Cutting for the Six Pack

[gopro]

Hypertrophy in a surplus I'm jiggy with. Muscle-shaping, well, I'll leave that one to the physiology geeks. I don't know enough about it to argue intelligently about it, and it really doesn't matter what I "believe" now, does it?

Hypertrophy in a cut, now that's a different matter. Outside of newbie gains - or chemical assistance - that's gonna be a tough sell, although with a muscle-pump and less fat-covering, it can certainly LOOK like hypertrophy, especially after shit-loading! Gotta love a good junk-food pump!

Mental connection I have more respect for than you might think. For one, although my undergraduate degree is in Math (Statistics, specifically), my minor concentration was Psychology, and the area I spent the most time with was brain and behaviour.

I'm dealing with a left lat that won't fire properly right now - herniated disk in my neck is pressing on a nerve - and I'm using visualization and muscle-stim among other things to retrain the connection while I floss the nerves to allow for better nutrient flow along the affected neuron. I can imagine that fatiguing a muscle under a variety of conditions would strengthen the brain-body connection, making it easier to fire and therefore, to pump and pose.

Could make an interesting article, gopro. You should write it.

I am not trying to sell you! Not at all. I was just answering your question is all. I understand you have very strong opinions on things that are not going to change, which is totally cool by me. I know what the body is capable of, and it has surprised me the things it can do when you figure out how to trick it. It's all a game of cat and mouse and you have to learn to stay 2 steps ahead, and after 20 years of mad scientist-like experimentation I feel I have gotten there. Heck, I added 120 lbs of lean mass onto my own frame without drugs, so I even shocked myself, LOL.

As for the mind thing...well, to be honest, this is where I feel you can completely separate yourself from everyone else. My degree IS in psychology, with a heavy emphasis on physiological psychology. The mind/body connection goes so deep that it truly amazes me sometimes. You mention an article, of which I have done a few small ones already...but I am actually working on a book. Hopefully with 14 hour work days 6 days a week I will find time to finish it.

An interesting note: When an athlete strongly visualizes performing a lift or a sprint or similar activity, the muscle fibers will actually fire in the same sequence as if they were actually physically performing the task! Amazing stuff!

 

[Built]

I understand you have very strong opinions on things that are not going to change, which is totally cool by me.

Actually, that's not true.

I have no opinions on any of this stuff. I don't do what I do based on opinion - I do what I do based on evidence. Show me compelling evidence of a claim and I evaluate it to see if the research was conducted in such a way as to support it. If it is, I accept this alternative hypothesis.

This is the fundamental principal behind the scientific method, and it's called hypothesis testing.

In hypothesis testing, you start out by assuming the thing you're testing has no effect, or that it has no different effect over the alternative you are evaluating.

If you don't have strong evidence to accept the alternative hypothesis - in other words, if you and the finest minds in your field can't shoot holes in how the research was conducted and how you drew your conclusions, you reject the null and accept the alternative.

So many lay-people don't get that about scientists, and think we're closed minded. We're not. We are in fact very open minded - show me the proof and I will change my mind. I've done it many, many times. Often this starts with a personal observation - and hey, when you find something that works, use it - but don't make claims about it until you can back it up.

For example, I used to buy the company line about glutamine. Bought it for my friends and family for Christmas presents. Consumed it daily. Then I ran out and... nothing happened. I now understand WHY nothing happened lol - I should have done more reading before getting sucked in.

Another example was the metabolic advantage conjecture proposed by Dr. Atkins. I SWORE it wasn't the calories. Posted all over the internet to FORGET calories. LOL! I was so green back then lol, and really, I should have known better than to do that. But the weight just FELL off me and I was just in so much SHOCK about how easy it was... the "advantage" really felt real.

So I went BONKERS trying to find ANYTHING to back up my claim.

I failed - over and over and over. I finally had to accept that I had it wrong.

Now I wait for proof of efficacy before I go spouting my mouth. Slow learner I guess.

An interesting note: When an athlete strongly visualizes performing a lift or a sprint or similar activity, the muscle fibers will actually fire in the same sequence as if they were actually physically performing the task! Amazing stuff!

The brain body stuff is pretty amazing. Look at what yogis can do, for instance, warming one side of a hand, but cooling the palm - all at the same time.

 

[Arnold]

I thought this need to be reiterated here.

