Day 1-fitgirl cut

[fitgirl]

Yesterday:
1550 cals
48fat
122 carb
132 protein - too low

Thanks for the breakdown! That helps a lot.

When you say protein shake is it just protein? I do powder, water, and frozen strawberries (fish oil). Is that ok?

I'm finding it really difficult not to snack @4/5 each night. I know it's mostly habit.

Today I'm riding my bike pulling a toddler and then pulling 2 on the way back!

 

[fitgirl]

Yesterday food:

Pre-workout: oats w/blueberries, egg
Post-workout: shake

Salad w/veggies, ham, turkey, white beans, olive oil

Chicken taco w/corn tortilla, avocado, slaw

 

[juggernaut]

fitgirl, do you include any carbs with your postworkout protein on a weight training day?

 

[fitgirl]

As your marathon training ramps up, you'll have to stop trying to drop fat because dieting for weight-loss doesn't make for a very happy body when coupled with a lot of endurance work / cardio. For fat loss, activity should be minimally sufficient and diet should be sufficiently low as to induce a modest deficit. Let the diet get the weight off; use the right kind of activity to convince your body to keep the muscle while the fat slowly starves off.

my first 1/2 isn't until august. I can keep my mileage to 12-15 miles just so I don't lose my base. I'm working on speed until then (have to beat my last time). So I may have to have my carbs in the evening before my long run on Saturday. I can have a sweet potato or another good carb. And just eat for an intense workout that morning. I only run 3 days:

Speed- low miles (3)
Tempo - 4-6 miles
Long - 7-10

Having said that, I want the fat off first

 

[fitgirl]

fitgirl, do you include any carbs with your postworkout protein on a weight training day?

Shake is made w/protein, water, fish oil, frozen unsweetened strawberries.

 

[juggernaut]

Shake is made w/protein, water, fish oil, frozen unsweetened strawberries.

You might want to eliminate the fats in that meal, as well as the strawberries. I'd choose something like old fashioned oats and some honey.

 

[fitgirl]

You might want to eliminate the fats in that meal, as well as the strawberries. I'd choose something like old fashioned oats and some honey.

How much oats? And I have agave nectar, I'm guessing that is the same. Should I be taking the omega 3/fish oil? If so, when?

 

[Built]

Shake is made w/protein, water, fish oil, frozen unsweetened strawberries.

You might want to eliminate the fats in that meal, as well as the strawberries. I'd choose something like old fashioned oats and some honey.

How much oats? And I have agave nectar, I'm guessing that is the same. Should I be taking the omega 3/fish oil? If so, when?

Okay - I need to check with juggernaut why he thinks you need carbs in this meal, and why he thinks you need more fructose.

Fitgirl, I need to check with you why you're eating agave nectar, and if you know how much fructose is in it. I also would like to know if you think of agave as a good carb or a bad carb before I comment.

 

[juggernaut]

Bad call on the honey; I'm usually ravenous by the time the workout is finished. I need FOOD!

 

[Built]

Why are you suggesting a carb in this particular timeframe jugg? It might help us figure out what to feed her if I know what you're considering. I realize fitgirl is an endurance athlete; this is a little outside my usual frame of reference; you may be onto something. I just need a bit more information.

 

[juggernaut]

How much oats? And I have agave nectar, I'm guessing that is the same. Should I be taking the omega 3/fish oil? If so, when?

I usually take in the bulk of my carbs after a workout, again because I'm so freaking hungry.
As for how much? I'd go with a dry half cup.
Depending on the day that I'm having, if it's a busy day and will only get time to eat and run, I will usually take 2 tsp in the morning and 2 again at night, I take a tsp with each meal except the post-workout; if I have no workout planned that day, I space it out because I have more leisure time to relax, taking a tsp with each meal. I eat 4 times daily, and have a half tsp with each meal.
I have no idea what agave nectar is other than it being a fruit.

 

[juggernaut]

Why are you suggesting a carb in this particular timeframe jugg? It might help us figure out what to feed her if I know what you're considering. I realize fitgirl is an endurance athlete; this is a little outside my usual frame of reference; you may be onto something. I just need a bit more information.

