways detoxifies rt3, dhea, and other hormones. Is methylation the main one for this or sulfuration, glucuitation?

Parents told me I was snoring for first time in almost 3 years !!

 

[Trouble]

Selenium and zinc are the primary modulators of iron and mercury (and other metals) toxicity. When the absorption mechanisms fail and dietary deficiency has contributed to dysfunction of the important balances within the organic sulfur driven pathways in liver, the changes in key sulfur-bearing compounds that *control* important points of energy flow (via chemical messenger dialog) between gut, liver, brain, muscles and fat storage results in compromised function of an important class of enzymes central to much of my research interests for 30 years; cytochrome P450s. We now know that Phase I and II detox reactions in liver either change solubility of toxins, or they the toxins are chemically altered with a 'handle' (sulfonation, glucuronation), then bound to shuttle proteins and excreted into the intestines for disposal.

For you, the next step in lifestyle modulation must come in quieting the every busy and result-driven mind, through meditation, belly breathing, mindless walking (just opening up senses to your surroundings, giving mind a break and soaking up sunlight for much needed vitamin D synthesis), sensible rest..and one more item. The deliberate cultivation of the spiritual side of your life.

For a long time now, you have been the hamster running on the wheel, always trying to move forward towards better health. Now you are out of that cage, and making very nice progress on the physical front, and some on the emotional front. You need not run anymore; you can afford a more measured and thoughtful pace. Before you go into this next phase of life, an embark on whatever career path you choose, you should prepare yourself to cope with the stresses that will accompany this change.

Learn to guide the flow of your stress from mind, down through the portals of the body, disposing of negative stress while internalizing positive stress, just as your liver does, in removing toxins and retaining and recycling important mineral components.

The pattern of your writing will change. By this, we will know that hidden places are healing as well.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Yes your analogy of the hamster is a perfect example of what the last 3 years have been like. For once in my life i do not feel uptight or on edge, but rather calm and at peace with my self. I do not worry like I used to and even though I want to help people i think with my head first rather then my heart. In the past I was willing to jeopardize my well being to help some one I did not even know, but now I examine the situation and see if it is really worth the effort. I put my self in some dangerous situations trying to help people because I was just looking for exceptence from people and thinking doing the right thing I always some how end up being the one that was hurt. Since we are on the route to recovery I must think before I act and examine the whole picture be for assume the responsibility. As for clearing out the fatty liver it will take time I am sure. The liver has to recycle and cells will shed over next several months.

I have raised the sam-e to 400 and 200 per day
tmg is at 1000 mgs 3 times a day
folinic acid is 800 mcgs x 2 times a day
methycolbalin 5000 mcgs daily
inosital 500 mgs 3 times with the gaba, mag, mixture
Bcass 5 grams 3 times a day mainly before and after training.
50 mgs zinc methione,


You mention about choline and I have soy lecithin granules. would 1-2 TBSP 3 times a day be a moderate amount? Since I am choline defieicnt based on lab testing or would it be better to get just plain choline powder or by correcting methylation the liver should start producing it on its own?

Since trying to recovery from semi fatty liver. Would it be adviible to have a lower fat intake say 15-20% vs 30% of dietary intake to help take stress off the liver for a bit and help it recovery.

Thanks

 

[Trouble]

Fat intake should be between 20-30%,, I would vary it within that range, because we need some to drive steroid production.

You mention about choline and I have soy lecithin granules. would 1-2 TBSP 3 times a day be a moderate amount? Since I am choline deficient based on lab testing or would it be better to get just plain choline powder or by correcting methylation the liver should start producing it on its own?

Do not use lecithin. Use choline citrate (BN). Use only 200-250 mg per day. No more than that. The lecithin will cause you to produce too much acetylcholine, which is counter productive here.

Down the road, when your metabolism and body mass have stabilized and your body fat is at an acceptable 8-12 percent, then you can add a little lecithin to your diet. Its really just purified cell membranes from plants. You're getting the inositol and choline from other sources (supplemented, and from eggs, respectively). I would rather you get your PC and PI directly from plant matter anyway.