I think what is important to note here is that (this is not directed at you specifically, but rather the entire group):

a) Things are not black and white

b) There is a gray area with all this stuff that we need to sort of embrace

c) Accept the fact that real world results are extremely important

d) Accept the fact that research and being "evidence based" is extremely important

e) And, accept the fact that, while research studies are not exactly replicating what happens in real life (usually) and they have design flaws (every study has limitations); we still need to find/read research and have something to base our opinions/philosophies on.

We all come to conclusions on things that we do, our methodology. Some base their entire methodology on anecdotal reports, which probably isn't good. Others have their experienced based ideas and come to those ideas by reading research and developing their reasoning.

You have stuff that you have read that confirms what it is you know or believe to be "true" just like Built does, and I do and anyone who is a professional does (or should).

However, being open to other ideas and new(er) research is also good. It allows us to further develop our understanding of how things work.

To those who got extremely defensive and went down the road of more personal attacks, this is not good (nor is it professional). Oftentimes, we hang onto and cling to one, or a few, ideas so much that when we go to engage in argument or debate, instead of using reason or logic, we use emotion. It is difficult for us to accept the fact that others are not accepting of what it is we believe. Please, allow yourself to understand that it is okay if people disagree.

patrick

 

[Built]

I thought this need to be reiterated here.

Indeed. Patrick and I both have formal science degrees, and quite honestly, I've found the mental discipline of critical thinking to be a real blessing in my life.

 

[juggernaut]

Indeed. Patrick and I both have formal science degrees, and quite honestly, I've found the mental discipline of critical thinking to be a real blessing in my life.

I'm not bashing on psychology degrees, I was going to get one. I pretty much found a bachelors degree in psychology useless unless you go allllll the way. However, that being said, there are some incredible studies being done in the area of sports psychology. ie, the whole realm of getting psyched up for a show or competition can be very visual, and that would've been something worthy of my time and perhaps a great thesis.

 

[P-funk]

I'm not bashing on psychology degrees, I was going to get one. I pretty much found a bachelors degree in psychology useless unless you go allllll the way. However, that being said, there are some incredible studies being done in the area of sports psychology. ie, the whole realm of getting psyched up for a show or competition can be very visual, and that would've been something worthy of my time and perhaps a great thesis.

any degree these days is a waste unless you go all the way!

my exercise science degree is toilet paper. it doesn't guarantee me a job or give me anything. it is silly that it isn't looked at as necessary to work in this industry, since you can spend years working on getting your degree but someone can get a shitty certification in a weekend course and not know anything.

patrick

 

[gopro]

Actually, that's not true.

I have no opinions on any of this stuff. I don't do what I do based on opinion - I do what I do based on evidence

EXCELLENT! So do I!

 

[juggernaut]

any degree these days is a waste unless you go all the way!

my exercise science degree is toilet paper. it doesn't guarantee me a job or give me anything. it is silly that it isn't looked at as necessary to work in this industry, since you can spend years working on getting your degree but someone can get a shitty certification in a weekend course and not know anything.

patrick

Well put patrick. I had the dumbass notion of becoming a special ed teacher/minored in sports nutrition. Taught gangstas for almost ten years until I burned out completely. My degree is a fucking waste. I will never step foot into a classroom again. My fitness center business is unreal and my personal training side has exploded. My regulars whom I think the world of, keep me challanged and make me look for new and interesting ways to develop their bods.
BTW-my ACSM cert sits in my file cabinet. Not one person as requested it, except my insurance company. NJ is a fucker for that stuff.
People get results and I take pics of them on ongoing process. Some bow out, but others like to see the changes.

 

[P-funk]

Well put patrick. I had the dumbass notion of becoming a special ed teacher/minored in sports nutrition. Taught gangstas for almost ten years until I burned out completely. My degree is a fucking waste. I will never step foot into a classroom again. My fitness center business is unreal and my personal training side has exploded. My regulars whom I think the world of, keep me challanged and make me look for new and interesting ways to develop their bods.
BTW-my ACSM cert sits in my file cabinet. Not one person as requested it, except my insurance company. NJ is a fucker for that stuff.
People get results and I take pics of them on ongoing process. Some bow out, but others like to see the changes.

I didn't know you had your gym. Got a website?

patrick

 

[juggernaut]

I didn't know you had your gym. Got a website?

patrick

Tinton Falls Snap Fitness Center - Fitness Club and Gym located in Tinton Falls, New Jersey

 

[P-funk]

Tinton Falls Snap Fitness Center - Fitness Club and Gym located in Tinton Falls, New Jersey

So do you own the franchise or are you just a trainer at the gym?