Obviously because I'm hungry, and, depending on who you ask, Muaro DiPasquale said that he believes carbs arent essential post-workout, of course he's the author of a CKD diet book (Anabolic Diet) so you really cant take that as gospel; then there are those that preach that carbs with protein after a workout, help in beginning the repair process, according to a study done with cyclists enduring a high intensity workout. Lyle McDonald even goes as far as setting up a workout day called the Tension workout (on both the UD2 and the PSMF) to initialize proper carb utilization.
I am currently carb cycling as per your direction from your writings to use carbs centered around the workout-both pre and post, and feel it is both essential and necessary to continue with strength gains.

 

[Built]

agave nectar is a liquid sweetener made by hydrolyzing agave sap into a mixture of mainly fructose, with some glucose. Agave nectar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's got a lot more fructose in it than sugar, honey, or HFCS. Fructose is the devil.

 

[fitgirl]

agave nectar is a liquid sweetener made by hydrolyzing agave sap into a mixture of mainly fructose, with some glucose. Agave nectar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's got a lot more fructose in it than sugar, honey, or HFCS. Fructose is the devil.

Didn't know that-I happened to have it around (no honey), so I gave it a shot. I will not use it again!

 

[Built]

Thanks jugg, for clarifying. I like some carbs pre and or post workout, depending on my conditioning and my training, but fitgirl is trying to cut, not pack on muscle. I'd skip anything but whatever's absolutely necessary for the intense cardio stuff - remember, she's doing the cardio as sprort-specific training, not the usual fat loss (which it sucks at anyway). I'd feed the sport for performance; feeding for strength doesn't acutely require carbohydrate - she's just doing this part to help harden up and hang onto muscle while she diets off fat.

fitgirl, back to my question to you - what do you think of as a good carb, and why? You and I might have different thoughts around this, given the type of activity you perform.

 

[fitgirl]

As for the other conversation...

J-a lot of runners use honey in place of Gu because it's natural. Just put it in a baggie and bite it open. I use jelly beans, but only on runs of 8-10 miles or more. If I'm running a faster pace ( 8:20 or faster) I can get dizzy with a lack of sugar. Just an interesting side note

So....I am a bit different because I'm a runner and triathlete. Finding the correct balance is a challenge and I'm only running 6 tomorrow.

I can see the oats as a benefit. For example: tomorrow, I will have coffee and a banana (need more for longer runs, but under an hour, that will be fine). Then, when I get home, have protein shake with water,ice,protein,oats. Tonight I will have a chicken burger w/wheat bun.

I love being a guinea pig

 

[Built]

Okay, but I would like you to describe to me what is, to you, a good carb and what is, to you, a bad carb.

 

[fitgirl]

fit girl, back to my question to you - what do you think of as a good carb, and why? You and I might have different thoughts around this, given the type of activity you perform.

good carb-oats, potatoes, whole wheat grains/rices (not processed, so not bread normally). Fruit, but the lower GI, the better for not getting the sugar rush.

 

[Built]

Okay. Thank you for this.

Get away from thinking about GI. Good carbs are things that turn into glucose. Bad carbs are things that turn into fructose.

Fructose doesn't stimulate an insulin response, and that means it can prevent you from feeling fed - which eventually means you eat more. Glucose is the stuff you want, and the speed of delivery you want depends on the purpose.

If you're trying to stay full while eating a high carb diet, you want stuff that digests more slowly, and you want to eat those carbs with stuff that slows it down - in other words, potatoes, oats, sweet potatoes, eaten in a mixed meal with fat and protein. Under this paradigm, you want fibre and stuff that doesn't digest quickly. Faster carbs under this circumstance are bad carbs.

If you're eating a lower-carb diet and trying to briefly spike insulin and promote reglycogenation post-workout, you want something that delivers glucose FAST - for this purpose, white rice, stuff made with white flour, and dextrose are good carbs. They digest and metabolize quickly, and let you get back into ketosis faster if you're looking for ketosis to keep you comfortable and feeling fed. Slower carbs in this context are bad carbs.