Plan on it taking about 3-4 yrs to recycle the liver; about 4-5 to completely reverse the disease state at the gene encryption and expression level. About that long to make changes in the brain, thyroid, adrenals, and kidneys, as well. GI should be back to near normal within 1-3 yrs. Pancreas in about 3 yrs as well. Muscle, however, is relatively responsive and normal metabolic (energy) competence should be back to near normal within a year or so.

Settle in for the long haul. Once you have stabilized symptoms, you will need to maintain this approach for a while, or you will slide backwards again, because you aren't producing the enzymes that make up for the deficit, nor do you have solid GI and liver function yet.

I missed your post, sorry for being tardy replying.

What does your ND say about all of this?

 

[hardasnails1973]

My MD is stiil baffled by the fact that something is metabolically blocking my metabolism and zinc absorption. It was funny him and I thought a minutes and both came up with 2 possibilities alcohol or estrogen. I notified him that on all my organic acids tests I had been excreting large amounts of xylene which was a xenoestrogen and that my last estrodial reading was 30 with low free and total testosterone (200 ng/dl). So we are going to check on testosterone (free and total), estrodial, dhea-s, free t-3 in another week to see where we were at. I was taken 10% testocreme with an antiestrogen supplement (dim/c d glucurate) and feeling good. He told me to reduce all antiestrogens so we can get an accurate reading with out them. With in a week of stoppig the antestrogen i started to get depressed and fat gain, exercise intolerance, bloating, constipation, joint pains despite all other variables being the same. i told him what was going on and this is what he anticpated and is actually a good sign, but now I have to hold out till I get test results back. He agrees with opening up the liver pathways with proper detoxification with aid the process of undermethlyation which he believes is not do to mercury toxciity. I politely asked could possibly the metabolic pathways being depletes by hidden estrogen dominace impairing zinc absorption and he agreed. I dug around and found that excessie estrogen load can cause hypomethylation of DNA and excess lipid perioxidation as well as suppress t4 to t3 conversion. I did tell him that I was using armidex for the contest at 1 mg a day for 6 weeks with fina aplex and winstrol then stopped the steroids and continues on the armidex at 1mg a day for another 5 weeks and just stopped cold turkey and did not taper. About 2 weeks later I had bad joint pain, depression, bloating, muscle atrophy and fat gain, anxiety, sleep problems, thats when I had the suishi. In his best medical opionion I had a nasty estrogen rebound that ended up suppresses immune system, lower testosterone, and suppressing thyroid, leading evenutally into adrenal fatigue. I told him after starting taking ZMA and testosterone was coming right back up with puzzled the endocronologist with in 3 weeks went from 40 to 300. Once test are back we are having a more clinical idea of where we stand. For now he agrees with 100% supporting the liver pathways as currently doing. i am the first case that he has ever seen like this that basically he beleives if proper testing was done at the beginning alot of this could have be curtailed and properly addressed. As you previously mentioned excess insulin was obviously a factor with that amount of rice i had consumed with the suishi, but if there was also an estrogen factor involved then it was a double whammy. Could it be possibe excessive estrogen could impair the absorption of zinc imparing the methione synthase enzyme and the alternative pathways (choline/betaine) / CBS be used as back up resulting increased cellular gluthione production?

 

[Trouble]

The excess xylene is puzzling. Did you have excessive exposure to solvents (hobbies, work)??

Of course, if Phase I and II detox pathways in the liver weren't working, its possible that phenolic acids bioaccumulated and are metabolized to xylene which is then excreted by glucarate action in both Phase I and II detox reactions in liver.

I don't the answer to your question on zinc and estrogen. I haven't heard of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a correlation.

I think you had a problem with phytates in your diet and it was stripping out zinc. I believe the imbalance between test and estrogen lies in the long chain fatty acid activation of P450s in liver that were abnormally regulated (upregulated expression), resulting in unusual conversion of test to estrogen.