That is pretty cool.

patrick

 

[juggernaut]

So do you own the franchise or are you just a trainer at the gym?

That is pretty cool.

patrick

I own it and do PT...actually it owns me!

 

[juggernaut]

and thanks

 

[Built]

EXCELLENT! So do I!

When was the last time you had to change your approach to how you do things?

I've detailed a few instances where I had to change mine.

What rocked your world enough that you had to let go and embrace something new because of irrefutable evidence?

 

[Arnold]

Tinton Falls Snap Fitness Center - Fitness Club and Gym located in Tinton Falls, New Jersey

there is one of those right across the street from me, great concept, I think they charge $20/month, but it's just not big enough for me, so I go to 24 Hour Fitness which is $25/month.

 

[juggernaut]

there is one of those right across the street from me, great concept, I think they charge $20/month, but it's just not big enough for me, so I go to 24 Hour Fitness which is $25/month.

I know. My place is smaller,but I take on Workout World-one of the shittiest franchises in the business. I took a lot of their customers. People know me. I have no office. I thought open-door policy. I have a desk and all, but I have about 500 customers and I could walk in and probably recite 80% of their names. If there is a problem, they know how to get to me. I am thinking of expanding into the next strip store, but that wont happen until September.

Thanks for the props. They are a good idea. Access key only for members is a great selling point.

 

[Arnold]

I know. My place is smaller,but I take on Workout World-one of the shittiest franchises in the business. I took a lot of their customers. People know me. I have no office. I thought open-door policy. I have a desk and all, but I have about 500 customers and I could walk in and probably recite 80% of their names. If there is a problem, they know how to get to me. I am thinking of expanding into the next strip store, but that wont happen until September.

Thanks for the props. They are a good idea. Access key only for members is a great selling point.

It just so happens that the closest liquor store is right next door to the Snap Fitness by me, and one thing I always wondered when I go by there is how do they monitor who goes in? What would prevent someone from letting a spouse, friend, etc. either go in with them and/or give them the key to go work-out?

 

[juggernaut]

its key activated. If you dont pay a bill, I can deactivate you. Your card wont work. If I happen to check the video (I have 8 cameras showing all over), and happen to see Vinny using some girl's card and she doesnt know, I can pick up on it.
True Story: When I first opened in 2007, I had a tanning booth. A good one. When I checked the video every morning, I saw that a couple was using the booth TOGETHER. They were screwing inside. It was rocking back and forth. Its a standalone booth complete with a dressing room. They key needs to activate the door.
When I got in the next day, I cued it and waited for them. I had to tell them to stop the shit. When they came in I asked them both to explain the video. The girl went beet red. Turned out it was his wife's best friend. OH.

On the other hand, I recognize that system isnt perfect, but my members care so much for their place that will spot and tell me everything that is going on and I feel VERY protected by them.

 

[Arnold]

its key activated. If you dont pay a bill, I can deactivate you. Your card wont work. If I happen to check the video (I have 8 cameras showing all over), and happen to see Vinny using some girl's card and she doesnt know, I can pick up on it.
True Story: When I first opened in 2007, I had a tanning booth. A good one. When I checked the video every morning, I saw that a couple was using the booth TOGETHER. They were screwing inside. It was rocking back and forth. Its a standalone booth complete with a dressing room. They key needs to activate the door.
When I got in the next day, I cued it and waited for them. I had to tell them to stop the shit. When they came in I asked them both to explain the video. The girl went beet red. Turned out it was his wife's best friend. OH.

On the other hand, I recognize that system isnt perfect, but my members care so much for their place that will spot and tell me everything that is going on and I feel VERY protected by them.

I figured it probably worked like that, so it really would be easy for two people to use the same membership after hours, you cannot possibly keep track of 500+ members.

 

[juggernaut]

I figured it probably worked like that, so it really would be easy for two people to use the same membership after hours, you cannot possibly keep track of 500+ members.

Most centers are 24 hours. My gym is 5am to 11pm. Yes, it does happen. I cant deny that. But, like I said-everyone knows a lot of people which turned out to be a good thing.

 

[Just_Moe]

gopro--you say you are held tightly to your own convictions of "in the trenches" experience but you also say you had tried it all for over 20 yrs. Now you have the much coveted Holy Grail on body building/fat shedding preparation based on those 20 yrs of self research etc.