I'd revisit some of the fruit, honey, jellybeans etc you're consuming and investigate using dextrose and dextrose candies and gels instead. Except in very small amounts (read: under 20g for the whole day), fructose is a very bad carb.

My .02

 

[fitgirl]

If you're eating a lower-carb diet and trying to briefly spike insulin and promote reglycogenation post-workout, you want something that delivers glucose FAST - for this purpose, white rice, stuff made with white flour, and dextrose are good carbs. They digest and metabolize quickly, and let you get back into ketosis faster if you're looking for ketosis to keep you comfortable and feeling fed. Slower carbs in this context are bad carbs.

I'd revisit some of the fruit, honey, jellybeans etc you're consuming and investigate using dextrose and dextrose candies and gels instead. Except in very small amounts (read: under 20g for the whole day), fructose is a very bad carb.

That would be great-I have the time to experiment!

My .02

So....I should eat bread, crackers, white potatoes? This is very interesting and a total change in my current way of thinking. Are oats OK? When should I eat them? What should my shake consist of?

I'm learning so much here!

 

[Built]

Bread, crackers and white potatoes digest slowly, as do oats and sweet potatoes. White rice, brown rice and dextrose digest more quickly, if they're eaten mostly alone. Eaten with protein and fat, the whole meal digests more slowly, so the "speed" in a mixed-meal is a bit of a moot point.

A protein shake with either dextrose or a slice of toast and a bit of jam - that's a good fast-carb-and-protein combo for immediately post-workout, or just shortly pre-workout if you need something to get in you fast.

I'm a low-carb gal. I don't eat starches through the day because they make me hungry, so I tend to stick to targeting faster carbs if I need 'em around a workout or activity - that way they get in, do their job, and clear quickly. If I eat slower carbs, like white or sweet potatoes, or pulses, I generally eat them at my evening meal because they're more likely to make me hungry then; if I eat them later at night, I go to sleep rather than continue eating. If carbs don't make you hungry, there's no need to limit them through the day of course. You may know this, but I figured I'd mention it just in case.

It really comes down to comfort more than anything - for a given calorie-level, of course. I mean, if you can't stick to your "healthy" diet - think of it this way: it won't work for you if you end up eating too much, right?

 

[fitgirl]

So, it doesn't really matter what kind of carbs I eat, as long as I stay in my goals and I'm not miserable?

Would you then have a protein shake and toast before a run (or any hard cardio) then follow with oatmeal because it's a slow digesting carb? I do find I am more full on protein, but if I don't have enough carbs, I get dizzy and spacey. so I'm not sure where I fall

I will keep experimenting. Looking for the perfect diet...

 

[Built]

So, it doesn't really matter what kind of carbs I eat, as long as I stay in my goals and I'm not miserable?

As incongruous as it seems, yes. It really doesn't matter what kind of food you eat; not just the carbs.

There are really only a few foods I avoid:

• soy (promotes estrogen; interferes with thyroid function)
• flax seeds (interferes with thyroid function)
• flax/Udo's oil (ALA, not enough of it will convert to EPA/DHA)
• transfats (shortening, margarine; they're really better described as plastized oils; your body doesn't know what to do with them)
• fructose (myriad reasons, many outlined above)
• and for the most part, for me, grains.

There's Celiac disease in my family and I suspect I may carry the gene. I don't handle grains well at all. I rarely eat anything made with wheat, rye, spelt, kamut or even oats. You won't find me eating a lot of fruit or drinking fruit juice; I rarely eat honey or dried fruits or candy in anything but very small amounts and I don't eat a lot of baked foods.

I do eat a lot of fat - more than half my caloric intake comes from fat, and I eat red meat almost daily.

But that's me; that's what keeps me comfortable. You may require a different mix. Once you realize the only thing that matters - beyond not living on poptarts and potato chips - is staying comfortable within a calorie-limit, dieting becomes a lot easier to manage. I offer a non-fucked starting point to those who don't know how to eat comfortably.

Would you then have a protein shake and toast before a run (or any hard cardio) then follow with oatmeal because it's a slow digesting carb?