That bleedout of these fatty acids (from your beloved coconut products, a potential source of the long chain fats in question, or that unusual elevation in omega fatty acids) will take time. You should continue to use the antiestrogens.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Well could the excessive estrogen from testosterone conversion over activated the aromatize which was zinc driven. Xylene also comes can be a result of heated plastics in microwave which I lived out of at work for years. but no longer do now Just recently i put all my food in glass dishes verse storing them in plastic ones. And when I really go sick they were painting the bathrooms which I inhaling the fumes from getting light headed from after 4-5 days they finally moved me since my work proformance was being affected. Could the excessive convertion of testosterone to estrogen could have resulted in excess lipid perioxidation which I have is pretty much a given. So stopping the antiestrogen just kind of reinforced that I have an estrogen problem. I was having the morning male thing with test and antiestrogen and then matter of a few days later I had nothing. I do remember when I was feeling really good I was taking 2 grams of calcium d glucurate with 4 caps of 98% PC plus mineral support. I did find several refrence saying that women on Birth control should increase zinc intake. Blood sugar imbalances can alter zinc metabolism and absorption as well.

I totally agree with you about the phytates binding the zinc, as well as copper and iron, but shouldn't zinc in chelated form be able to avoid this? When they talk about binding do they mean all zinc chelated supplements are vulnerable to this except the monomethionne form of zinc.

 

[Trouble]

. Could the excessive convertion of testosterone to estrogen could have resulted in excess lipid perioxidation which I have is pretty much a given.

No. The lipid peroxidation was directly brought about by suppression of the gluthathione antioxidant enzyme present in membranes. It must be recycled from oxidized to reduced in order to work. It also requires selenium in its active site. And, its gene expression is controlled by zinc finger proteins.

So there is a possible connection between your lipid peroxidation state, low glutahtione, low zinc and low selenium.

There maybe a zinc finger protein that controls gene expression of other systems in liver..its a largish family of regulatory control factors. Zinc in an organic chelate can only be absorbed as efficiently as the gut is able to do so. Remember, your gut lining isn't exactly hunky dory yet.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Yes my gut is not intact to well I am sure, but zinc lozengers should by pass that problem correct to an extent.

 

[Trouble]

Yes sir, but zinc requires specific sulfur enzymes for internalization (across membranes, its active transport in the case of Zn) then transfered and bound to carrier proteins for plasma transport and insertion into active centers of enzymes. Also, when it counteracts overabundance of other metals or is out of balance with key metals, it can also cause problems. Note also that if you have a fast gut (meaning that you have rapid gastric emptying and a very acid environment (when neutralizing actions are absent in the intestines) metals may remain in solution and fail to be taken up effectively by gut.

 

[hardasnails1973]

TRouble going back to the gut issue. . If fat is unabsorbed in the intestinal track can it interfer with nutrient absorption (protein, vitamins,minerals)? I know fats gets must be emulsified in order for the lipase to function properly, but what detrimental effects does this have on the body if the fat does not get properly emulisifed by bile salts. If fat is not properly digested this will have an impact on ones cholesterol production as well? Woud you possible end up with a scenerio similar to cystsis fibroysis creating Fat soap in your intestinal tract?


Thanks

 

[Trouble]

Fat is emulsified to improve absorption across the gut wall lining. If it doesnt get emulsified, you end up with fluffy shits, floaters. Thats usually a pretty good indication if you have insufficient emulsification activity. Low density material in the intestines moves very quickly, hindering absorption of other materials, and the fats themselves can form a greasy occlusive layer on intestinal cells, if dietary fiber is low. Yes, if lipids aren't properly solubilized, it hinders colon reabsorption of bile acids and cholesterol.

132 posts and almost 2400 peeps. Hmm. You wonder.. what is the level of boredom of the average peeper to this thread???