Do you feel that over the course of your 20 yrs with trial and errors that you have never been "100% sure" like you are now in regards to keto diets not being "optimal" for shredding down? I mean I am not at all into the diet till you see abs lifestyle but I cannot disparage the research and knowledge that Lyle and the PSMF etc diets he has designed and over explained so even the most basic reader can grasp the benefits to do a keto style diet for contest prep etc.

I am also wondering how a trained athlete of 20+yrs can still manage to naturally be in an anabolic state while doing a contest prep??

 

[P-funk]

Ah..."never being 100% sure!"

This is an excellent question.

I know it wasn't directed at me, but I can say for certain that I am always thinking (and re-thinking) things that I do and the ways in which I explain things to my clients. I am sort of always in this state of cognitive dissonance. I think it is good! It helps keep us searching more more meanings.

Patrick

 

[Just_Moe]

Ah..."never being 100% sure!"

This is an excellent question.

I know it wasn't directed at me, but I can say for certain that I am always thinking (and re-thinking) things that I do and the ways in which I explain things to my clients. I am sort of always in this state of cognitive dissonance. I think it is good! It helps keep us searching more more meanings.

Patrick

right because I know based on my own experience that what I have been sure of 5 yrs ago does not hold true for me today -fitness or otherwise. So I find it a little distracting to read gopro has done this for 20 yrs, tried it all and is still staunch to not consider it can be better for one individual over another even, regardless of his feeling the body always works the same for each individual. It does not.

Even if we could line up say 50 of gopros most successful clients and feed them all the same meals, have them sleep at the same time, train the exact same way with the same amount of volume and load we would not see an exact match in progress, not in fat shedding, atrophy or hypertrophy and I bet a hormone panel would not show us 50 duplicate readings.

My contention is : gopro states "it is how the body works" yet, it is not how each and every body works.

Gopor did each of your 1000's clients reach the same amount of leanness as one another? (Of course compliance offers too much of a variance there.) So all that complied 100% were the results duplicated in each individual?

 

[juggernaut]

gopro--you say you are held tightly to your own convictions of "in the trenches" experience but you also say you had tried it all for over 20 yrs. Now you have the much coveted Holy Grail on body building/fat shedding preparation based on those 20 yrs of self research etc.

Do you feel that over the course of your 20 yrs with trial and errors that you have never been "100% sure" like you are now in regards to keto diets not being "optimal" for shredding down? I mean I am not at all into the diet till you see abs lifestyle but I cannot disparage the research and knowledge that Lyle and the PSMF etc diets he has designed and over explained so even the most basic reader can grasp the benefits to do a keto style diet for contest prep etc.

I am also wondering how a trained athlete of 20+yrs can still manage to naturally be in an anabolic state while doing a contest prep??

Excellent questions.

 

[Built]

Heck, I added 120 lbs of lean mass onto my own frame without drugs

So did I.

Big deal.

Okay, my starting weight was 8 lbs 3 ounces, but still???

Seriously, how old were you when you started, and how old are you now? You competed at what, 220 lbs - you started at 100 lbs at what age?

 

[Just_Moe]

So did I.

Big deal.

Okay, my starting weight was 8 lbs 3 ounces, but still…

Seriously, how old were you when you started, and how old are you now? You competed at what, 220 lbs - you started at 100 lbs at what age?

and by "without drugs" gopro do you mean you have never used any gray area supplements that are now classed as illegal?

BTW Built I was 8 lbs 9 ounces so that is explains our size difference.

 

[Built]

I'm pretty sure he said "lifelong natural".

 

[juggernaut]

Originally Posted by gopro
Heck, I added 120 lbs of lean mass onto my own frame without drugs

So did I.

Big deal.

Okay, my starting weight was 8 lbs 3 ounces, but still…

 

[Just_Moe]

I'm pretty sure he said "lifelong natural".

I wanted a clarification for "natural" because I like to make sure I understand things 100%--no vague areas in my logic.

 

[gopro]

I'm pretty sure he said "lifelong natural".

I spent 1987 to 2003 having used only basic supps...then in 2003, while working for VPX I tried two of their PH's for 2 weeks each (total of 4). Both times I gained 5 lbs and then lost 7 after coming off. Thus..I was left 4 lbs lighter after this experiment. Since then I again have only been on basic supps.

So, I am guilty of 4 weeks out of 22 years of using gray market products, which I went backwards on. I have stated this publicly several times.