I really don't do a lot of cardio; to be frank, I avoid it because it overstimulates my appetite and makes it too hard to keep my weight under control. You'll have to try it and see if that works for you, but it seems to make sense - let us know how that works out for you. Potatoes, sweet potatoes, and pulses could work, too. Make sure you eat a large serving of protein, though. If it were me, I'd eat protein and fat after any type of cardio, but I don't do cardio to perform better at cardio; you do, so it may be a good idea to do this.

I do find I am more full on protein, but if I don't have enough carbs, I get dizzy and spacey. so I'm not sure where I fall

Try eating more fat with the protein maybe? I feel great on high fat with modest protein and low carbs but not everyone does.

I will keep experimenting. Looking for the perfect diet...

I like to think I narrow the scope of the search.

 

[sassy69]

Off to a great start:
1 egg + 1 cup egg whites
Spinach, ham, goat cheese
Along with my latte

53 g protein, 14 g carbs

So my carbs are too low I'm afraid and I'm so full I feel a bit sick. Off to the gym soon, let's see how long I stay full!

RE: the egg discussion - I talked to my mom this afternoon - she's not heavy, but she's got a high bodyfat % (primarily due to lack of muscle). She typically doesn't eat a lot, and we've gotten into arguments over how much protein I eat (to which I don't say out loud "Yea but my knees don't pop out of joint because I have no muscle holding them there...."). So anyway apparently one of the ladies in her pilates class was talking about great she feels since she started including an egg w/ her breakfast. My mom typically does toast & jelly w/ coffee, and my dad has always been a big fan of cereal w/ milk. So she adds a whole egg in yesterday and she said she had energy all day long and felt great.

I'm like ... ya see! Protein is your friend! I suspect it is also because she's getting more fat and also more calories in general. Weird how that works, huh?

 

[fitgirl]

I do eat a lot of fat - more than half my caloric intake comes from fat, and I eat red meat almost daily.

I don't eat red meat, but I'm agreeing with you on the fat.

But that's me; that's what keeps me comfortable. You may require a different mix. Once you realize the only thing that matters - beyond not living on poptarts and potato chips - is staying comfortable within a calorie-limit, dieting becomes a lot easier to manage. I offer a non-fucked starting point to those who don't know how to eat comfortably.

I really don't do a lot of cardio; to be frank, I avoid it because it overstimulates my appetite and makes it too hard to keep my weight under control. You'll have to try it and see if that works for you, but it seems to make sense - let us know how that works out for you. Potatoes, sweet
potatoes, and pulses could work, too. Make sure you eat a large serving of protein, though. If it were me, I'd eat protein and fat after any type of cardio, but I don't do cardio to perform better at cardio; you do, so it may be a good idea to do this.

Will do. I must admit, I love cardio. I love the high it gives me and the feeling of being out of gas.


Try eating more fat with the protein maybe? I feel great on high fat with modest protein and low carbs but not everyone does.

Lowering my carbs has been ok, but Im finding I still need them. More protein/fat has helped a lot.

I like to think I narrow the scope of the search.

Totally! I've learned a ton. I hope you are being paid for this information in your real life

 

[fitgirl]

Note:I'm responding on my iPad, so i can't do the "quote" thing as well.

 

[juggernaut]

I'd skip fructose based sugars because of the fact they suck as far as energy goes. Dextrose is good, maltodextrin is as well. If you're using it as a pure energy source (glucose) this is exactly what this is meant for. Plus-they're way cheaper.
Built and I had a great discussion about this very topic yesterday, and it seems we're on the same page.

Built, good call on the sport specific thing.

 

[sharoncrunch]

Nice post. I agree with your recommends....

 

[fitgirl]

Update!

A quick update since my diet is changing/has changed.

6 week results:
Weight 125-122/3 (still 5'6")
Chest 32-31
Ribs 29-28
Waist 29-26.5
Belly 33.5-31
Hips 33-32.5

I'm now training, so carbs have increased. I am trying to keep my protein up and will hopefully not lose too much or even get leaner

Upcoming events
Sprint triathlon
Olympic triathlon
1/2 marathon

This fall I will decrease carbs and lift more! I like having a on season/off season goal

Thanks for all the help (especially built)

 

[Built]

Hey there fitgirl - thank you so much, for the update and for the props.