 

[hardasnails1973]

Fat is emulsified to improve absorption across the gut wall lining. If it doesnt get emulsified, you end up with fluffy shits, floaters. Thats usually a pretty good indication if you have insufficient emulsification activity. Low density material in the intestines moves very quickly, hindering absorption of other materials, and the fats themselves can form a greasy occlusive layer on intestinal cells, if dietary fiber is low. Yes, if lipids aren't properly solubilized, it hinders colon reabsorption of bile acids and cholesterol.

132 posts and almost 2400 peeps. Hmm. You wonder.. what is the level of boredom of the average peeper to this thread???

Well we know my choline levels are in the shitter verfied by WBC analysis. I did get some choline bitrate 350 mgs. Taking one a day along with my whole eggs so getting aquete amount of choline so to speak now if its getting absorbed that a whole other problem. i did run out of my Super enzyme pills with the oxbile in them other week so that might have some thing to do with fact when I eat fatty meals I just feel like bloated to hell like fat intolerant. When ever I eat low fat meals I feel fine CCK you were refering to if fat is not absorbed properly could this result fast gastric dumping which could be causing the bloat you feel after eating?

Yeah I know when the average peepers see these big scientific words in a thread that they do not know how to pronounce they run the other way.
For one thing you do not hold back and tell it like it is that for damn sure and never candy coat anything either

 

[Trouble]

The bloat is an inflammation reaction often seen in spastic colon cases, caused by irritation from fatty acids..maybe from excess bile.

350mg of choline is a lot on top of whole eggs. I'll be curious to see how you respond to such a large dose.

*squint*

This thread is one of the driest I have ever seen; its mostly technical :

Why are forum readers eagerly tuning in for the next *exciting* installment??

Could they be waiting to see if you grow a third eye or turn an interesting shade of green from all these supplements?? *snicker*

 

[hardasnails1973]

No not turning green, but I am starting to grow a third nut LOL . No actually my shits have been light tan for past few days when I can get them out LOL. So possible I may be low on bile. I got all laundry list of supplements finally back in stock. When ever people come over they think I am running a heathfood store out of my house. Reason I can not poop is my butt is too tight it can not relax. it like a need a valium or something to relax it. i stopped taking the lechithan few days ago and just using 350 mgs of choline bitrate with 3 whole eggs a day. The FAT dr (lipid queen) I went to had a great concept "burn the bad fats and replace with good one". She had me doing 8 whole eggs raw a day with 6 TBSP of essential fat blend and loaded me up on ton of supplements. Since being low on choline could there be a great chance that i am having problems with emulisification? I beleive the technical term is called liver steatosis. What to hear something interesting i have been taking emulsified vitamin D, A but not E when I had the WBC analysis and A,D where in normal range and vitamin E was not. Kind of cool huh.

For next mind blowing episode stay tunned....hardasnails is going to get in Trouble HAHA

 

[Trouble]

Add a tablespoon of lecithin back. Keep your eggs. Break your capsules, take half. The light colored stools* is due to fat and not enough bile. You need fiber as well. Buy some citrucel and start to use 1 cap a day with a couple big glasses of water.

Poorly digested fatty acids are EXTREMELY irritating to the intestinal mucosa, which would explain the bloating and irritation/pain. Make sure you spread out your fat intake over the day. You are producing a trickle at present.

The citrucel should solubilize your fats better. Don't worry about bile. It will come along in production, not something you want to push to hard for release from liver. The inositol should be helping with the NASH problem. Beyond bile, fiber is the key to emulsifying fats in the diet and assuring normalized solid waste production.

*I can't believe how casual you are discussing the texture and color of your shits.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Some thing strange happen about an hour or so after taking the choline tab I got rashes under neath both my arm pits they were irritating as hell could not put my arms down. They finally went away after about 4 hours, could this been some kind of detoxification reaction. I thought I was getting plenty of fiber, may be I am not. Greens do not give you too much i guess. Some days I feel like Bugs bunny eating the greens. i might be getting about 20 grams a day may be a tad bit more. I might go back to my rice bran protein pancakes but do not eat them near my vitamins. I was getting 6 grams of fiber out of those puppies !! Do you think ground up flax seeds are too senstive on the digestive tract. at this time. I am using the rice bran in protein shakes a good to 4 hours away from my vitamins. It just feels like there is alot of gase trapped in my colon and can not get out. I feel if I could just let a few good ones ripp I would feel like a new man. I will never take anything for granted again not even farting !!

*I can't believe how casual you are discussing the texture and color of your shits" well it did provide vital information didn't it LOL Ok Next time I just say my fecal excriment was light tan in discoloration to be more pollitically correct

 

[Trouble]

Rash sounds like an allergy. Don't take as much choline. I warned you that the standard dosing is nearly half of what you are taking alone in the capsules.

Fiber should be 30-40 grams. Most people are lucky to see 10g per day.

The fiber should take care of the gas/bloating problem.

I see we are not quite PC yet (migrated from shits to farts). I would get a cheap Melita coffee grinder and grind a mixture of psyllium and flaxseeds and use those in a the rice bran pancakes.

Post your pancake recipe here, would you? I want to try them. thanks

 

[hardasnails1973]

6 egg whites 1 whole
1/2 cup rice bran NOW
cinamon or be alittle fruit ( strawlberries, or 1/4 cup organic apple sauce
blend them up (Kind of make the batter a not so thick other wise they do not come out right, I mastered how the texture should be) consistency should be that of like a myoplex shake.
hit it with pam or better organic butter and cook like pancakes.
I tried the psyllium husk before and it like mush on the inside.
i thought heating your not suppose to heat up flax seeds? they go rancid

DON't use bannanas they end up getting burnt to easy
i prefer cinamon because it helps with blood sugar control

How far away from vitamins should I have this since bran is loaded in phytates in order not to alter mineral absorption --- I know I can be a pain in the ass some times.

 

[Trouble]

Flaxseed oil has been shown to be a lot less healthy than originally thought. I no longer recommend it consumption, but if you have the seeds, it might not be such a bad idea to consume them, providing you don't do it too frequently (every day).

Thanks, thats a nice simple recipe.

wait = 2 hrs, should be hunky dory.

 

[hardasnails1973]

ok fiber intake for day
3 organic brown rice cakes = 6 grams
1/2 cup presoaked organic beans = 8 grams
1 -2 yam/red potatoes = 2 grams
rice pancakes = 4 grams
3 cup greens (dandilion, broccoli rob, swiss chard, carrots, green peppers, green beans, okra all mixed into a big steamer )= 4 grams a day

i might add an apple in my pancakes to give it alittle more kick so to speak.

Diet is gluten free and only grains would be coming from rice bran or rice cakes.
I eat something different every day do avoid developing allergies to food.

Why does your body crave certain foods? I could have ate the 1/2 lb of cashews very easily yesterday thats for sure.

yes i was a flax seed oil user/abuser for years. I was averaging about 3 -4 TBSP a day during contest dieting and not taking a could multivitmain with E in it and also. For 8 weeks i ate only egg whites no yolks with no red meat with 3 TBSP flax oil a day which was usuallly put on top of my meals and heated in the microwave 2 times a day HMMM could this be a good enviroment to envoke a silent fatty liver not even knowing it?

 

[Xel]

Sorry for Hijack

Oi, Trouble,

Regarding phytates, in a IP6 thread over at AL someone brought up the point them impairing mineral absorption and Spook dismissed it, saying (quote) "there are numerous studies showing it to inhibit mineral absorbtion. However it has been shown that if you take vitamic C it eliminates this downside."

A real quick search yielded some stuff like:

The dose-dependent inhibitory effect of sodium phytate on iron absorption was studied in man by serving wheat rolls containing no phytates and rolls to which various amounts (seven dose levels between 2 and 250 mg expressed as phytate phosphorus) were added just before serving. Fe in the two kinds of rolls was labeled with two radioisotopes of Fe (55Fe, 59Fe) and the rolls were served on alternate days. The inhibition of Fe absorption was strongly related to the amount of phytate added; 2 mg inhibited absorption by 18%, (p less than 0.001), 25 mg by 64% (p less than 0.001), and 250 mg by 82% (p less than 0.001). The addition of ascorbic acid significantly counteracted the inhibition whereas the corresponding effect of meat was less well defined and only seen at the highest phytate level. The marked inhibition of Fe absorption by phytates and the significant counteracting effect of ascorbic acid have wide nutritional implications.

So, what's your take exactly? I consume a lot of rice bran and IP6 and currently do not seperate it from my primary mineral sources (both dietary and supplemental). Should I? (I already take 2g of ascorbic acid with it, BTW)

Thanks.

 

[Trouble]

Hello again, Xel. I see you found me here at IM.

Phytates bind divalent cations. The authors of that study were interested in assessing iron depletion in diets by phytates. Remember, they're present in more than the out seed covering of common grains; they're found in unfermented soy products as well.

See this article: http://jhs.pharm.or.jp/52(4)/52_455.pdf

The authors assessed the effects of various environmental factors (pH, reactant concentration, mixing time and speed, etc) on phytate chelation of iron from wastewater solution.

Note that the reaction proceeds in acidic conditions (necessary to protonate the sialic bonds of phytates). One would expect, then that the iron chelation reaction occurs in the digestive track primarily in the stomach and is quenched (eg., inhibited) in the pH neutral condition of the small intestines and colon.

The addition of ascorbic acid *might* form competing complexes with iron and keep it from being absorbed in the stomach by phytate.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2621.2003.00719.x

These authors assessed the calcium absorption isotherms for Ca by rice bran in solution. Again, the absorption is pH driven, but in this case, its the *release* of calcium at lower pHs and the absorption of local (to the phytate surface) soluble calcium at higher pHs that is the feature of phytate-calcium chemical equilibria of interest to us.

One would expect, then, that resident calcium within the phytate matrix is released in the stomach, and reabsorbed somewhat, in competition with both common monovalent cations like Na and H+ (present in superabundance in the stomach) or with divalent cations like Fe++ and Mn+2 in the more pH moderate intestinal track.

That phyatates apparently do not strip out calcium is supported by recent rice bran feed studies in laying hens, animals whose eggs are very susceptible to the effects of calcium shortages.

http://www.agr.hr/jcea/issues/jcea7-1/pdf/jcea71-18.pdf.

The expedient approach is then to be careful in taking your supplements when adding rice bran to your food. Delay taking them, or take them well in advance. I would use this approach for glucuronates, magnesium, TMG and inositol dose timing.

Does this make sense?

Chemistry: its whats for dinner.

 

[hardasnails1973]

I bet you majority of general population take there mutlivitamin with breakfast containing of some kind of cereal such as fiber one, then slam them back with coffee. Well if the phytates from cereals do not get you then the caffine from the coffee probably will. i know phytates where a big problem with me because all these naturopathic drs want you to load up on veggies, nuts, seeds, grains and go low on protein. At one time I was consuming probably 30-40 lbs of veggies a week, but I was only following orders. Also to my ferritin level dropped from 130 down to 60 in matter of one year and also hair analysis indicated it as well all minerals where low except calcium, but it only mentioned grains and left our nuts and seeds which I was eating generous amounts of. Now I know that grains, bean, nuts I eat must be sprouted or soaked before consuming to prevent this.

 

[hardasnails1973]

TRouble,
Since calcium d glucrate aids in estrogen and thyroid, testosterone metabolism. Is there any possiblity that it could be removing the testosterone I have been taking via the creme. I found only one reference not a scientific one that states. Some medication may need to be adjusted. Is there any scientific evidence of this vs just theory.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Akg how many grams would be a moderate dose to increase glutemine out put